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Knight Swordsman dps promotion class


Durenthal
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The Swordsman promotion class for Knight is listed as melee DPS, but there are some significant problems with it.  As a result, it does less dps than any other dps promotion class.

I've done a comparison with the Myrmidon Titan promotion, which is strong, but not as strong as the Champ Alpha Warrior promotion, for example.

Stat-wise, there's not a huge difference.  Titan gets 105 more Attack Power, and 1.5% more crit chance.

But the Titan has a number of ways to increase its damage output:

  • Frenzy adds 1.25% dmg for each 100 dmg done or received during its duration.  It has an uptime of about 65%
  • Whirlwind generates up to 20 stacks of increased damage (and causes a bleed)
  • Blood Thirst buffs the damage on most Titan powers when hitting a bleeding target (LMB 3 causes a bleed, so does whirlwind)
  • The Titan passive grants up to 25 stacks of a damage buff (for an increase of up to 50% dmg) for 30 seconds after hitting a bleeding target.

The swordsman is so very weak in comparison.

  • The swordsman buff grants a 50% dmg increase to LMB (and only LMB) attacks for 10s after it's triggered (it has a 30s ICD, giving it at best a 33% uptime).  Only one native Knight power can trigger the buff (the first part of the Onslaught combo, and the bleed 3rd part of the onslaught combo).  Also note that that hits the cap for Basic Attack Damage bonus, so anything from jewelry or the passive skill tree goes to waste when the buff is active.
  • If a knight blocks, he gains a stacking dmg buff based on the amount of damage he takes while blocking.   So if a swordsman stops attacking to block for 10s, he can, perhaps, get a 45% dmg buff that lasts 5 seconds.   This is actually a DPS decrease compared to just attacking. 10s of 0dps followed by 5s of 1.5x dps.  That's the same as doing half damage for the 15s.
  • The swordsmanship capstone talent gives a 10% slashing bonus dmg (and cap) benefit.   But every knight power save part of the onslaught combo does crushing damage, because they're all shield attacks.  Even the Ult is crushing.  Note that the Titan capstone power gives 10% slashing and 10% crushing to the Titan.

Titan does not need a nerf.  It fits in well with the rest of the dps promotion classes.  Swordsman needs a buff to catch up to the other dps promotion classes.

Edited to add:

Following up, I'm not asking for wholesale changes to the class or even the promotion class.  I don't want to see swordsman as the LMB "dps for dummies" build.   I actually like the playstyle as is for the most part.  I think the swordsman passive needs to be changed significantly to ramp up damage, and an additional mechanism for increasing dps would be nice.   I would even give up block entirely on swordsman in order to secure more dps (although I note that the Titan literally cannot die with Frenzy active, so I don't think swordsman mitigation is problematic in a DPS class, especially now that it's been nerfed to mail from plate).   Additionally, the capstone should include crushing and slashing dmg bonuses (and cap increases to match), same as the Titan capstone (and others) offer.

 

Edited by Durenthal
added final paragraph
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Swordsmanss got some major nerf which wasnt realy needed in the last patch.
- Cant wear plate anymore
- only 2 keystone can be used to get extra sword skills (Blademaster and Knife grinder, use to have poisoner aswell but not anymore due to passive changes your attacks to do poison dmg instead which makes all ur slashing dmg bonuses useless the keystone should change your bonuses to poison dmg bonus aswell imo)
- Keystone mastery use to be 50% dmg and 50% dmg cap now it 50/20
- Weapon effiency is also pointless now due to Basic dmg cap being met with the keystone alone.

I enjoy playing the knight but in every talent tree they are weak.
- Swordmans probaly the weakest and squishiest melee dps imo atm.
- Secutor requires a pocket healer to stay alive unlike all other tank classes tend to have self sustain
- Sentinel like all CC classes just no no point in even playing.with how retaliate works.

One major problem with Knight atm specifically swordsman is there cap for important stats is way too low to they hit cap soley from talent tree basic dmg capis capped soley off there keystone, power efficiency is capped solely off talents (Normally you get power effiency to boost your basic dmg further but no point for that either. 

Waiting for a balance pass tbh at some point

Twin strike from onslaught combo also has the world worst dmg i feel they missed some 0 in it. Twin strike 15-20 + 17% x2 dmg 




 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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It's not just Swordsman. The entire Knight class needs to be redesigned from the ground up. It's kind of a frankenstein's monster of a class as it was designed before a lot of the game's tech was fully online.

The best part of the Swordsman is its mobility. The 5 second Pursuit cooldown is godly from a positioning perspective.

Secutor is a damage sponge that has the potential to be a great anti-dodge platform but ultimately suffers from the wonky dodge pip/dodge pip removal mechanic where the target will just regen a dodge pip a few seconds later and escape.

Sentinel is probably the least most useful CC spec in the game, partially because many of the CC specs modify the class's base abilities to do additional CC effects. To be frank, the Sentinel's CC potential is lackluster at best.

I remarked the other night that Knight and Champion should be combined to create a new class called Champion. It just feels like a better class all around and fulfills the class fantasy of a frontline warrior far better. The saving grace of the Knight is its ultimate (AoE pull + respectable damage) and Chainpull. Those are the only things keeping them afloat as a class.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Yeah soulein sums it up fairly well only thing good with knight atm is the chainpull (Although mym got there net pull, chain pull a little more smooth then theres), 6 second persuit and the ulti is pretty good but everything and class as a whole is yeah need redone.

Knight survival is shields and blocks which arnt very good in comparison.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I've been thinking about this in my theorycrafting. Imo if ACE wants swordsman knight to be this LMB heavy hitter, the capstone should raise the LMB dmg bonus cap. That's a unique promotion bonus. 

They should lower the damage taken required to gain the block damage buff which also gives swordsman a unique promotion style. 

Secutor needs to be double downed on their ability to take dodge pips, simply because like Soulein said the dodge pip system works against secutor. A bad timing on pip steal can just be unlucky. 

Sentinel is really pretty awful as CC classes go. The only thing it has going for it is CC that cant be retaliated out of (got vortex and chain pull) but that's just base knight so. 

But overall I highly agree with the sentiment that knight, and frankly all the other classes, could greatly benefit from a once over and update.

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I quite like the idea of them being heavy left click hitters problem is the caps dont allow it cause so much gets wasted proficiency gets wasted (It gets coinverted to basic attack dmg if it lowenough, passives tree gets wasted, jewellery gets wasted and so on.
The keystone passive use to raise it by 50% aswell as cap bu 50% now it 50% and 20% cap with this patch (base cap is 30%)

the unique bonus passive caps your basic attack when ever it procs (Knights only have 1 skill to proc it aswell unless they use a major discapline to get more melee attacks that are not shields and which half of them dont work in procing it when they should be able to. it has a rather low proc rate too.
 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, soulein said:

It's not just Swordsman. The entire Knight class needs to be redesigned from the ground up. It's kind of a frankenstein's monster of a class as it was designed before a lot of the game's tech was fully online.

3mnfx5.jpg

certainly far from the only example of that

 

Edited by Tinnis
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Swordsman should gain access to an off hand short sword and greatswords. (this would require additional animations, I know).

The Fortified Shield Slam talent should replace Shield Slam with a charged up AoE spin attack that puts the Swordsman in Parry/Block mode while it's being channeled. (Works for both dual wield and Great swords.

Pursuit needs to be able to work without a shield (may require animation changes).

Equipping an off hand shortsword should enable a new left-click chain with a faster animation speed similar to Ranger/Assassin. Equipping a Greatsword should give them a left-click profile similar to a Champion's. 

The above changes would make Swordsman a decent melee dps when combined with Blade Master, Knife Grinder or Poisoner disciplines without having to change much about the class as a whole.

 

 

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Would also make greatsword have higher demand since more than 1 class can use it then which should help crafters move sword stocks. would be nice to see atleast 2 classes per weapon type just for extra demand (maybe with the exception of pistols since duelist exclusive weapon. staffs could be healer frost weaver weapon option aswell in that regards sickles or frostcaster im not sure though :P

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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29 minutes ago, soulein said:

Swordsman should gain access to an off hand short sword and greatswords. (this would require additional animations, I know).

The Fortified Shield Slam talent should replace Shield Slam with a charged up AoE spin attack that puts the Swordsman in Parry/Block mode while it's being channeled. (Works for both dual wield and Great swords.

Pursuit needs to be able to work without a shield (may require animation changes).

Equipping an off hand shortsword should enable a new left-click chain with a faster animation speed similar to Ranger/Assassin. Equipping a Greatsword should give them a left-click profile similar to a Champion's. 

The above changes would make Swordsman a decent melee dps when combined with Blade Master, Knife Grinder or Poisoner disciplines without having to change much about the class as a whole.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.

I'd even love to go a step further having pursuit apply various effects based on off-hand. Stun with shield, armor break with short sword, extra damage with greatswords. Something like that. 

Giving swordsman the distinction as the heavy LMB class with lots of slashing options sounds really great while moving their heavy defense abilities more towards hybrid defense/offense.

 

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Following up, I'm not asking for wholesale changes to the class or even the promotion class.  I don't want to see swordsman as the LMB "dps for dummies" build.   I actually like the playstyle as is for the most part.  I think the swordsman passive needs to be changed significantly to ramp up damage, and an additional mechanism for increasing dps would be nice.   I would even give up block entirely on swordsman in order to secure more dps (although I note that the Titan literally cannot die with Frenzy active, so I don't think swordsman mitigation is problematic in a DPS class, especially now that it's been nerfed to mail from plate).   Additionally, the capstone should include crushing and slashing dmg bonuses (and cap increases to match), same as the Titan capstone (and others) offer.

I'm going to edit the original post to include the above paragraph.

 

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This looks like the same problem as the Vindicator had plus some other issues.   I was wondering though for an easier solution would giving the Swordmans Capstone a bonus of % to melee bonus powers work on top of it?  We have it as an option in the stats but I'm not sure if any classes actually use it.  This way you keep the LMB that you have currently have and then any of your melee powers would be buffed by a % could even do a % to ranged too. This way a Swordman knight could choose any majors or none but still have a decent bonus to its kit.

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From the patch notes:

The Knight Swordsmanship talent should now increase the damage you deal when wielding a sword with all non-shield melee attacks by 50% for 10 seconds.

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Yeah, I rolled a new swordsman after the patch (my old one only had one major) to test the viability with that single change.

If you're willing to throw away all your shield powers and take two majors with melee attacks, dps output does go up.  It will take some getting used to though.

 

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Hard to tell, need to run to the dummies to test after maintenance.

Edit:  Yes, it's a 30s ICD and a 10s duration, so you get 30% uptime.  Edit again: I've been able to make it trigger after 20s once, so it may well be a 20s ICD with a 10s uptime (but it's not easy to trigger that early).  So in theory you may be able to get 50% uptime.  Realistically, I'd say 40% if you're working hard at keeping it up.

That said, my DPS is significantly improved on my new swordsman when working to maximize slashing dmg and proc the swordsmanship buff every 30s.  Gave up my stun and knockdown though, and in doing so, lost my energy regen from them.

I'm actually happy with swordsman DPS with just the changes made April 1. 

 

Edited by Durenthal
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8 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Is there still a 30 second internal cooldown on the swordsman buff?

If there is it too long i feel if it is 30 seconds

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Cant use poisoner dIsc as a knight either since it changes ur basic attack to poison you loose all your dmg bonuses from keystone and things well anyone but assasins that get poisen dmg bonus 😛

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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