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Duffy

The Root Problem with Crowfall’s Passive Training

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3 minutes ago, Staff said:

ive heard of star citizen of course, just never heard robert space industries attached to it before and you cant expect me to thoroughly research my argument on the internet

Fair enough, then maybe don't comment? I mean knowing what you are talking about is a good foundation for a discussion. Just saying.

At any rate, PM me if you really feel the need to discuss this further, I won't be discussing this topic in this thread any more.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, whisky said:

You said there was no competition, the people that play eve had no where else to go, and while these games may not compete with Eve, they are certainly viable options.

Games no one's heard of and no one plays aren't viable options.

For that matter, Eve has a whopping 649 viewers on twitch at the moment and is hardly a poster child for anything successful.

Edited by Toadwart

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14 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Games no one's heard of and no one plays aren't viable options.

For that matter, Eve has a whopping 649 viewers on twitch at the moment and is hardly a poster child for anything successful.

Twitch is no measure of player base. So, again, nice try on that straw man. Anyway, this conversation has gone on long enough in this thread, start a new one, or PM me.

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I think the most difficult part of the account level training is basically forcing one style on all 6 (or 9) character slots. In PVP, I primarily play ranged dps or healers. if I go the support line, then any non-support/healer classes will not be optimized. If I want a bow ranger, then I have to train great ranged skills which most other classes get no benefit of. I already picked up a second account, because I actually consider myself more harvester/crafter (even though I do love pvp). My main account is Combat/Exploration and my secondary is Harvesting/Exploration. However because I really like crafting, so I am agonizing at picking up a third account so I can do a second crafting specialization. When I played WoW I had one account but had pretty much all of the professions covered. 

I definitely understand the game is meant to be very interdependent, but it seems at times it is too limiting to my play style. 

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EVE Online has been around for about 17 years, peaked at something like 500k subscribers IIRC.

Crowfall would be considered a big success if they were to match that performance.

Not every MMO should be gauged against something like World of Warcraft in terms of success metrics. By the measure of commercial performance Nickleback is one of the top 3 most successful bands of all time, and yet are near universally lambasted as being bland and generic. Go figure.

That being said, just using a passive training system like a similar successful MMO doesn't mean Crowfall will be as successful. I like the paradigm though for how it de-emphasizes the translation of mindless PvE into PvP performance somewhat.

I feel the current passive training implementation in CF is poor, however it could be done well and that is totally feasible.

 

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2 hours ago, Doomshadow said:

I think the most difficult part of the account level training is basically forcing one style on all 6 (or 9) character slots. In PVP, I primarily play ranged dps or healers. if I go the support line, then any non-support/healer classes will not be optimized. If I want a bow ranger, then I have to train great ranged skills which most other classes get no benefit of. I already picked up a second account, because I actually consider myself more harvester/crafter (even though I do love pvp). My main account is Combat/Exploration and my secondary is Harvesting/Exploration. However because I really like crafting, so I am agonizing at picking up a third account so I can do a second crafting specialization. When I played WoW I had one account but had pretty much all of the professions covered. 

I definitely understand the game is meant to be very interdependent, but it seems at times it is too limiting to my play style. 

That is a bit of an oddity, the more time you commit to passive training the less ideal options you have, if you could pivot easier it would be a less problematic choice - hence one of the reasons progressive pip costs is helpful.


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For anyone thinking crowfall will be competing for anything other than a niche market, I'm not sure what to say to you. Even the devs have said and acknowledge they are going for a niche market that hopefully just has enough players that the game can stay stable for a long time. That is what makes EVE a great comparison, a niche game with enough players to be stable for a long time. 

Now, for the passive system. It's fine from a design standpoint considering there is enough active character building inside campaigns. This is the point I feel is really bringing down the passive system. Crowfall has the illusion of choice but frankly there just aren't many meaningful choices IN game. If we get a huge character building system, which the game has potential for, the passive system will do its job. It's not there for any sort of major character building...but simply to provide some small power over time for the players power curve.

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15 hours ago, Jjusticar said:

Crowfall has the illusion of choice but frankly there just aren't many meaningful choices IN game. If we get a huge character building system, which the game has potential for, the passive system will do its job. It's not there for any sort of major character building...but simply to provide some small power over time for the players power curve.

 

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Look at the evolution of leveling over the past years.  Blair consistently makes it more grindy, tedious, unfun, timesink.  Crafting is the same way.  He wants the game to be a looooong tedious grind.  With that in mind, this passive skill training seems perfect!

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A little side tangent about the passive trees in general. 

I personally don't think their should be a passive combat skill tree at all. In a game that is supposed to be about skill and making the right choices, you shouldn't penalize new players just because they weren't there day one. They will already behind on a gear and learning curve, adding another layer will just make this game too unappealing for new players to start. 

If we have exploration and crafting passive skill trees then older players will still have an economic advantage so it isn't like we would be getting nothing for being early adopters. New players could still come in learn, get geared or twinked and compete on the battlefield and let their skill do talking. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tasden said:

A little side tangent about the passive trees in general. 

I personally don't think their should be a passive combat skill tree at all. In a game that is supposed to be about skill and making the right choices, you shouldn't penalize new players just because they weren't there day one. They will already behind on a gear and learning curve, adding another layer will just make this game too unappealing for new players to start. 

If we have exploration and crafting passive skill trees then older players will still have an economic advantage so it isn't like we would be getting nothing for being early adopters. New players could still come in learn, get geared or twinked and compete on the battlefield and let their skill do talking. 

 

I agree with that. I dont like that direct power boosts are tied to time passing versus the opportunity to get those boosts from gear, at least in the latter you can get it right away if you can find someone with an older account to craft for you. However, they appear to have cut most of the bonuses you get for passive combat by half or more compared to what's on live so that may remove some of the sting.

The big advantage of a passive system is letting folks specialize in sub systems, unfortunately Crowfall just doesn't have many sub systems so I think they padded out the training with combat or thought emphasizing the "combat option" was a good idea, even tho almost everyone should take the combat option - making it a non choice for the most part.

Edited by Duffy

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The crafting right now is sub-par because they said they wanted to concentrate on the level 1-30 experience. Even though (IMO) that experience is hampered by the fact that it takes FOREVER just to get 4 pips in the first combat node.

With that being said; npc armor/wpn drops were increased since they were not focusing on crafting this round. This is still just a test afterall; which sucks cause I wanna harvest/craft as well, but right now its not really even worth the time to harvest.

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5 minutes ago, Kryshael said:

The crafting right now is sub-par because they said they wanted to concentrate on the level 1-30 experience. 

What level 1-30 experience? I am seriously asking since this isn't a themepark game with leveled zones/storylines/quests/ect. In this game one can simply(via normal gameplay) be gifted everything to be geared up and leveled up in minutes. In regards to early crafting, dropped loot and lack of economic loop is the reason its in bad shape. How can someone properly evaluate passive skills in relation to crafting with such glaring underlying issues?

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4 hours ago, Kryshael said:

The crafting right now is sub-par because they said they wanted to concentrate on the level 1-30 experience. Even though (IMO) that experience is hampered by the fact that it takes FOREVER just to get 4 pips in the first combat node.

With that being said; npc armor/wpn drops were increased since they were not focusing on crafting this round. This is still just a test afterall; which sucks cause I wanna harvest/craft as well, but right now its not really even worth the time to harvest.

Could you elaborate?

At the current XP speed crafting stuff better than drops is behind about 50ish days of training. Until then there is no reason to craft. Outside of drastically speeding up passive training or changing how crafting skills are acquired that is not gonna change.

Dropped gear was added a few patches ago (which is now almost a year ago) because new folks were struggling to get crafted gear. This patch is meant to reflect launch, so while balance and adjustments are of course expected major feature revamps are unlikely if they require throwing out and starting new systems.


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Duffy said:

Could you elaborate?

At the current XP speed crafting stuff better than drops is behind about 50ish days of training. Until then there is no reason to craft. Outside of drastically speeding up passive training or changing how crafting skills are acquired that is not gonna change.

Dropped gear was added a few patches ago (which is now almost a year ago) because new folks were struggling to get crafted gear. This patch is meant to reflect launch, so while balance and adjustments are of course expected major feature revamps are unlikely if they require throwing out and starting new systems.

Except for a couple things like AA or SS Bows. poisons, and quivers, the first time gated items.    The blue item drops and or all drops need to have far less durability than a crafted version... that would at least change the crafting economy meta some.   If the decent green and blue gear lasted 1/4 or even 1/10 as long... like a few days of heavy fighting so it was easy come-go but a crafted item, even white would have a place at the table when people get over grinding for or buying more useable stuff.   All it would take is to turn the knob on the durability difficulty in experimentation and the base value of the componants…   so say dropped gear has just 250 dura...   that of a good crafted tool.  Crafted gear with just 5 pips white and 40ish experimentation etc gets good dial up on durability right off while other stats have the much higher difficulty and require the crafter to dial back on risk. 

Better Risk-Reward ratio (eased difficulty) for durability rolls 
Lower dura on drops...


So we get longer lasting tools and white gear right off and when we get better gear it has 4-10 times the game life in Durability.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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38 minutes ago, Frykka said:

All it would take is to turn the knob on the durability difficulty in experimentation and the base value of the componants…  

If we must keep dropped gear, I would love to see crafted gear start at green, making white exclusively for upgrading and citybuilding. 

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Back to the original topic....I am that person that came to the game recently who would have chosen a crafter orientation that looked at Live pre-5.10 and realized it was pointless -- one could essentially never be useful compared to vets.  And then after 5.10 on Test, it was again a pointless life for the foreseeable future until passives caught up to drops and one would expect TEST to go to LIVE before that date with a wipe.  So why craft (other than to test mechanics for giggles)?

I generally like a passive overlay and it should add value.  To me the problem is that the passive system is where critical events exist.  Want to be a useful gatherer for your guild -- oh wait, not until you have any shot at bones (fill in rare of choice).  Rather than light switch something at some future date (from 0 to something), start all the abilities out with low rates and let the rates grow with time.  Sure, reward time in with better results, but don't require long time in to be able to start the task at all.

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On 4/4/2020 at 9:38 AM, DaFajah said:

I much prefer passive training. It rewards longevity...

I agree with this, I like the idea that it gives some long-term account progression that doesn't involve me killing ten thousand spiders or crafting ten thousand items no one wants (and allows some balance for people that want to have family/work/life time).

The speed of the training, the layout of the nodes etc are all things that could be fine tuned.


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On 4/5/2020 at 12:55 PM, whisky said:

Twitch is no measure of player base. So, again, nice try on that straw man. Anyway, this conversation has gone on long enough in this thread, start a new one, or PM me.

Its a measure of the interest in the game...

And until you get promoted to forum police, i dont really care whether you think something belongs in a thread or not and i have no intention of PM'ing some random guy about anything.

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7 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Its a measure of the interest in the game...

And until you get promoted to forum police, i dont really care whether you think something belongs in a thread or not and i have no intention of PM'ing some random guy about anything.

But really Twitch is not. 
 

as to the rest of your trolling, off topic post. No, I am not, but I am sure you will get the opportunity to speak with them soon. 

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