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My take on Vandal!


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This is just a short info for ppl who like assassin and how we made it work in small group scenarios.

Your primary goal is denying enemy healer and it works wonder for it. 

The play here is to have desease toxin and have Poisoner disc..Open from stealth, expose into stun, knockdown with diffusion, apply slow demise (heal debuff and awesome dmg), dmg a bit then go into stun and backstab suppression...if any of your teamates dmg him as well the healer is dead beyond doubt...he wont have stamina to retal the last stun and suppression, desease toxin applies blackmantle on diffusion and GG. Works best on cleric healers because of low mobility. This has been tested in small scale and worjs without a fault.

Imo best assassin spec atm.

 

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So a bunch of people attack a Cleric and he does nothing and you guys kill him?  Your assassin would be dead or running way before he gets through all that.  He would literally die in 5-6 seconds.

 

52 minutes ago, Shadow_Disciple said:

This has been tested in small scale and worjs without a fault.

 

Lemme know if you want to test later, in infected or EK.

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25 minutes ago, Ble said:

  He would literally die in 5-6 seconds.

Maybe i should have mentioned that we do have a healer...the comp was Confessor, Druid healer and Assassin. Obviously poorly made dergs can happen, and this isnt a "guide to OP assassin" , this is more of an info for ppl who love Assassins, but are playing other classes cuz of viability, on how to make themselves useful.

It boils down to 2 Stuns and Knockdown to deplete stamina and to stop him from healing, slow demise to heal debuff, blackmantle to negate the healing, and ultimatelly backstab suppression to silence...fortunatelly it only takes 5-6 second to do all this so even if assassin is dead, so is your healer (hopefully).

And if u want to solo gank 1v1 as assassin u just go cutthroat and GG, if ur any good ull be getting frags.

Edited by Shadow_Disciple
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28 minutes ago, Ble said:

I hear what you're saying, just disagree with it.  I guess we can put it to the test or just agree to disagree, your choice. 😘

Let me come by another desease toxin and sure we can test it out. I cant get it myself so i rely on others.

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The "Vandal" suffers from a lot of problems, mainly the way retaliate works and re-stealthing.  As well as a lack of sustain not granted by "Yagas Gift".


Disease Toxin : 
Debuffs your target for 100 healing per Pip.  Pip obtained through - Backstab, being stealthed (with Argent Provocateur), Disengage-Engage and most notebly your LMB.  Assuming you want to get off a max rank Anti-Heal combo you will need 5 Pips.  It's either in your opener or aquired through Melee.  If the former you have a 6m range 500 healing reduction skill costing 5 Pips..  While sounding great, just slot : Plague Lord and you will have a 30m 500 anti healing costing 1 Pip.
Pratically any class can use the discipline… also classes with more sustain and survivability than the Vandal in his shiny Leather armor and X health on "death" from Yagas Gift.

Stun : 
While Stun is a great source of CC, it's also heavily influenced on Retaliate and presently your targets have more Retaliates available than you have Stuns, before being hard CCed, in that timeframe before they are hard CCed, you will be fighting to stay alive while their stamina regneration is extremely fast... giving you a very small window of oppertunity.

Damage/Survivability…
While your Toxins potentially are a desent source of damage, Disease Toxin does no damage, leaving  you with a bleed on your Kidney Shot is the only real damage you will have available.  That being said - the speed per "tick" as well as the "damage done per tick" means you need a LOT of survivability to survival, which you don't have.  Yags Gift is poor at best… nd lastly if you want to enter stealth with your DoTs on a target you have to use your Ultimate.  Giving the whole "re-enter" stealth mechanic a rundown which is purely troublesom to say the least.

Using Dots for damage and Ulti debate.
While you TAKE damage or DO damage of any kind (If you have DoTs on yourself or others) means re-entering stealth is problematic. 

DoTs will keep you in combat.  So while this is all good you have no way to prolong their effect while also being safe in the mean time.  Your sustain and survavibility is extremely low.  So Entering stealth comes at a cost :   You HAVE to have all DoTs on you at under 4 seconds.. otherwise you just get pulled out of stealth.

Once in stealth through Ulti your dots will continue to run..,. yet you will be out of the fight for 1 minute and 10 seconds till your next ultimate is up.. oh wait it's not comming up cause you only rebuild your ulti when DOING or TAKING damage/healing once every 6 seconds… Since your Ulti doesn't remove DoTs.. since it's build -over- time and not on a timer.  Since you only have 1 Ulti… DoTs for a stealth class is -not- a reliable option for PvP.


Yeah I do love the assassin and I think the playstyle they have created for it in Crowfall has the potential to be really good, engaging and fun.  Presently though it's like swimming upstream, there are so many other options which a much more viable and fun.

(Note : I will though add that the new Melee Range 6m, till desync is fixed and the game is better optimized was a really good choice)

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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On 5/5/2020 at 12:21 PM, Soulreaver said:

The "Vandal" suffers from a lot of problems, mainly the way retaliate works and re-stealthing.  As well as a lack of sustain not granted by "Yagas Gift".
Disease Toxin : 
Stun : 
Damage/Survivability…

Stuns and knockdowns drain stamina on retaliate, and ur supress lasts a long ass time. Blackmantle on Diffusion is on 3 sec cooldown, so its 500hp every 3 seconds, and healers dont have that high healing outputs, unlike plaque lord which is on a huge cooldown.

Illusionist is very helpfull because u have very fast attacks speed and you are engaging from stealth which puts you on top of the enemy so your 2 dodges and Disengage/engage is more than enough to stay on target. If u cant stay on Target its a l2p issue..

Survivability is a problem no doubt, but imo vandal is supposed to be played in a group and engage from stealth, as well as having an escape with ult.

 

And ill repeat one thing assassin base stats are extremely low compared to other classes. Vandal at lvl30 white vessel ends us with 400ap, which is laughable compared to Slayer or Champion that cap with glamour weapon. Assassins will scale insanely better.

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1 minute ago, Shadow_Disciple said:

Stuns and knockdowns drain stamina on retaliate, and ur supress lasts a long ass time. Blackmantle on Diffusion is on 3 sec cooldown, so its 500hp every 3 seconds, and healers dont have that high healing outputs, unlike plaque lord which is on a huge cooldown.

Illusionist is very helpfull because u have very fast attacks speed and you are engaging from stealth which puts you on top of the enemy so your 2 dodges and Disengage/engage is more than enough to stay on target. If u cant stay on Target its a l2p issue..

Survivability is a problem no doubt, but imo vandal is supposed to be played in a group and engage from stealth, as well as having an escape with ult.

 

And ill repeat one thing assassin base stats are extremely low compared to other classes. Vandal at lvl30 white vessel ends us with 400ap, which is laughable compared to Slayer or Champion that cap with glamour weapon. Assassins will scale insanely better.

Diffusion vs Plague Lord
Diffusion : Up time vs PiP spendage as you also state you're using Kidney Shot.  Where as you do have a nice up time of 500 anti healing you don't have the utility of Plague Lord... 

So PL : 
- 500 Anti healing
- 25% less healing taken.
- 25% less healing done.
- 30 m range so can be preloaded entering the fight.

Toxin :
- 500 Anti healing with no real CD on application other than : Toxin application chance combined with range vs hitting a target.

CC and Chain... 
Stun : Kidney shot : Cost PiPs meaning u have ramp up time.
Suppresion : Diffusion : cost PiPs meaning you have ramp up time.
Knockdown - If you catch them using a skill with Diffusion - same CC as suppresion double CC ramping up your CC immunity.

So Rampup time = Stamina regenerating and making your CC rather void.   Your CC might run a LONG time, but it's easily nullified and while you can think you're supre strong chaining your abilities, chances are you've most likely not really faced off vs healers that know what they are doing.

As for engaging with Illusionist for the Slow on your 3rd LMB, it's fine, the Slow is though a 2-3 second Slow so you're maybe even better of relying on the Slow applied with Diffusion + Poison Toxin.  So you have to utilize your heavy hitters in these windows of opportunity.  If you can land them.

Scaling
As for scaling "insanely" later… getting to the "late" game.  Vessels - Gear - … oh you mean Crafting.  Gated behind weeks - months of passive skill training.  *nods* Gotcha.

Its cool to see someone giving the Vandal as shot, but lets get real it's a niche build, on a broken class which utilize a lot of different mechanics which are blended together poorly.  While they have the potential to really make for interesting gameplay, ATM that's not the case.

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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4 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Its cool to see someone giving the Vandal as shot, but lets get real it's a niche build, on a broken class which utilize a lot of different mechanics which are blended together poorly.  While they have the potential to really make for interesting gameplay, ATM that's not the case.

This is true, and like i said, this isnt a "OP assassin build" but instead its a "good enough not to be useless" build..also supression awards u 2 pips and doesent consume it, also stun doesent have to be at 5 pips, and stun out of stealth cost no pips. your only pip spender is diffusion and kidney shot.

Plague lord also has 30+ sec CD, so 1 cleanse in group and your whole "preload" is gone for another 30 sec.

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You guys over here talking about how good 500 point heal block every 3 seconds is while I'm just over here spamming aoe volatile ice for 1-1.5k per GCD from range.

Melee is bad and assassin is very near the bottom of all the melee.

Melee needs buffs across the board and assassin needs some love on top of that.

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1 hour ago, Shadow_Disciple said:

.also supression awards u 2 pips and doesent consume it, also stun doesent have to be at 5 pips, and stun out of stealth cost no pips. 

Backstab grants the two PiPs and it's a situational/positional ability.

 

27 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Melee is bad and assassin is very near the bottom of all the melee.

Not near.. it's the bottom Yoink… rock bottom. 

Edit : 

I'm not talking over how good the anti-healing is nor how great being able to spam it every 3 seconds.  Just stating the present state of the game and what's possible.  If we're talking viable anti-healing - then pre-Disease toxin nerf would be the subject. . That though is equally void.

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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1 minute ago, Soulreaver said:

Not near.. it's the bottom Yoink… rock bottom. 

unfortunatelly yes. and thats why we are in Assassin subforum and not mellee or combat tactics. I understand that "the best sht is still sht"...but at least its the best sht. xD

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