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Thundercat7

Spend an evening making a weapon!

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On 5/12/2020 at 11:40 AM, Aedius said:

Full pvp with full loot ?

Not full loot, full inventory loot aka system built for gankers not PVPers.

On 5/12/2020 at 11:40 AM, Aedius said:

It's a niche game

It is.

A game like Albion Online with actual full loot is niche as well but fairly successful because it has a good variety of content. Stripping features/content too far might be a huge drawback to this games success, niche or not.

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On 5/12/2020 at 1:29 PM, DocHollidaze said:

Granted man, I think a lot of folks heavily invested in the crafting side of this game will agree that is can be tedious and the passive training gating on it is problematic, etc.

But I don't think many will be cool with a change in the system that makes it more like World of Warcraft where it is effectively a solo activity that is like a hobby.

I believe ACE is trying to make crafting something that you have to be purposefully investing time into and other players recognize who is good at it and who is not.

As is, Crowfall crafting is a hobby.

I don't have to invest anything effort wise to have a maxed crafting account. I buy an account (main or alt), click train, wait. Take a look at a guide and do some basic learning and ta da I can make the same stuff an actual "Crafter" can with the same resources. 

Not being a hobby would require someone actually putting in the time/effort/skill to reach that point. Dedicating my account, characters, giving up X so I can do Y, etc would be going beyond a hobby. Clicking train is less "investing" time and more staring at the clock.

Obviously I'll probably produce less amazing stuff then someone that actually does it a lot, but that isn't any different then harvesting or combat that don't require the same "investing time" period.

By ACE's own words, they want or wanted Crafting to be a main role that someone could main the majority of the time. Someone that saw some of the early crafting hype, backed the game, and hasn't paid attention would be in for a non pleasant surprise.

Making crafting so vital yet gated makes no sense to me along with making it entirely vertical when it is begging to be horizontal.

Power, progress, performance, ability should be earned and expressed in-game. Not a fire n forget window out of it.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

I don't have to invest anything effort wise to have a maxed crafting account.

This is just not true. No matter how trained your crafting account is, it will not be as good as one that has invested time and effort into the vessel, discs, gear, and thralls. And of course you need high quality materials, which passive training does not provide. And there is some learning curve to doing it right. And it takes considerable time to craft.

It is a huge exaggeration to claim that passive training alone can "max" your crafter, and that you don't have to invest anything.


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2 hours ago, APE said:

As is, Crowfall crafting is a hobby.

I don't have to invest anything effort wise to have a maxed crafting account. I buy an account (main or alt), click train, wait. Take a look at a guide and do some basic learning and ta da I can make the same stuff an actual "Crafter" can with the same resources. 

Not being a hobby would require someone actually putting in the time/effort/skill to reach that point. Dedicating my account, characters, giving up X so I can do Y, etc would be going beyond a hobby. Clicking train is less "investing" time and more staring at the clock.

Obviously I'll probably produce less amazing stuff then someone that actually does it a lot, but that isn't any different then harvesting or combat that don't require the same "investing time" period.

By ACE's own words, they want or wanted Crafting to be a main role that someone could main the majority of the time. Someone that saw some of the early crafting hype, backed the game, and hasn't paid attention would be in for a non pleasant surprise.

Making crafting so vital yet gated makes no sense to me along with making it entirely vertical when it is begging to be horizontal.

Power, progress, performance, ability should be earned and expressed in-game. Not a fire n forget window out of it.

If this were true, G-wizz, I must be all set and completely self-sufficient in the live build ...  

with my thirteen accounts all completely maxed in their individual passive specializations?   

But it's not true.   I'm far from all set, even while playing regularly and being very active since the live server had it's last avatar/inventory wipe?  Why is that? 

Hmmm, lets see here; every account needs a max level avatar with sufficient spec's.  Each individual avatar needs the correct disciplines... recipes and/or knowledge... crafting and/or harvesting armor... jewelry... tools... foods/potions... mat's... (special dropped) additives... dust/embers... etc.  (and/or gold, trading stock, friends, etc.) ... 

otherwise, quoting you,  "Obviously I'll probably produce less amazing stuff" as you have inferred...  But actually;  Obviously you will produce undesired garbage and flawed rejects... umm... much more likely  😉    (Every spec account requires play & time invested to become viable... and most certainly to ever become 'maxed' as you have inferred above?)  

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Jah said:

This is just not true. No matter how trained your crafting account is, it will not be as good as one that has invested time and effort into the vessel, discs, gear, and thralls. And of course you need high quality materials, which passive training does not provide. And there is some learning curve to doing it right. And it takes considerable time to craft.

It is a huge exaggeration to claim that passive training alone can "max" your crafter, and that you don't have to invest anything.

lol... dang, ya beat me to the punch Jah  😉  ... my multi-tasking cost me

Edited by Silkhe

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2 hours ago, Jah said:

This is just not true. No matter how trained your crafting account is, it will not be as good as one that has invested time and effort into the vessel, discs, gear, and thralls. And of course you need high quality materials, which passive training does not provide. And there is some learning curve to doing it right. And it takes considerable time to craft.

It is a huge exaggeration to claim that passive training alone can "max" your crafter, and that you don't have to invest anything.

I meant specifically to passive training.

All characters need the items you listed to be playable, but passive training impacts roles differently. I can technically be handed all those things without any effort. Everything has a learning curve as well.

If all three are meant to be playable as "main" options then they shouldn't gate progress/access. If combat is the starter role with the others opening up fully over time, that's fine, but not how the design was originally described.

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2 hours ago, Silkhe said:

If this were true, G-wizz, I must be all set and completely self-sufficient in the live build ...  

with my thirteen accounts all completely maxed in their individual passive specializations?   

But it's not true.   I'm far from all set, even while playing regularly and being very active since the live server had it's last avatar/inventory wipe?  Why is that? 

Hmmm, lets see here; every account needs a max level avatar with sufficient spec's.  Each individual avatar needs the correct disciplines... recipes and/or knowledge... crafting and/or harvesting armor... jewelry... tools... foods/potions... mat's... (special dropped) additives... dust/embers... etc.  (and/or gold, trading stock, friends, etc.) ...

I didn't mention anything about self-sufficient or attempting to do what it should take 13 players to do...

I did point out that my example factored in having the same resources available (vessel, gear, friends, insert things).

If you actually do have 13 accounts with maxed passive training, that shows exactly what I'm pointing at. If you had to actively train 13 crafts, that is being a truly dedicated crafter. it isn't a "hobby."

In Crowfall you just click train and wait. You can go about doing whatever else in the meantime like obtaining all the Disc, gear, rocks, whatever for when you are at a progress point to make use of them. Going by what some are saying, actually trying to craft until a certain point is almost if not a waste of time.

If you played 1 account as games are intended, obtaining all the things shouldn't be a huge ordeal.

2 hours ago, Silkhe said:

otherwise, quoting you,  "Obviously I'll probably produce less amazing stuff" as you have inferred...  But actually;  Obviously you will produce undesired garbage and flawed rejects... umm... much more likely  😉    (Every spec account requires play & time invested to become viable... and most certainly to ever become 'maxed' as you have inferred above?)  

I agree but why is crafting gated compared to combat and less so harvesting?

BTW I don't like CF's crafting system and general don't in most games. I just like things to work well. Crafting is supposed to be a main role and I don't see why it is treated differently.

Just find it funny how players and devs look down upon MMO systems that have active progression because it makes it a "hobby" when I see how Crowfall's works. Both require you to know what you are doing and having the right resources. One allows you to progress with no effort while the other requires you to actually do the thing along the way. What's worse is doing the same vertical color gear grind and not breaking away from the tired mold. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, APE said:

Just find it funny how players and devs look down upon MMO systems that have active progression because it makes it a "hobby" when I see how Crowfall's works. Both require you to know what you are doing and having the right resources. One allows you to progress with no effort while the other requires you to actually do the thing along the way. What's worse is doing the same vertical color gear grind and not breaking away from the tired mold. 

The down-sides to active progression systems have been clearly stated many times;  

It all too often excessively rewards neck-beards and botters/script-writers... while unfairly penalizing active players that work long hours or that are simply unable to play long hours (while not cheating the system).  

Passive progression is quite fair and even.  It doesn't discriminate.  I certainly hope that it stays in CF (regardless of time-gates and/or required patience).   It certainly could use more tweaking & tuning, but I for one like it, and I generally like crafting/harvesting as well (as long as it is ultimately rewarding & worth my time and energy)  

But certainly, I am not opposed to a fair active progression catch-up mechanic, for those that start the game later on down the road (or those that are unable to log-in & play for whatever reason).  As long as those players that are 'catching up' are unable to surpass the dynamic passive progression 'max'... and as long as it requires reasonable/adequate effort.  However, this would likely be a difficult system to implement well, and without many issues.   

Edited by Silkhe

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Posted (edited)
On 5/14/2020 at 3:34 AM, Silkhe said:

The down-sides to active progression systems have been clearly stated many times;  

It all too often excessively rewards neck-beards and botters/script-writers... while unfairly penalizing active players that work long hours or that are simply unable to play long hours (while not cheating the system). 

MMOs are built on unfairness. Those that have more time, money, friends, skill, etc have an advantage. Strong roll the weak. Crowfall is not an exception. Joe gamer isn't going to hop into CF and be amazing because there is a passive system.

Not sure why a game made for thousands should be built around overly casual people that can't play the game. Backwards thinking.

On paper the idea of passive training sounds great, in practice it doesn't change anything, at least not this design. If it was more options/horizontal that would be something different.

Other Games: Level once. Pick specialization that likely can be rerolled. Chase the gear grind. Do additional levels if added. Players control the speed in which they reach whatever end point.

Crowfall: Likely level over and over with the same race/class/promo. Pick specialization that can't be rerolled without remaking a character. Chase the vessel, gear, discipline grind. Guild performance is based on the amount of whatever form of grind players do. Clock controls passive progress.

Please explain to me how someone with more free time isn't going to have an easier time then someone that isn't able to play long hours and has a life be it independently or compared to other modern games. Also which games in recent times are completely one sided where a casual player can't enjoy themselves?

Albion Online is a modern example of a game that manages to balance casual, no lifers, PVE, PVP (full loot scary), solo/small & large scale content, and has active training.

Quote

Passive progression is quite fair and even.  It doesn't discriminate.

Passive system is fair in that we all have to deal with it. It is a solution for itself. 

Within the system, the three options (roles) aren't equal, which was the point of my earlier comments. Passive training isn't going anywhere, but the design of the current model could use work when it comes to gating progress/access to making all three equally valued by new and old accounts.

Quote

But certainly, I am not opposed to a fair active progression catch-up mechanic

However, this would likely be a difficult system to implement well, and without many issues.   

Why have catch up if it is fair and even? If I had to wait X time to train, shouldn't everyone? If the point is I am investing my time for the reward, I don't believe others should be handed the same reward just because they came late. I put in all the effort and earned all my training across my accounts, I had to click train on each and wait. :rolleyes:

Edited by APE

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On 5/12/2020 at 12:43 PM, Thundercat7 said:

This system needs serious work. I don't even know where to begin. All I know is that I want no part of it.

I couldnt agree more. The crafting system is so bad, so off-putting, it literally makes me want to log out of the game as well.

What's wrong with it?

[1] the complexity is ridiculous.

[2] The amount of clicking, dragging, searching ... did i mention clicking and dragging?

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28 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

[2] The amount of clicking, dragging, searching ... did i mention clicking and dragging?

You don't have to click and drag.


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@Toadwart Right clicking works, but if you open other windows(ie a trade) while crafting the game does not know how to prioritize what you are right clicking and stops and you have to close and reopen the crafting window. In theory dragging is not required.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ConstantineY said:

@Toadwart Right clicking works, but if you open other windows(ie a trade) while crafting the game does not know how to prioritize what you are right clicking and stops and you have to close and reopen the crafting window. In theory dragging is not required.

You don't even need to close and reopen the crafting window. You can just click on the crafting window to make it the current focused window.

You can right click to add items to the crafting window so long as it is the focused window. You can tell which window is currently focused by the blue glow around the border of the window.

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Edited by Jah

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