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Retaliate and control classes


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Right now, control classes are a joke, they are not effective because everyone got like 3 retaliates and a ult that make them imune to control skills. 

 

I think that it needs a better balance, less stamina regeneration or more stamina use on each retaliate, or maybe a cooldown at it, so ppl cant just keep retaliating everything all day long.

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I did not like the retaliate system at first, but I think I have come full circle to appreciate it. As long as stuns can stop combos and waste global CD's and frame lock you in recovery animation, the CC is there.  I do think that having CC promotion classes in a game designed to punish/limit CC is foolish, for the CC classes to have any viability they do not need almost useless stats like hard control intensity, they need to effect stamina in some meaningful way, making CC last longer does not matter because it is only the length of time it takes to hit the R key that matters.  This does not really fit into the design principle behind the retaliate system though.  It is my wish the CC classes were changed to be utility classes.  Debuff platforms and tanky force multiplier style classes.   

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compare a cc class, fury, with a non cc class: paladin.

paladin is much much much more usefull in a party than a fury. Fury cant sustain its pips, the damage is very near between them, the CC fury has is not much usefull and it does not heal as a paladin. No point in making one.

They need a better balance for CC classes.

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9 hours ago, ConstantineY said:

I did not like the retaliate system at first, but I think I have come full circle to appreciate it. As long as stuns can stop combos and waste global CD's and frame lock you in recovery animation, the CC is there.  I do think that having CC promotion classes in a game designed to punish/limit CC is foolish, for the CC classes to have any viability they do not need almost useless stats like hard control intensity, they need to effect stamina in some meaningful way, making CC last longer does not matter because it is only the length of time it takes to hit the R key that matters.  This does not really fit into the design principle behind the retaliate system though.  It is my wish the CC classes were changed to be utility classes.  Debuff platforms and tanky force multiplier style classes.   

I think the retaliate system works fine for non CC class as combo interupters and things however those classes that sacrafice alot for CC intensity and things need some way to counter retaliate.
As it stand now CC class rolls have no place in Crowfall until they have a way to make there CC reliable in some way or another. If they doint plan to do that they may aswell remove those specs so people dont screw themself by taking it and give them something else instead.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Another way to possibly give these promo classes some use would be to replace their control talents with defensive talents.   We do not even have any classes trying to function around large health pools.  Confessors and SC are realistically much more survivable than a Conqueror.  If the control talents in conqueror were replaced with say ~3000 points of hp or % dmg reduction or some other form of strong mitigation.    If these classes were more survivable, then the constant disruption of 2-3 aoe abilities might find it's place, it might not.

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What if the Intensity stats instead of "Making the CC you apply last longer" made it increase the amount of time a person cant retaliate after being hit with a CC, up to 100% of the CCs time.

Examples:
-Player A hits Player B with a 3 Second stun and has no Hard Control Intensity , Player B could retaliate instantly or any time before the CC wears off
-Player A hits Player B with a 3 Second stun and has 50% Hard Control Intensity, Player B could retaliate any point after 1.5 seconds
-Player A hits Player B with a 3 Second stun and has 100% Hard Control Intensity, Player B would not be able to retaliate for the full duration

Then if they did something like that they could have that play into control defense so a person with control defense is still reducing the amount of time the CC lasts so using previous example 3; if player B had enough Hard Control Defense to reduce the stun to 50% duration then Player 3 will still have to suffer the full stun but the duration of the stun is reduced to 1.5 seconds so they are stunned for 1.5 seconds total instead of 3

And for Movement control maybe just leave it as is, cause i dont think you can retaliate slows and stuff anyways.

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  • 5 weeks later...

In my opinion they should remove all AoE CC abilities from DPS promotions, xcept single target stuns. All AoE CC should be put on CC promotion classes.If you want to do CC pick CC promotion class, you shouldnt be a beast in dps and at the same time do the same amount of CC as a CC promotion. All tank promotions should get pulls and slows/dodge pip removal. CC can be added on disciplines but picking a dps promotion locks you out of that discipline. All CC abilities should drain Stamina when affected by it. Retaliate should be also on CD and after a player is affected by CC he should get imunity to the same CC for a duration but still be open to other type of CC.

As it is now every class promotion can do CC and thats why we have CC fest, but overall it is meaningless because of retaliate .At this point if you pick CC promotion you are gimping youself,DPS promotion can do same amount of CC and can dish out dmg at the same time.

Example on Confessor:

Way it is now.

Fanatic promotion has acces to AoE knockup/knockdown, Tornadoes that also deal AoE knockup/knockdown,single target stun,can use disciplines that add AoE root.

Inquisitor promotion has acces to AoE knockup/knockdown, Tornadoes that also deal AoE knockup/knockdown,single target stun,can use disciplines that add AoE root, conemnation applyes slow(you have to be close range which you dont want to do as a leather class)

Sanctifier promotion has acces to AoE knockup/knockdown, Tornadoes that also deal AoE knockup/knockdown,single target stun,can use disciplines that add AoE root. Doesnt have any Gap closer or pull.

Way it should be in my opinion.

Fanatic promotion: no CC xcept single target stun, Tornadoes do more dmg, Fire wave should be a fire wave and do more dmg,remove fiery blast.Locked out of any disciplines that have CC.

Inquisitor promotion: Tornadoes and fiery blast should deal knockup/knockdown and drain stamina.Single target stun, third basic attack applies slow,open to disciplines with CC.

Sanctifier promotion: With last pip in talent tree you should get pull ability that applies slow and charge ability,Tornadoes should deal dmg and apply root,fire wave deals dmg,fiery blast debuffs instead of knockup. Condemnation applies slow and healing from it needs to be increased.

So far only Cleric and Templar has similar things,but no lock out from disciplines.

All knight promotion have acces to aoe knockdown ,all ranger promotions have acces to Aoe root/surpress etc

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As far as im concerned all Hard CC abilities so knockdown/Stuns should be removed from all DPS classes (Discapline that offer a stun/knockdown shouldnt be available to DPS classes using a trait to block that now that is a thing) or if they do take that disc the stun gets downgraded to say a root instead if you dont have the trait you should gain by taking a CC/Tank spec.
Im ok with knockbacks (How ever i feel airborne shouldn't block you from using skills/abilities that it does now)/roots/slow and any CC that doesnt completly knock you out should be available to all classes/spec maybe less abundant however.

There one thing i disagree with blindreaper is that not every tank should get a pull and pip removeal skill because they more or less make them the same to a degree, i like how knight get the pull and dodge removal that like there only redeeming feature that makes them different than say the other melee tanky/CC options.

AOE hard CC should only be available to CC specs and soft CC should be limited to 3 targets i feel max unless your a CC spec where it shouldn't have a target limit or atleast much higher 10 targets for making plays during sieges.

Also feel shadowboi is right in regards to CC intensity/defence where CC put retaliate on CD per say when a CC spec class hits somone where duration is based on intensity vs defence would make those stats useful where atm there pointless (CC defence and intensity shoul be a stat option i think aswell (Intensity on weapon and armor gets the defence)

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Personally, I'd have sooner preferred right click to be a real iFrame that costs stamina, put retaliate on a short cooldown and remove its link to stamina, make a pass on the Resolve system so CC immunity makes more sense, and make a pass on CC balance in general (roots in particular are way too low risk for way too much reward atm, they simply last too long).  Make it so the length of time of each CC greatly diminishes by the 3rd time the same CC is used on you, let the resolve bar fill in a recognizable way, make it fill faster from knockdown and stun, a full resolve bar means full immunity (any CC only slows or staggers for a split second) and it lasts for a few seconds.  Let the defensive disciplines that give special retaliates fill resolve faster, maybe even a slightly shorter retal cooldown depending.  Retaliate in this way can have a 10 or 12 second cooldown.  One hard CC, they retaliate out, they get hit by two more CC and their resolve bar is full, getting hit too much and too quickly with CC can then mean normal retaliate is available again within a second or so after the resolve bar empties completely and they're vulnerable again.

There is plenty of tweaking that can be done to make it feel right in a system like this.  A place to start could be knockdowns, stuns, and roots being ignored completely with a full resolve bar (at most causing a brief stagger that interrupts a combo and/or causing a quickly fading snare of 50-100% move speed ending in 1/2 or 2/3 of one second) while other forms of CC would either be reduced in effectiveness (a 40% slow might be reduced to say 15%) or in length of effect (a 5 second blind would become 1 second).  Furthermore, CC classes could then have one skill in particular that breaks resolve bars, giving them real value in a fight.  These abilities would themselves be CC, but if used against an opponent buffed by Resolve from a filled bar, they would cleanse the Resolve buff, allowing that target to be CC'd again as normal.  Or, they could affect how quickly resolve builds, or how quickly it fades.  The Templar CC tree, Divine Light could significantly reduce how quickly Resolve builds, as an example, making enemies prone to CC effects longer.  Or, it could ignore certain soft CC resolve protections, such as applying a full length and full power slow regardless of resolve.  There is a lot they can do to make all of this more interesting, more impactful, and more viable while also making CC feel fairer and its application (and that of Retaliate and Dodge moves) more rewarding at higher skill levels.

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  • 3 months later...

old thread but bumping it, the game with CC right now is to deplete the enemy stam bar, because retaliate exists..  why not change the retaliate cost on CC to be relative to the the length of time remaining. this would allow CC spec classes to have greater impact on the enemy's stam bars, which is the game right now any way... run them out of stam and you win the CC war.

i agree that all classes have to many CC options, and would like to see more defined roles.. when you roll something like arbiter only to realize that you waste half of your cooldowns on CC immune targets(that just retaliated) or your DPS hits and AoE Knock down at the same time you do its like.. why am i here? why does this class even exist. 

and yes for the love of god if i am speced in to CC let me control at least 10 people. 5 v 5 rarely happens. and on skills like "Big hand of god" lift the cap completely.. also why is that skill no longer a pulsing root field? it's complete poo now

 

i would not be against having the ability to atk the stam bar directly too.. which is indirectly what im proposing any way

 

Edited by ferrat
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Maybe CC classes should come with strong debuffs that remain after the CC is countered. So then the act of using that CC still has an effect even if it is countered.

Something like -50% incoming heals for 15 seconds after the CC spell effect ends.

I dunno, just spitballing.

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In DAoC CC was in many ways the anti-Zerg tool. I think originally there was no way out of it unless you were damaged, so a skilled smaller group could stun/mez the bulk of the Zerg then focus down targets.

I hated standing there unable to do anything but if it happened, it was usually because of skilled opposition not RNG or unbalanced systems.

I think there should be some CC’s that are not subject to retaliate. 

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The way they changed CC immunity its actually viable right now, to drain your stam, interrupt combos etc. on my SC if a slayer is good i can never get my combo off, granted pepperbox needs a higher CD but thats a different thread

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9 hours ago, Ravenstorm said:

Maybe CC classes should come with strong debuffs that remain after the CC is countered. So then the act of using that CC still has an effect even if it is countered.

Something like -50% incoming heals for 15 seconds after the CC spell effect ends.

I dunno, just spitballing.

This could be an interesting mechanic CC changes or not.

A CC class that become more dangerous if you retaliate its attacks. Basically a two layers trap. I really like the sound of that...

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3 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

This could be an interesting mechanic CC changes or not.

A CC class that become more dangerous if you retaliate its attacks. Basically a two layers trap. I really like the sound of that...

I would like to see each CC class have a special talent that make it easier to CC.

Knight could get a talent that makes shield slam disable retaliate for 5 seconds (+/- depending on CC intensity/CC defence)
Mym (Assuming they have a CC build i dont play them) Could get a talent that gives ability stamina damage wearing them down to CC chain
Assassins could get a talent that allow a new type of poison that prevent CC immunity buff from being applied so they can combo stuns through retaliates (You can try and get back up again but im putting you right back on that floor) i see assassins as a chain attack combo class so i think its works to allow them to chain knockdowns when they retaliate one by going through the immunity. (Could give diffuse a stun on 5 stacks for that class aswell so they can stun combo into a diffuse to stun them again if they try retaliating
Templar CC class could burn (Holy dmg maybe) and heavy slow (Allow them to stick better to target which is an issue with templars) people who retaliate so heavily penalises people who retaliate them so it might be worth staying knockdown or know you have to ulti instead of use retaliate.

Just a few i thought of on the spot
 

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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