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ConstantineX

Please promote PvP activities

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I have been a backer since kick-starter and followed along somewhat over the years.  About a year ago I spent 5 months playing and testing 5.10 out and got burnt out by the low population that seemed to prefer hanging in Gods Reach, then even in zones where you could pvp it was always difficult to find.  So I decided to drop out of running/arthritis simulator for awhile and come back for Dergs.  I was a little late and only got to play a couple days of the last one that was up, and it was phenomenal.   I have been playing since because I do love your game, but I am tired of how difficult PvP is to find in this game. Seriously world PvP in WoW was easier to find.  I understand that my current play experience is not the focus and launch is the teams focus, fully respect that.  However if a dregs campaign is something very difficult to produce at this time, I would like to offer alternative temporary solutions.

1. Quit letting people farm anything of value in GR, the risk/reward is clearly off if 2/3 to 3/4 of the game population is playing in GR

2. Shrink infected to 1-3 zones.  These worlds are set up for 2000 players correct?   Adjust them to reflect our current state please.

I don't know exactly, but I do know that I feel absolutely zero incentive to PvP in this game other than the fact I enjoy it. Many players do not want to risk their gear/time when they have nothing to gain. Infected does not fulfill that gap stop between GR and Dergs,  realistically GR is the superior place to farm .   If adjusting the Infected/GR maps to reflect the "risk v reward"  we were told about is possible, it would make not having Dergs somewhat tolerable.   

 


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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Agree completely on those 2 points. 

GR for leveling and learning until NPE exists. No farming.

Infected to do friendly PVP and experience the game loop.

Makes no sense to allow GR safety farming nor having multiple empty maps. Unless the servers would melt with <100 spread across ~3.

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1. Quit letting people farm anything of value in GR, the risk/reward is clearly off if 2/3 to 3/4 of the game population is playing in GR.

Yeah cause the pvp zones are so damn populated. Some people do not like the risk, they do not like being the chained goat for the stalking wolves. Surely if you force them into wasting all their work if they get caught by the wolves they will find it to be fun!  This argument has been had over and over for years. Yet the pvp'ers never seem to acknowledge it has been tried and failed over and over.  The gatherer types will leave. Then the wolves get bored only fighting dwindling numbers of wolves and leave as well. 

Have no real risk farming for the folks who enjoy it. Limited advancement but with rare chances at some better things in small scale to keep things interesting. When the ability to progress dies completely then the risk averse leave.  When they leave the game gets smaller and less interesting. Make breadcrumb trails to better, faster, advancement in tiers of risk going up to full on Rank 10 Dregs smashmouth gameplay. But if someone is playing away, dinking at Rank 5 nodes and having fun, why does that hurt the pvp'ers?  If they get mats to help another then you can go kill that other person when they go to the dregs. Where if that risk averse player quits then the world is more shallow, less populated and less chances of people getting hooked socially.

They have the ability to make many rulesets, many worlds to cater to a bunch of people. Not everyone is going to walk into the thresher that is dregs and enjoy it. If they do not enjoy the game they will quit. And ACE gets no more money. And of course when people talk about anything. they sell the bad way harder than the good.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, srathor said:

But if someone is playing away, dinking at Rank 5 nodes and having fun, why does that hurt the pvp'ers?

As someone who has been playing the last few days with the soly intent of upgrading my gear and making money I gotta say I find the pace currently at Infected pretty damn good. I can just keep moving between Elites for hours while having a good time, the ocasional PVP is fun too. But I think if I was getting into fights constantly and getting to fly to respawn all the time I would probably just give up.

As someone running on whites and with a jank build I am having a blast trying to come up with a way to kill a damned Chief. And I will do it.

My point is not everyone is trying to cheat the system. Some of us are either trying to get actually ready to fight, get experience, and/or just chill and have fun. I happen to be doing all three and couldnt honestly care less about all the junk I got.  (Seriously, my bank is actually full)

Y'all just feeling Dregs withdrawal. I get you guys missing that PvP rush but we cant just go about messing things to make a fake dregs available. It will come back, dont mess things up trying to make a temporary fix.

However, if you guys wanna talk about actual rarity adjustment I can agree it feels a  tad too good. I would, for example, trade the random blues I got for more greens. Maybe it is because they are the wrong class, but I feel I shouldnt be getting blues before I have made a complete green set.

I also heard the chiefs sometimes drops purples? That is way to good IMHO. Shouldnt be here, that I agree.

But that is IMHO more of general problem in CF than a GR problem. We skip tiers too fast. They are basically meaningless.

Like, the mount saddle I bought today is blue. Why? What does that mean? Could I have gotten a green one cheaper? Colors are pretty meaningless. Arent blue items supposed to be pretty awesome? Again, tiers feel like they dont matter.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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54 minutes ago, srathor said:

Yeah cause the pvp zones are so damn populated. Some people do not like the risk, they do not like being the chained goat for the stalking wolves. Surely if you force them into wasting all their work if they get caught by the wolves they will find it to be fun!  This argument has been had over and over for years. Yet the pvp'ers never seem to acknowledge it has been tried and failed over and over.  The gatherer types will leave. Then the wolves get bored only fighting dwindling numbers of wolves and leave as well.

Albion Online has full loot of gear and inventory and as of this month they are claiming 500k monthly users. People still spend their time as gatherers, transporters.

World layout, conquest, resource/reward distribution, risk vs reward.

It's about the execution and game design.

54 minutes ago, srathor said:

They have the ability to make many rulesets, many worlds to cater to a bunch of people. Not everyone is going to walk into the thresher that is dregs and enjoy it. If they do not enjoy the game they will quit. And ACE gets no more money. And of course when people talk about anything. they sell the bad way harder than the good.

I agree but there should be a natural progression that separates tiers of players with risk v reward factored in. This requires ACE figuring out how to split the population appropriately and making rulesets that don't remove risk v reward.

Whatever farmed in GR (if anything) shouldn't have value in the Dregs or higher tier Campaigns.

IMO only a set of gear and a handful of gold should be exportable from GR, and or anything gained can only be brought into Infected campaigns. Then players start the soft campaign of Infected with a limited amount exportable to Dregs/Faction campaigns. There needs to be a way to reward risk. No clue if ACE knows how to code such things, but it likely needs to happen or we'll have people leaving GR in poor gear, hoping in Dregs and getting stomped and crying about it. No import is also an option but kind of defeats the purpose of several aspects of the game.

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1 hour ago, srathor said:

Some people do not like the risk, they do not like being the chained goat for the stalking wolves. Surely if you force them into wasting all their work if they get caught by the wolves they will find it to be fun!  This argument has been had over and over for years. Yet the pvp'ers never seem to acknowledge it has been tried and failed over and over.  The gatherer types will leave. Then the wolves get bored only fighting dwindling numbers of wolves and leave as well. 

I agree, but would like to point out that without paperdoll looting its even worse for the gatherer. 

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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

But that is IMHO more of general problem in CF than a GR problem. We skip tiers too fast. They are basically meaningless.

Like, the mount saddle I bought today is blue. Why? What does that mean? Could I have gotten a green one cheaper? Colors are pretty meaningless. Arent blue items supposed to be pretty awesome? Again, tiers feel like they dont matter.

would locking out tiers above green in GR, above Blue in infected, ect help? If we had more vessel slots I could easily see me wanting to have kitted vessels of different tiers, well not sure about white...

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I agree, but would like to point out that without paperdoll looting its even worse for the gatherer. 

Yeah thats a big problem with this game is the risk vs reward between pvp players and farmers is super inbalanced.
PvPers risk basicly nothing some food/bandages and PvE/harvesters risk everything they been doing,

Personally i would love to see equipment much cheaper to make with less durability but you loose paper doll on death.

As for Gods reach, green items should be capped maybe super rare blues in the pvp area of GR

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2020 at 8:23 PM, mystafyi said:

would locking out tiers above green in GR, above Blue in infected, ect help? If we had more vessel slots I could easily see me wanting to have kitted vessels of different tiers, well not sure about white...

It would. I'd honestly not mind since if this ruleset is supposed to be more casual there is no need to rush things.

They could also work with adding multiple drops instead of simply skipping tiers. Elite - white and sometimes an uncommon; Captain - a guaranted green/sometimes 2; Chiefs - 2 (or 3?) Greens or a blue drop.

I think multiple drops would be pretty nice since, considering we have a bunch of classes, most of these drops end up being useless or dont match the build of the the player anyway. And my efforts on moving those along were fruitless since guilds, and I quote, "Have a bucketload of blues from chiefs". They werent even interested on it as gears for the newbies.

And now that I think of it implementing both ideas would be pretty interesting. I'd like to see how only being able to use the blue gear dropped in the dregs would change the chief farming we have now. At that point I'd think they would just go farm in the Dregs...

Edited by BarriaKarl

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I personally don't think gear dropping will ever take off in Crowfall. All of the gear is so customized and personal looting it would be a much sharper pain than I think a lot of people would bear.

The whole thing would just be a HUGE pain. I'm a pretty successful ganker so I think I'd come out with far more gear than I lose. The problem is it's a pain for the victor as well. It's very likely going to be hard to find a home for the gear that you just got and inventory management is already very difficult.

A painful full loot experience will also lead to really passive and boring gameplay. People will never take chances and it will lead to much less fun fights happening because of it. Ultimately it would lead to people playing less and only playing when they feel safe...which sucks.

Gankers risking very little for failed kill attempts is a legitimate criticism. However the market will solve this issue and if less people harvest then it will only make harvesting more lucrative. Gankers risk time they could have spent doing more productive things in order to gank. 

From my personal experience the time to reward ratio isn't that great for ganking. Even as a successful ganker you can probably make more money and acquire more raw materials doing another activity. Even when you do get big loot ganks you don't have much of a choice of what you're getting. Much of the time getting even more excess items that you don't really need.

 

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I think the game has started to move it's balancing in the right direction, the removal of t6-7 from GR was a good start. I agree that there needs to be an incentive for harvesters to go into higher risk zones and a rebalancing of the loot tables in the nodes to help.

GR should be Common quality.but has everything available in Common, including making R1-3 graves drop Common quality, i think this would allow new players to try all parts of the Crowfall game and go into infected with some decent knowledge, as many quests and directions as possible to help them explore, expand the NPE to all of GR.

Infected - Caps out at Blue, i think there is a consensus that a good rolled blue set is your standard for good PvP in the long run which will make the Dregs experince a bit more balanced for them, this also introduces the PvP light experience with some risk and teach the PvP/harvester cycle

Dregs - The main place for goodness, full inventory loot all resources available (it would be great to have some R1's around somewhere to allow players to get some basic uncommons to kickstart crafting with, otherwise its just war tribe then buy from the resource vendor)

please no paperdoll loot PvP, crafting would have to substantially change for this to occur, not just in materials but time it takes to craft, Albion works because i can make 30 Bows in no time what so ever, but Crowfall has a much more involved system and it would just make the risk for harvesters even more substantial.

I saw someone suggest how Albion does it, Albion does have non-PvP zones (blue) and PvP light Zones (Yellow), so its not just all about PVP 100% and those zones are there to ease the player in (and some players stay in Blue and Yellow Zones for a very long time and come out when they are ready to)

I cannot wait for Dregs to come back, its fun, its risky and full of life. The zones just need a bit more tweaking to push harvesters into wanting the better qualities but that needs to be allowed to be at their own pace and forcing them into PvP too quickly will make you lose players because they have not had time to acclimate to the PvP/Harvester lifestyle :)

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14 hours ago, srathor said:

 Yeah cause the pvp zones are so damn populated. Some people do not like the risk, they do not like being the chained goat for the stalking wolves. Surely if you force them into wasting all their work if they get caught by the wolves they will find it to be fun!  This argument has been had over and over for years. Yet the pvp'ers never seem to acknowledge it has been tried and failed over and over.  The gatherer types will leave. Then the wolves get bored only fighting dwindling numbers of wolves and leave as well. 

I've always heard it called Cat and Mouse.  I come from Survival games, rust/ark/Arma/etc.  I would spend tons of time farming, lose it all many many times.  But I only wasted my time hitting stupid rocks because of the value they had in that environment.  As Zybak pointed out the risk made getting those things valuable.  We would go out in teams so we wouldn't just lose our stuff, it promoted  not only PvP but teamwork.  Make friends.  Of course if you can just chill and farm shiny things in GR why bother getting into the game loop.

   When I started my guild every gatherer/crafter type I recruited would quit the game or say they would be back. You know why? Passives.  Being unable to catch-up means they won't ever make as good of a sword, they won't ever hit that rock as hard, realistically passives are gating this "environmental content" in such a way you will never draw nor keep a large share of this player demographic. Turbonerds are barely crafting wartribe quality gear.  If bill got in today and says I wanna be a crafter!  It's like well In a month or two you can make non-awful things. Maybe in a few more they will be handy, but it'll be over a year before you can cap it out finally catching up and not just being inferior.  So what does bill do? Guess he goes and hits rock in GR. That riveting gameplay fails to draw him in.  Maybe if getting resources took more than time you do not value, it could be rewarding. 

 

I appreciate that Ace is working to make this game for a wider audience and I am not advocating for anyone to be thrown to the fire, but if non-lootable PvP in infected(where roughly 1 in 3 players is on your team anyways) is too spicy and not worth the risk, then the numbers are clearly off. This is a PvP game and it's gameplay functions around that central point. In GR there are no players, just NPCs hitting rocks

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I think we would need better storage (including guild banks) and factories before equipped item loot could realistically be a thing. I'd love to have a server ruleset with equipped item loot someday but I don't think it's feasible until then. 


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indeed, it would be very cool to see a server ruleset for full loot, i agree if they can nail easy mass production of items then full loot could easily be a thing (that server having some amazing rewards to go with the economic stress it would entail)

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, srathor said:

Some people do not like the risk, they do not like being the chained goat for the stalking wolves. Surely if you force them into wasting all their work if they get caught by the wolves they will find it to be fun!  This argument has been had over and over for years. Yet the pvp'ers never seem to acknowledge it has been tried and failed over and over.  The gatherer types will leave. Then the wolves get bored only fighting dwindling numbers of wolves and leave as well. 

What's more, after the harvesters leave the wolves will have to harvest for themselves; something many of them detest.

I'm a carebear at heart, but farming in complete safety isn't a challenge. I prefer to be a sheep among the wolves, but there has to be a balance that's fun for everyone or it'll be fun for no one.

Being a harvester in a PvP game is different from being a PvPer who is harvesting, it's a zen thing. You get into a rhythm that's relaxing compared to your daily life. Getting ganked breaks that rhythm. Getting ganked often keeps you from ever getting into it; but with out any threat I'd do as well to play minecraft. (nothing wrong with minecrafting, it's just not my thing)

What people have been pushing for, smaller worlds with more concentrated resources, these mean I'll need guards to do my job. Harvesting like this sucks for the guards, the harvester, and the ganker. The guards & the gankers won't get good PvP because a solo ganker won't engage if I have 5 guards, but a war party will roll over us, and a bigger war party will roll over them. For the harvester, the players guarding you give pressure to maximize output so we can get done, rather than going at your own zen pace, when you want to do it, until you don't want to do it.

Myself, I prefer a wide open sparely populated world with widely scattered mid level resources with a few gems sprinkled in here and there, where you have to find me to gank me. The threat of PvP is real and ever present, but so is the potential to make my run & get home safe. My 'guards' don't need to babysit me directly, they can do their job by roaming; outriders looking for contacts, and then the party collapses on any enemy they find.

Edit: In a wide open world, the game of cat & mouse is actually dog, cat & mouse. When the dogs bark, the mouse hides. It's the cat's job to find the mouse without being seen by the dogs, and then escape before the dogs catch him.

Edited by VaMei

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, veeshan said:

Yeah thats a big problem with this game is the risk vs reward between pvp players and farmers is super inbalanced.
PvPers risk basicly nothing some food/bandages and PvE/harvesters risk everything they been doing,

The mouse risks the tools, pots & food he's carrying and didn't plan to bring home, the durability of his gear, and his time. I carry about an hour's worth of supplies, and when I run out it's time to go bank & resupply. The potential reward is known if the mouse is planning ahead. Until he gets home with the cheese, it's not his. If he gets home safe with the cheese, he wins.

The cat risks bandages, food, durability of his gear and his time for an unknown reward. If he finds a mouse, that mouse may have a treasure trove, or may only have an hour's worth of supplies. The cat may not find any mice, may find a dog playing as a mouse, or may be found by a pack of dogs. If the cat finds a fat mouse, kills it, and gets home without being eaten by the dogs, he wins.

Assuming the dogs are allies with the mouse, if the dogs kill the cat after the cat kills the mouse, the mouse still wins.

Edited by VaMei

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4 hours ago, VaMei said:

The mouse risks the tools, pots & food he's carrying and didn't plan to bring home, the durability of his gear, and his time. I carry about an hour's worth of supplies, and when I run out it's time to go bank & resupply. The potential reward is known if the mouse is planning ahead. Until he gets home with the cheese, it's not his. If he gets home safe with the cheese, he wins.

Logically, This makes sense. Alas, life is not logical. If folks take the time to gather something and its sitting in their inventory, it is now added to items risked for the mouse. 

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On 5/20/2020 at 9:13 AM, ConstantineX said:

got burnt out by the low population that seemed to prefer hanging in Gods Reach

If the bulk of your games players prefer playing in Gods Reach, that should tell you that the design of your game has failed to produce what the bulk of your players want outside of Gods Reach.

Im sorry to break it to you folks, but the game should be more like Gods Reach and not less like it. Keep gutting Gods reach and the 38 people that bother to even log on can shrink down to the 12 waiting outside Gods Reach to ruin the play experience of the people inside.

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3 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Im sorry to break it to you folks, but the game should be more like Gods Reach and not less like it.

Wow.


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8 hours ago, Toadwart said:

If the bulk of your games players prefer playing in Gods Reach, that should tell you that the design of your game has failed to produce what the bulk of your players want outside of Gods Reach.

That was my point, without dregs the game loop really falls to pieces and farming GR over infected isn't what players want, it is what is smart.  I don't want to auto equip illusionist, but my desire to play smart wins the day in the end. Players are their own worst enemy. Other than the 3 chiefs in infected there is not really anything drawing players to it.  We know you risk death, but reward is...?    PvP experience? PvP is so often difficult to find outside of the limited resources infected has to offer, you will get bored very fast.  The game needs to use it's reward system to push players towards PvP activities, dregs does an amazing job looping the crafting/gathering sides of the game to PvP activity.  I had more fun farming resources last night than i did this past month in infected because I got into a couple of really fun engaging fights, I even enjoyed the fight I lost, because it was organic content that sprang up from other players trying to compete for the same resources.  I ran with a group most of the night which is that social element an MMO needs more than any other piece.

  I mean it when I say there are no players in GR.  Nothing there demands I need you on my team, or as my enemy. You are just a buggy NPC.  Every MMO needs content to force players to band together, and Crowfall does have that in dregs. If we want new players to play the game they cannot be left to thinking GR is this game, because it is tutorial/leveling island/proxy EK(crafting/inventory management/trading, things you might do in a guild EK) and no more.  I would like it if I could just level in infected and skip GR entirely honestly. 

Part of on boarding will be getting newer players/guilds into PvP zones to start learning the value of caravans/forts/keeps/kings/etc.  As it stands infected just feels very neutered and boring.  I think twofold GR should get another pass reducing it's reward, and infected should have more resources to fight over, keeps or forts should function differently than dregs and offer faction wide boons, might encourage smaller groups/newer players wanting to farm somewhere safer than dregs to actually play infected as a playable server not simply a stand in because we don't have a campaign.  They don't lose their stuff, just their time.  And as someone who has spent probably a literal month of my life hitting some different rock or another in some game I can confidently say that farming is not as exciting or rewarding when no-one can thwart your plans. 

As far as your comment that the game should aspire to be more like GR, have you even played the game or are you one of the folks who's keeping up to date on the forums?  Because I have never heard such an absurd remark.  


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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