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Marklarr

Passive Gating is not fun for harvesters

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Dear Crowfall Community and ACE Devs

 

I come forward today to address an issue close to my heart, that being harvesting and keeping my new player harvesters interested in the game. There have been 2 changes that I feel have caused Crowfall harvesting to become very slow and more boring than the previous iterations and quite the turn off to a new player:

1. Gating Energetic Harvest behind 95% completion

2.Gating Runetools and Spirit Tools behind nodes that take some time to get to.

Energetic Harvest

I have always enjoyed Crowfall harvesting, before the current patch it was fun, interactable and rewarded good game play, between hitting the weakspots and nailing your energetic harvesting rotation and making the right choices it made harvesting very unique. I can understand the need to slow down the curve for harvesting but i don't believe this gating is the way to do it, I think it needs better sign posting as to what the different skills do (although im sure guides will exist for this in the near future), what i would like to suggest is:

(1 or 2 or both!)

1. Add Energetic harvest to the middle node in basic exploration tree so it can be introduced slightly slower.

2.Gain Enable energetic harvest through the Miner/Skinner/Quarryman/Logger discipline, but specifically for that type of harvest

I do not believe that harvesting is to overwhelming to begin with to introduce Energetic Harvest so late in the game, as most harvesters I have spoken to are bypassing it to go straight to their specialised passive training tree.

Tools

This one hurts a bit, sometimes i can understand the need to lock Spirit Tools as they are specialised, but runetools? Intermediate tools as they used to be known, I thought would be the introduction to crafting better tools, there is no lock for intermediate armour or weapons so I am not sure why this was done for tools. This has also had the effect that new players that want to harvest are hindered quite harshly in how they can feel useful for a while to unlock any tool. This also hinders their freedom to hit certain things and limits them to low rank stuff for some time without it feeling incredibly exhaustive (basic tolls use don anything but basic resources doe snot feel great). This makes it hard for guilds that take in new players to really allow that player to have freedom to do much, we can give them the best gear, rings, support possible and they still would not be able to do much and it would still feel very unrewarding for them and the income to the guild would also not be great (not something i worry about personally but i'm sure some guilds do worry about resource/effort put into newbies that then give up because harvesting doe snot pull them in like it could). What I suggest

1. Remove passive Gating for runetools, Intermediete tools should be part of the learning curve for players and let them understand that tools made on the rune table are better than basics, this also sign posts the player as to where better tools are made starts to show the relationship between good tools and better harvesting.

2. i would love to have spirit tools removed from gating completely and let the crafter ability and economy gate the progress of what is available to new players, if this cannot be the case then the Sprit Toll unlock should be where the current Rune tool unlock is so that it is easily reachable.

I thank you for your time

Kindest regards

A very tired harvester and guy that wants to make harvesting great again for new and old alike :)

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Posted (edited)

It's an insane problem to be facing, and one that shouldn't exist in the first place. Crowfall already asks a LOT of a new player. They're asked to find and join an established guild long before they're even half comfortable with the game, since every aspect is gated behind guild play. They're prohibited from crafting because they will never be able to make anything remotely useful compared to the established players, and won't be able to compete with wartribe drops for several months. They can't play a real part in any sort of PvP, because they don't have the vessels to be competitive. At best they can spent 20 hours farming NPCs with an AI from a few decades ago, in the hope of getting some gold and wartribe gear.

And now, on top of that, they're not allowed to gather any more. They're being prevented from contributing in any way, shape, or form to the ecosystem of the game. What does the core design document say about how these systems are going to not just introduce new players, but also give them a reason to stick around after they realize that they're second class customers? Every part of the game tells them that they are not welcome. They are not of equal worth. Literally. They don't have access to the same game as the rest of us.

"Welcome to Crowfall, come back in three months and you'll be allowed to play the game."

There's a million and three different changes that could, and should, be made to the existing systems. Gathering being the most acute of the problems. But the underlying problem needs to be addressed as well. Slapping one shoddily thought out bandaid after the other on top of a gaping wound will do exact nothing in the long term.

Hard gating fundamental game mechanics behind account age will keep out new players. You can gate effectiveness and efficiency. You can gate choice impact. You can even go as far as gating choice breadth. But you can not gate core mechanics if you wish your game to survive long term.

Edited by Feathercoat

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The Energetic Harvest thing makes no sense. I shouldn't need to train the entire basic tree to get it. People wanting to specialize in one type of harvesting or another should be able to get it.

That said, I would wait until we see what changes the NPE brings. Maybe the NPE "quests" will grant players skill points as a way to get them up to speed quicker. Maybe we will have to choose between combat, crafting and exploration skill points. I think that would make a lot of sense, as it would give players a way to get a head start on the skill training, while at the same time giving them a big incentive to do the NPE quests. 

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Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that there is an evil presense within ACE? Constantly striving to find new ways to make this game even more of a pain in the ass?

In upcoming "Features", there will be the need to sit down at a table, produced by 27 different master skilled crafters, to be able to alleviate hunger and fill the chicken meter. Oh??Too simple and easy? You must be in a full group and under the influence of an aperitif potion during appropriate meal times.

Does that sound about right......?


 

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I see your point @Marklarr but there is also a downside -  if good harvesting capabilities are easy to get then everyone will get them and there will be no Real Gatherer as a specialization thus making the "gatherer player' obsolete.

There may be tweaks involved but having energetic harvesting behind 1 month of active training looks like a good option. As far as new players go - we really need that catch-up mechanic or you are perfectly right - as 1 month will push people away. So we go around in circles...


Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.ro

 

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Posted (edited)

ACE likes to point out that you can level up in as little as 2 hours and join in the action. For combat activities, this is true. A good player with a carry from friends can participate in high level PvP or PvE combat on day one.They won't have the combat passives, but that is not a major detriment, and is certainly not a hard gate.

Harvesting and crafting are sadly not that way. Without the passive skills you CANNOT harvest or craft at a high level, and there is nothing you can actively do to improve your rate of progression. Where are we, 6 weeks from server up? Craftsmen are still are not able to make gear better than war tribes drops (top line damage numbers are higher than loot, but the secondary stats are bad, real bad), and harvesters have barely touched their final profession tree, if they've reached it at all (I'm getting close to the end of the skinning side of Reaping). Without the Harvest Critical Chance and Critical Amount from the profession tree, you are not harvesting at anything close to a high level.

Edited by VaMei

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Should get a weak version of energetic harvest on the very first node in harvesting basics, There should then be nodes within the tree that makes energetic harvest better.
This way you have all harvesting content right at the start to play around and experiment with and see what part of that skill you like to put point in to improve.

Imo crafting should be relatively similar with experimentation pips you should get like 1 experimentation pip in the very first part of say blacksmithing however make the % bonus per pip alot less and have the tree boost pip % bonus instead of the amount of pips you have. This way crafting better quality gear early on doesnt feel pointless because u cant fill up a pip line in better quality equipment.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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No one will harvest for the first several months, they will passively gain, and fight npc's.

It doesn't make sense UNLESS you can put both skill tickers into the same thing.

 

For example, you can skill gain two skills? Why not the same tree?

Pvpers can do both offense and defence, or double up on all offense (have one ticker get 2x gains)

This will let people specialize and be more dependent on others.


Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Silverback said:

No one will harvest for the first several months

So, you will play without consumable ?
it's only 2 month, and we got decent green vessel, you can always wait more if you want.

Edited by Aedius

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2 hours ago, Silverback said:

No one will harvest for the first several months, they will passively gain, and fight npc's.

It doesn't make sense UNLESS you can put both skill tickers into the same thing.

 

For example, you can skill gain two skills? Why not the same tree?

Pvpers can do both offense and defence, or double up on all offense (have one ticker get 2x gains)

This will let people specialize and be more dependent on others.

I still think they need some kinmda levelling system for crafting and harvesters aswell for vessels where they get talent tree for those trees to promote active leveling for harvesting and crafting aswell and not just rely on the passive tree like they currently have cause exactly your reason there no point to gather and craft for like 2 months over mob dropped gears. If they gained bonuses via vessel levels to boost there crafting/harvesting u may see people do so it could also allow player to accelerate to a useful point through active play for crafting and harvesting.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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