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Why are there so many races and classes?


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The end game has a lot going for it, or at least what it could be. One of the biggest issues with PvP in mmos is being able to get the class balance right and with this many races, classes, and subclasses that is a LOT of variables to have to balance. Is there a reason this approach was taken instead of having half as many races and classes that could be tweaked, polished, and released sooner?

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They originally started with archetypes, where the race and class was predetermined. Back in Hunger Dome, we had the Human Knight, Centaur Legionnaire and Nethari Confessor. They eventually made the decision to split archetypes into separate races and classes. Yes, it is tougher to balance, but it gives players more build options, which is always a good thing. It's a lot easier to balance when everyone is basically the same, but that isn't very fun either.

They still need to balance a lot of things, so I wouldn't judge the balance based on what we have now. Will it ever be perfect? No, but it doesn't need to be. This isn't a 1 vs 1 game. It's meant to be group vs group combat. In that light, minor imbalances between classes or races won't make a significant difference. If there are major imbalances, those can be fixed as they would in any other game. There's no MMO out there, PvP or PvE, where balances is perfect.

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6 hours ago, arcturussage said:

and subclasses

the subclasses (or promotion classes) are literally focused on 2 skills being better out of the same pool of skills the base class has. Its barely a difference at all from the base class im most situations.

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CF is not supposed to be balanced for 1v1.  It presents a series of choices, and leaves it to the players to decide.  It can be very complex when you start considering player builds, group compositions, multi group interactions, crafting, gathering, etc.  While this may have it's own challenges, some believe it is far better than homogenized wasteland of sameness found in some games.  ACE has chosen to potentially err on that side of the spectrum--on the side of experimentation, expression, and creativity--and I think it is a great choice.  

So, going forward, I hope that ACE continues not try to balance the classes/races (generally speaking), but strives to make each one valuable to the group in its own way.  

Edited by Durin

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:25 AM, TheAltarBoy said:

The end game has a lot going for it, or at least what it could be. One of the biggest issues with PvP in mmos is being able to get the class balance right and with this many races, classes, and subclasses that is a LOT of variables to have to balance. Is there a reason this approach was taken instead of having half as many races and classes that could be tweaked, polished, and released sooner?

What does "balance" even mean? 1v1, 5v5, 50v50. Race v Race. Class v Class. Race/Class v Race/Class? Really isn't possible in the context of trying to make everyone equal all the time no matter what.

Every game has times were there are clear imbalances which usually aren't difficult to see or deal with, devs however usually aren't on top of it and people get grumpy.

While not perfect, Crowfall's 12 races seem relatively good choices for their classes with the recent update. Some could use a little tweak or so, but not sure there is a clear "best" for any class although some might have more potential with the current design.

The 11 Classes are pretty straight forward overall and once they tackle bugs, tooltips, powers not functioning properly, updating classes/powers that have aged poorly, etc there shouldn't be too much problem. Lack of good Discipline choices, wonky CC and CC promos, and some other issues sound like they are on the list of to do before launch. Beyond that, Crowfall's classes have way fewer moving parts then most MMOs to the point of being too simple IMO. If they can't reach some sort of acceptable "balance" overall, will be surprising.

DAoC has 19 Races and 45 Classes. Shadowbane had 20 something classes?

Wow has 23 Races and 12 Classes with a lot more class options per race.

On 5/28/2020 at 5:36 AM, yianni said:

I'd rather have this many combos than 5 classes and races. This isn't wow

True, WoW has a lot more of both and options for each.

Edited by APE

 


 

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On 5/28/2020 at 3:36 PM, yianni said:

I'd rather have this many combos than 5 classes and races. This isn't wow

That!

It will be harder to balance but so was for Daoc and shadowbane who had a large combo of character&races&disciplines.

I like variety!

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On 6/11/2020 at 7:03 AM, KrakkenSmacken said:

Every time the balance question comes up. 

What they said sounds great in theory, but it doesn't match what they created.

If Promos are considered "classes" then 30% are poorly designed or too niche to the point of being questionable choices in most gameplay. Players can't overcome poor design by getting better. 

1:1 balance shouldn't be a goal, but all classes/promos should have strengths and weaknesses be it individually, compared to similar roles, and to others. There are clearly great, good, not good, and what is going on here options. Not sure if people mean 1v1 when they mention balance, but for me it is more about the overall value classes bring and the amount of fun potential compared to others in multiple areas of play.

I'd rather have 11 well designed classes with the option to tweak a few things then a third of the options being lost in the shuffle because devs want to show there are so many options. Quantity vs Quality.

Edited by APE

 


 

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17 hours ago, APE said:

If Promos are considered "classes" then 30% are poorly designed or too niche to the point of being questionable choices in most gameplay. Players can't overcome poor design by getting better.

I seriously hope that those 30% are designed to be powerfull enough in the long term, with purple stuff and many passives.
All the cap allow this i think.

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:43 AM, Toadwart said:

the subclasses (or promotion classes) are literally focused on 2 skills being better out of the same pool of skills the base class has. Its barely a difference at all from the base class im most situations.

i still think the split should happen at the first 3 way fork (level 10-15 mark or something) and have more skills behind there to differentiate the sub classes more.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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On 7/17/2020 at 1:22 PM, Vinter said:

DAOC was amazing because of class diversity, modern games all being the same between factions and groups is dull and boring.

Wish other companies had the resources to do similar character designs. What the original DAoC team pulled off so long ago is pretty amazing.

 


 

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This is such a NON-issue at this point in Development.  ACE has said that a balancing pass will happen probably after release and continue till the end of time.

ACE is not trying to balance things right now.  They are just doing adjustments right now to keep players happy.  The ACE team that will be in charge of balancing is currently working on content to push for Beta. Then will be working on push to release.  ACE said once they can free up team members, they can make a team to work on balancing.

As mentioned above, there will be no 1 v 1 balance.  This is not a 1 v 1 game.  Should a healer be able to kill a champ?

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