1x is too slow for passive explor. skill points, 3x+ needed

[Ironmike 55]

Apparently the passive skill points are at 1x when they used to be 3x (+). 1x is waay to slow. As a new player (just levelled to 30) its going to take weeks just to equip an intermediate rune tool. I think that test is successful and we can resume it at 3x+ again 

 

Remember, with basic rune tools, one cannot even harvest blood or bone as the chance is 0%. Not even 2% but zero. 0% for anything above white resources. Add to that item inflation where anything below blue is worthless, and there is no point. 

No resources, no money, no money no halfway crappy gear to be a semi challenging training dummy in Pvp. No Pvp, no harvesting, not really much incentive to play for a new player. 

 

[Ble 1,090]

I feel like 3x training is almost the same as no training time, just choose your stuff.  It builds up so quick.  I really dislike this passive training altogether.  It serves no purpose.  It's just a timegate timesink mechanic.  It keeps people who late join from being competitive.  If you want to have an early/middle/late game you can control it based on available resources rarities.  Crafting is so unfun and tedious in this game.  It's 100% horrible experience until trained at which time it drops to a 80% horrible experience.   I cannot phathom whey they are thinking this will be a popular mechanic in their game at release.  It feels as if they just made the decision and so they're sticking to it.  Starting the hike with a thorn in your foot.  Our crafters have literally been hanging out in channel chatting for the past two months.  

 

I've heard their explanation of why they want passive training - but it does not translate.  It does not enhance the game.  It does not make me want to play more or longer.  Why are we here if not to provide this feedback?

 

The good thing about their crafting structure is that its set up for there to be alot of opportunity for variety of end product (different stats and such) but they don't seem to want to flesh out this side of crafting.  They're more worried about making it difficult and failure prone.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ble

[Arkade 4,061]

Basic tools can absolutely be used to harvest blood and bone. The +skinning stat is the extra damage you do to the node. Yes, you can craft advanced knives that have +blood chance, but you don't need that to harvest blood and bone. You just need the training in the exploration basics tree. 

That said, there are still issues with skill training. I don't know that making it 3x is the solution, but something needs to be done so that crafters and harvesters can become viable more quickly.

[Khalanos 70]

I don't even attempt to craft because I don't have multiple accounts.  Nor do I think any game should promote the purchasing of multiple accounts to be viable in other aspects of the game.  Remove passive training, and make it more about putting in work to get better, instead of waiting weeks to passively train and force a focus on combat or crafting.

[coolster50 2,761]

I’d rather deal with 1x training than grind R1 nodes to raise my harvesting skill.

 

That being said, JOIN MY LOBBY! 3x OR BUST!

[Ironmike 55]

Quote

44 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Basic tools can absolutely be used to harvest blood and bone.

 

Nope, 0%. Perhaps at one time but not now. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ironmike

[Marklarr 221]

Quote

5 minutes ago, Ironmike said:

Nope, 0%. Perhaps at one time but not now. 

 

You are aware Bone chance is only available through passive skill so you can use basic tools to get bone once you have atleast 1 node filled in it. You can get blood chance knives but rhe major amount will still come from passive training.

[Marklarr 221]

Personally, i feel this is where food could be expanded to have a 2% chance food for all the exotic resources, there is already some for soulgems and survivalist, and there is still wiggle room with the current foods with the different optional seasoning

 

i do think that harvesting and crafting is slightly nerfed to begin with, but that is what War tribes are filling in at the moment.

[Ironmike 55]

59 minutes ago, Marklarr said:

You are aware Bone chance is only available through passive skill so you can use basic tools to get bone once you have atleast 1 node filled in it. You can get blood chance knives but rhe major amount will still come from passive training.

Indeed, that is my point. At the current 1x rate for passive skills, it will take weeks, if not months to acquire that skill. 

[moneda 1,663]

13 minutes ago, Ironmike said:

At the current 1x rate for passive skills, it will take weeks, if not months to acquire that skill.

I think your biggest problem in convincing the development team to accept your critique of their system is that when you're designing a game you want people to play for at least a decade, why does this matter?

[Ironmike 55]

8 minutes ago, moneda said:

I think your biggest problem in convincing the development team to accept your critique of their system is that when you're designing a game you want people to play for at least a decade, why does this matter?

Well for starters, having new players to stay in the game for more than a week and increasing player population.

 

Of course if the current player population of like 80 players (who did experience 3x+ passive training rate) works and no new players are desired for the dev team then sure, it does not matter then and would not be convincing for them.

Then the question becomes, does the Dev team listen to and even give a Sh&t about new players and increasing the population? Perhaps this is a wake up call. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ironmike

[Jah 7,859]

3 minutes ago, Ironmike said:

Then the question becomes, does the Dev team listen to and even give a Sh&t about new players and increasing the population?

They do, but the players don't all give the same feedback. Which players are right?

How confident are you that passive training is the reason for the low population, as opposed to other factors like performance, wipes, 4 day campaigns, missing features, etc?

[Aedius 480]

20 minutes ago, Ironmike said:

Indeed, that is my point. At the current 1x rate for passive skills, it will take weeks, if not months to acquire that skill. 

I think it's better to play PvP and wait to unlock things than have to farm useless thing for days and being a fly on the battlefield.

[DocHollidaze 1,156]

2 hours ago, Ble said:

It feels as if they just made the decision and so they're sticking to it. 

 

I think Crowfall is well past the time-frame were fundamental game mechanics changes can occur.

[DocHollidaze 1,156]

2 hours ago, Ironmike said:

Apparently the passive skill points are at 1x when they used to be 3x (+). 1x is waay to slow. As a new player (just levelled to 30) its going to take weeks just to equip an intermediate rune tool. I think that test is successful and we can resume it at 3x+ again 

Remember, with basic rune tools, one cannot even harvest blood or bone as the chance is 0%. Not even 2% but zero. 0% for anything above white resources. Add to that item inflation where anything below blue is worthless, and there is no point. 

No resources, no money, no money no halfway crappy gear to be a semi challenging training dummy in Pvp. No Pvp, no harvesting, not really much incentive to play for a new player. 

 

 

The point has been made hundreds of times over the last 3-4 years. And at this point it is largely an irrelevant point.

ACE has made it clear (IMHO) that they don't intend to develop the game such that an individual is "viable".

So, if an individual is not intended to be viable in Crowfall, your complaint is actually realizing the game is working as intended.

The solution is for the player to join a group, where their individual deficiencies are less pronounced as they (guild members) augment each other.

Theoretically, the period of time where all players coming in are new and everybody has zero training, which limits access to certain things in absolute terms, should only exist for a span of several weeks after official launch.

After that, and it can be reasonably argued and theorized that new (fresh) player entry will be spaced out (probably at a decreasing rate over time) and those people will be looking to (realistically have to) join a guild - all guilds likely will be containing cohorts of players with max possible training and resources to help equip said new player.

That being said, I have no delusions that this kind of game setup will ever produce a huge audience.

[DocHollidaze 1,156]

My personal thoughts on the perception of low population in Test/Dergs what-have-you right now?

- Hype for Dregs over the last couple years and disappointment in the reveal (shallow feature-set)

Specifically:

• No free build
• Set siege times
• Early capability of importing win conditions requirements
• Philosophy of ACE on PvE capability to produce PvP when PvE is the win condition

- Game server and client performance

- Short campaigns with long campaign level of build requirements for keeps

- Low/no content feedback loop. As less content is available, it reduces enthusiasm, reinforcing the status quo.

----

Passive training? Nah

It really only impacts people trying to play by themselves, and they are likely to just quit in a few weeks anyway. Or perhaps it impacts a guild when that whole guild comes in later and every single one of them is fresh. But groups of people can overcome with brute force effort still. What they out to do is recruit existing players that need a new home, or pick up some of the lone wolves that are trying to play solo and realizing they can't.

[Ironmike 55]

15 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

Theoretically, the period of time where all players coming in are new and everybody has zero training, which limits access to certain things in absolute terms, should only exist for a span of several weeks after official launch.

 

Indeed and I would agree, several weeks, not several months. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ironmike

[Ironmike 55]

42 minutes ago, Aedius said:

I think it's better to play PvP and wait to unlock things than have to farm useless thing for days and being a fly on the battlefield.

So do I, and with 1x passive training rate, a new player is a fly in either case for months. 

[DocHollidaze 1,156]

1 minute ago, Ironmike said:

Indeed and I would agree, several weeks, not several months. 

Well, that is the way it is now after several rounds of skill tree tweaks during Dergs testing. 

As to your original post about no money. I'm farming tens of thousands of gold off wartribes mobs with a white vessel pitfighter in green wartribe gear. Even though solo is probably not intended to be viable, I am doing that solo.

I then turn around and buy crafting additive drops like googles, and top end harvesting tools, and even better gear off of player vendors with that gold. I've been buying that stuff even though I haven't been using it. And it could if I wanted, since I have 10 accounts. But I've mainly just been playing one or two of them as I try out builds.

So, while I agree that new players that play solo will be gimped because of passive training, I don't agree with the extent that you exaggerate the problem.

[DocHollidaze 1,156]

Just now, Ironmike said:

So do I, and with 1x passive training rate, a new player is a fly in either case for months. 

 

Now I'm really wondering why the guys who just joined my guild recently, are able join my groups and heal and tank and stuff, and hit rocks with us. 

They are literally contributing, and they just turned on passive training a couple weeks ago.