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1x is too slow for passive explor. skill points, 3x+ needed


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18 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

I then turn around and buy crafting additive drops like googles, and top end harvesting tools, and even better gear off of player vendors with that gold. I've been buying that stuff even though I haven't been using it. And it could if I wanted, since I have 10 accounts. But I've mainly just been playing one or two of them as I try out builds.

 

Thanks, that was my  point, a new player can't craft with 1x passive skill training, and can't even use medium (forget top tier) harvesting tools for months, (no matter how much gold is farmed from mobs or otherwise). Should be weeks. 

Edited by Ironmike
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5 minutes ago, Ironmike said:

Thanks, that was my  point, a new player can't craft with 1x passive skill training, and can't even use medium (forget top tier) harvesting tools for months. Should be weeks. 

Yeah I get you, probably something like 70 days if my math is right.

I primarily disagree with the supposition that players are useless and can't do anything during that time.

- if you are trying to be solo and self-sufficient, then yes that would be correct.

- if you are part of an organized guild, definitely not the case.

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18 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

- if you are trying to be solo and self-sufficient, then yes that would be correct.

- if you are part of an organized guild, definitely not the case.

If that is a goal in the design, then that can be designed, do something like Shadowbane where you couldn't respawn or bank until you joined a guild and had a grey shield over your head telling everyone "I'm a loner!" Knock yourself out whatever one enjoys. 

On topic though, months on the most basic passive training is too effin long and is more discouraging than encouraging. Even Eve, almost 20 years ago, didn't have that high of a gate. Why break something that was already fixed?

 

 

 

Edited by Ironmike
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2 hours ago, Ironmike said:

If that is a goal in the design, then that can be designed, do something like Shadowbane where you couldn't respawn or bank until you joined a guild and had a grey shield over your head telling everyone "I'm a loner!" Knock yourself out whatever one enjoys. 

On topic though, months on the most basic passive training is too effin long and is more discouraging than encouraging. Even Eve, almost 20 years ago, didn't have that high of a gate. Why break something that was already fixed?

 

 

 

 

I definitely like the passive training system EVE online has way better.

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On 5/27/2020 at 10:58 AM, DocHollidaze said:

That being said, I have no delusions that this kind of game setup will ever produce a huge audience.

The line is likely too true. I'm all for highly encouraging social play in a social game but there is a lot more evidence that players like to do their own thing, even if social features are still a huge part of the game.

I don't believe speeding up the training time will make anyone viable unless they are the few silly folks with 50 accounts and a love of logging in/out of games.

Seems odd that a game that was supposed to be all in on specialization and meaningful choices allows someone to train everything given enough time.

I'd rather have it where you can train X options per account with initial training being fast and subsequent options slowing over time.

Ex: 1st Craft maxed in a month. 2nd in two months, 3rd in 4, and that's it for crafting on that account unless you "forget" one due to some lore Frankenstein missing a brain piece with a memory reasoning.

Or

One training slot runs 3x speed and other at 1x.

Or

Train only one option and it goes 5x speed or whatever the math is to make it worth it but not too worth it.

There's plenty they can try that will keep the value of passive training, meaningful choice, time, progression, reward/satisfaction, etc.

These things will remove the need for "future dev problems" and making catch up mechanics which defeat the point of passive training.

On 5/27/2020 at 2:49 PM, DocHollidaze said:

I definitely like the passive training system EVE online has way better.

I never got into EVE but I believe I understand the training systems for the most part. Using it as a comparison at the start was a smart marketing tool but at this point seems like it would be a lie to say they share anything in common beyond they are passive. Which is unfortunate as I like EVE's model but not the game where as I like what CF could become but not the character building.

 


 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would +1 that in its current form passive training is not fun.

It feels heavily discouraging to new players that see right off that passive training is SLOW, and can calculate that they are literally months of real world time behind more seasoned players. This compounds the longer the game is out, and seems antithetical to wanting a healthy mmo community that steadily attracts new players for years to come. I don't see skill tomes and active methods to advancement, as discussed in the recent Q&A, doing enough to move the needle.

On top of that, players will wait several weeks to see any meaningful progression in just one tree, and months to unlock enough to give themselves any semblance of role specialization. This is especially frustrating given that combat effectiveness is attached to passive skill training, which just furthers the powerlessness new players will feel. Power inequality in competitive games is even more discouraging.

I get the need to balance long term progression goals with shorter term advancement, but advancement should be fun and not discouraging.

I would agree that EVE's passive training system has several positives. A rough summary of suggestions relevant for Crowfall would be something like:

- Allow players to go broader and deeper faster, but only up to ~60% (3/5 pips)

- Reduce time required to train most nodes from 1-3, but increase time required to go to 4 and 5 pips. Important unlocks may need to be more costly.

- Allow unlock of new trees at closer to 60%

- Costs probably would need to scale up (generously though, not punishing) for the deeper skill trees.

 

I believe this would help make passive training, and the game experience as whole, for new players feel better. Unlocks would come quickly at the start, and be a positive reward. Over time, and as players learn more about the game and what they want to do in it, unlocks would come slower and be more costly which will emphasize specialization. On top of that, being able to go broader and deeper faster means that the imbalance doesn't feel too onerous for new players. It shouldn't feel oppressive to get to a point of competency in any one role, even if it's a large time investment to get to competency in all roles.

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13 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

- Costs probably would need to scale up (generously though, not punishing) for the deeper skill trees.

Good post. I think some form of scaling and frontloading skill tree's is mandatory. Designing a system that will require a catch-up mechanic within months is a flawed design from the start. 

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We used to have diminishing returns on the first iteration of the skill trees, and we used to be able to move on with only 3 pips. I don't remember why it was changed with the second iteration

giphy.gif

You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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I'd posted a thread a couple months back discussing ideas to improve the passive training situation.  There needs to be a means to increase your passive training speed and it should be simply by playing.  However, there needs to be more to it that helps drive players more quickly to minimum viable levels of training to be able to competently engage in their preferred playstyle, and also proposed Vessel specific points, as well.

 

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 1:02 AM, Ironmike said:

Apparently the passive skill points are at 1x when they used to be 3x (+). 1x is waay to slow. As a new player (just levelled to 30) its going to take weeks just to equip an intermediate rune tool. I think that test is successful and we can resume it at 3x+ again 

 

Remember, with basic rune tools, one cannot even harvest blood or bone as the chance is 0%. Not even 2% but zero. 0% for anything above white resources. Add to that item inflation where anything below blue is worthless, and there is no point. 

No resources, no money, no money no halfway crappy gear to be a semi challenging training dummy in Pvp. No Pvp, no harvesting, not really much incentive to play for a new player. 

 

Needs more front loading imo, basic tree need to progress much fast to the point you can max out the tree in 2 weeks, 2nd tier tree shouldtake like 2 months to max and 3 tier should be like 6 months to max. or something like that.
Crafting tree need to add a tier 3 line aswell

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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