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Wrain

UPDATED REVIEW..where are we??? Not far.. and its sad. :(

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10 hours ago, Banky said:



9. Why I'm here:  Like many here, my guild played UO and SB and we're here for the continuation/evolution of that. Coleman, Gordon, Koster are all names that carry a lot of weight for me. To borrow from a guildmate, when I ask questions to the nature of "Why?", I often get the response, "Blame Blair". Is this the person who is responsible for much of the frustration?

 

@Banky

Honestly I wont or don't believe in pointing fingers as everyone has creative ideas and that's the beauty of being an artist or creator...But I will say one of my original reviews years back was on the "crafting".  There was TOO much of a focus on this and its just reached a point of crazy.  Banging on a tree and limited resources spamming out of it..and dont get me started on having to RE-ROLL for a new body...ugh...this is a game, NOT A JOB/SIMULATOR.

POINTS:

1. Simplify the UI and trim all this fat on NON-PVP-COMBAT-GUILD-WORLD issues.  Give us a clean system with powerful disciplines, runes, stats, armor/weapon upgrades/drops and random vendors.  (hell go back to SB's random vendor timers inside our keeps and let us roll-with-resources!!!

2. Trim the crafting.  Make its SIMPLE and straight-forward.  Let the crafters and pve'rs have their roll by SUPPORTING the pvpers/guild/combat members without making them become rocket scientists...this is an MMO..not a crafting simulator.

3.  Remove the STAT CAPS, ALLOW players to create "frankenstein" builds and rolls that are unique, interesting, and FUN.  This is not supposed to feel like a line production job.  The majority of us players who signed up for this are ADULTS/OLD/FAMILIES now.  Parking a druid and random people going AFK to level in shadowbane was just FUN/mindless.  We kicked people, had people looting...people hiding in trees/invis to see how long they could go afk without getting kicked.

FUN=healthy population, clean simplified UI, powerful/interesting NO-HAND-HOLDING BUILDS, and get us SOME lore behind the faction..Make the SUN=desert..Earth=forest/winter, Earth=wasteland..or someway we can feel APART of a lore/faction that's at least somewhat different from our counters.

(btw, to the folks who are worried about "removing stat caps"...You need to understand it actually makes things FAIR.  If stat caps are removed..and someone goes full tilt glass, you have others who are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE.  It all equals out to some VERY crazy builds/wars..but most of all it allows the player to feel "unique".  In ALL of my mmo's since Text-based muds...my favorite characters were the ones where I HAD FULL CONTROL OF MY BUILD.  I WAS AN INDIVIDUAL. :)

Wrain

Edited by Wrain

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Props to Wrain for trying to convince the Dev's to make this game fun.

My complaints are not about characters/crafting/etc...  My complaints are about making a world where people want to log in all the time?

Apologies if anything here is planned or discussed on the ACE dev forum, which I do not have even read access too.  (Another complaint for another day)

 

Strategy/Territory control - Can we please remove Timerfall?  Can we please go back to the old way of sieges?

1.  Defenders declare a 4 hour defence window (eg 6-10pm est).  Attackers drop a bane stone 48 hours in advance for a keep, 24 hours for a fort.  With a forced 150k wager for keeps and 75k for forts.

2.  Once the bane stones are placed, the attackers set a time for the siege within the window.

3.  When the siege is over, if the window is still open bane stones are welcomed to be dropped.

 

Keeps - Keeps are pretty cool so far.  here's a few tweaks

1.  All keeps should be able to have every crafting station

2.  The best keep in the game should be able to place all 5 harvesting buildings, while the worst should only be able to place 3.  (Feel free to call the best one a castle)

3.  Where's our local keep bank that everyone can access that you talked about in the live stream, that everyone can access?  That the siege winners get to keep?

4.  Allow guild members to recall to keep.

 

Forts - Pretty cool so far.

1.  All Forts should have 50% upgraded crafting stations and 50% standard so small guilds can build everything.  Plus only 1 harvesting building.

2.  Local bank.  As with keep, if it's taken the new owners get the access, the loot, and the respect!

3. Allow guild members to recall to keep.

 

Outposts - I'm not a huge fan of outposts, but they are definitely getting better. 

1.  Outposts should be like small villages, but always available for capture.  If you take a temporary outpost it should be useful until it's lost.

2.  The outposts should have a bank, a respawn point and a recall point.

3.  Remove world banks and respawn points, as they will be in every outpost.

 

Taxes -  Let's give people some love for holding these territories.  Let's also give a reason for these people to invite people to live/harvest in their territories.

1.  10-25% Harvested resources/mob loot goes to the keep.  1-9% to the nearest fort.  Right into the fort chest.  Territory owners set the rate.

2.  To be clear.  Instead of running every single player off the map for 1 inventory full of loot, the owners of the keeps/forts may choose to protect these players and get 25% of 100 bags of loot!

 

TLDR - Fix territory control by

1.  Removing Timers/adding defence time windows and banestones

2.  Add local keep/fort chests

3.  Allow outposts to be useful by adding banks and recall points

4.  Add taxes to give people a reason to defend newbies in their zone

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sloppy

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Here is what i think really happened with the development of Crowfall, and remember the basic formula MONEY TALKS!!

2015-2016

Initially the envisioned pretty much a Shadowbane 2, with some improved graphics etc that newer technology would enable. They also saw some things in other games they liked and thought they could put in, and a few things in SB that they did not and would take out.

Then they asked us to back the game, and a slew of hardcore pvp'ers that loved shadowbane and were tired of WoW clones, shirts vs skins, faction based pvp, jumped on board and gave them the money to proceed.

2017 and beyond

More and more people out there heard about the game and people started backing it, a majority of these were from Wow and it's clones and had never played Shadowbane so they did not have that mindset. As the developers continually needed more funding they were happy to get funding from these players, but these players started asking for more and more things to make the game more like Wow, Wartribe gear is a great example. So the developers slowly started making these changes. Each change was a small deviation from the original concept, but when you add up all the changes it makes the game radically different from what was described in the kickstart.

My only problem with this is that i invested $1000 in a 2016 Ruby package, and if you asked me to invest that same $1000 again, today. I'd pass because this is not the game i signed up for.

I almost feel like ACE should offer refunds to all 2017 and prior backers, because this is not Shadowbane 2, its becoming more and more like WoW (the pathetic NPE is a prime example), with a little GW2 and Shadowbane mixed in.

 

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7 hours ago, Nikko said:

Here is what i think really happened with the development of Crowfall, and remember the basic formula MONEY TALKS!!

Initially the envisioned pretty much a Shadowbane 2

Assuming you haven't been active for quite a while but WoW and its fans don't seem to have any sway on development. Wartribes and NPE have nothing to do with such games.

Passive training makes crafting and progression fairly difficult for pretty much everyone, but especially for new players or those that don't come in with a lot of knowledge or friends to carry them. Wartribe gear is an entry gap closer so everyone can at least get something to be minimally viable. Not equivalent to running dungeons or PVE found in other games. Once training is there, dropped gear should have less purpose for experienced players. Drops for crafting, disciplines, and whatever else though still need a source and mobs fit that role.

NPE is/was in need. There are so many moving parts that overall aren't that complex once you get an understanding, but new players can get lost on just the basics if they don't know what to focus on. A tutorial explaining mounts, bandages, basics of gathering/crafting, etc should be welcome to any game that wants to have a chance to succeed. Players that want to gain such knowledge on their own can obviously bypass such things if they are really hardcore. :rolleyes:

IMO, ACE had a decent concept taking a lot of inspiration from older games and riding the nostalgia crowdfunding wave but little actually created/planned out. The KS video made it seem like there was much more finished. No idea how they saw this launching in 2015/2016. Clearly didn't go as planned.

I don't have exacts, but seems like the vast majority of money/backers came early on. Didn't seem like there was an influx or heavy growth over the years. Definitely wasn't a bunch of WoW players coming in demanding the next themepark hotness (there were a few). If Crowfall was anything like those other games in regards to polish/content, maybe people would actually play... Instead we have a bunch of half realized systems that sound great on paper, but the reality of making them all function is something else. Can make a procedural world building system but can't make guild banks. Sigh.

I didn't want Shadowbane 2.0 but I also didn't want Shadowbane 0.5 either. A modern game should be more feature rich and build upon older game concepts, yet Crowfall is lacking in multiple ways compared to those older products. Is what it is. They'll have to launch at some point, but I hope by then it resembles Crowfall 1.0 and not Alpha 5.2018102 not quite there yet.

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@APE

This was announced in Jan 2020.

“ArtCraft closed an additional round of financing, in the amount of $12m, to complete Crowfall, launch it and bring it to market.” Gamers will recall the studio raised $6M from investors at the start of 2018 as well, in addition to $1.7M raised on Kickstarter and $600K in Indiegogo-based equity crowdfunding. That, plus additional investment and several million in pledges on the website, brings the game to a reported $35M in total funding.

 

As you can see less than 2M of 35M was raised by kickstarters, and as indicated at least 18M by investors since 2018.

 

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7 hours ago, Nikko said:

@APE

This was announced in Jan 2020.

“ArtCraft closed an additional round of financing, in the amount of $12m, to complete Crowfall, launch it and bring it to market.” Gamers will recall the studio raised $6M from investors at the start of 2018 as well, in addition to $1.7M raised on Kickstarter and $600K in Indiegogo-based equity crowdfunding. That, plus additional investment and several million in pledges on the website, brings the game to a reported $35M in total funding.

 

As you can see less than 2M of 35M was raised by kickstarters, and as indicated at least 18M by investors since 2018.

 

@Nikko

My bad Nikko, totally misread your post.

Wrain

 

Edited by Wrain

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:33 AM, Nikko said:

@APE

This was announced in Jan 2020.

“ArtCraft closed an additional round of financing, in the amount of $12m, to complete Crowfall, launch it and bring it to market.” Gamers will recall the studio raised $6M from investors at the start of 2018 as well, in addition to $1.7M raised on Kickstarter and $600K in Indiegogo-based equity crowdfunding. That, plus additional investment and several million in pledges on the website, brings the game to a reported $35M in total funding.

As you can see less than 2M of 35M was raised by kickstarters, and as indicated at least 18M by investors since 2018.

As I said, I don't know nor have I paid attention to the exacts of funding and backer growth. Going by those numbers at least $20 million is from individuals and early backers that likely had similar hopes for the game. Toss in a few more million for the first year or two when there was still a fairly active community. A good chunk has come since, but again, wasn't like one day 100k WoW players appeared and started demanding things.

There has been a VERY small active community in-game and on the forums for years. As someone that has spent way too much time here, I don't agree with your view.

Wartribes/NPE were results of the development process, not to try to be a WoW clone or anything. They coded themselves into corners and have been applying bandaids to get the game done. If crafting wasn't locked behind passive training, EKs worked, there were systems that supported a player run economy, and whatever else, maybe Wartribe gear wouldn't have been needed, but is what it is. NPE is simply a QOL expectation for games in general, this one has a ways to go.

I play Albion Online and it has a starter tutorial and PVE is a large part of the game, despite it actually being more harsh then Crowfall in regards to PVP. I wouldn't say it is trying to be like WoW at all. Games just need content and features or people can't/won't bother.

I'm with you, I probably wouldn't have given them any money years ago and would of just waited to see it at launch if I knew the future. Same goes for all the games I've backed, but I don't regret it either. Still believe they have a strong foundation, but much needs improvement be it before or after launch, just not sure they'll ever get it to the level I'd like.

They didn't promise Shadowbane 2 nor are they making a WoW clone in the least.

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On 7/2/2020 at 4:24 PM, Nikko said:

More and more people out there heard about the game and people started backing it, a majority of these were from Wow and it's clones and had never played Shadowbane so they did not have that mindset. As the developers continually needed more funding they were happy to get funding from these players, but these players started asking for more and more things to make the game more like Wow, Wartribe gear is a great example.

I'll point out that Shadowbane had mob-dropped gear that was exactly like Wartribe gear.


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I'm not trying to say they are making a wow clone, just that this game is so far away from Shadowbane and so close to all the other games released since WoW that it is not even funny.

I have no idea how many of those reading this forum actually even played Shadowbane, but i'll give a few details of that game here.

1. There were 0 quests, 0 tutorials in Shadowbane. You created a character, selected a starting village, and spawned in the middle of it with a few vendors and trainers around you.

2. As you leveled you got to put more points into your stats, like STR, INT etc. And go to trainers to train your skills. As you leveled new skills would open up and you could spend points in them to make them better, or open up new skills. But in the beginning you were restricted to very basic weapons and armor. Mobs did drop gear you could possibly use, while some of it was good, it was only about 75% as good as the stuff you would be able to craft later.

3. The available trainers in various places were limited to rank 4 trainers. A rank 4 trainer could only train your weapons, armor etc to 75-80%,  so you could not equip the best armor etc until you had access to a rank 6 trainer. Also, at level 40 you would open up skills and the trainers could not train them at all. A Druid, for example, (and one of the best farming classes in game) had 3 skills all level 40 and above, that made them a gfreat farmer, but none of these could be trained on the trainers in game.

4. So to craft any weapons, armor or jewelry, or to make bane scrolls to attack another city, or to train his skills to wear the best armor a person had to have access to the vendors in a guild owned city.

5. To own a city a guild had to collect about 3.5 million gold to buy a guild seed and a guild charter. They would create the guild, then run out into the open spaces of the world to plant the seed in a desired location. While they were looking for a spot they could be attacked and killed by opposing people who would then loot the seed and put the original guild back to farming 3 million god to buy another one.

6. Once the guild planted the tree, they would have to farm more gold to buy buildings and vendors they would put in thier buildings. They would have to then rank the building up form 1-7, spending even more gold to do so, and spending more gold to make their tree stronger, build walls etc. In total you would need some 7 training buildings to house 20 trainers, one for each class, and rank each trainers up to at least rank 6 and eventually rank 7, in order for any of your characters to be able to equip 100% or above armor, or train their level 40 or 50 skills. these skills also could be VERY expensive to train.

7. the same is true of armor etc, the city would have to build forges to put in vendors, rank the vendors so they could make the gear, then givethe vendors gold and possibly looted resourced to make the best gear.

8. In all it would take about 250million gold to make a complete city. A city that another guild could bane and take over if they wanted to. Also a guild that wanted it all would have to actually have 2 cities as you could not have all the trainer buildings, and forges etc you needed in one due to city limitations. So more like 500 million gold.

So lets compare that to what Crowfall is:

There is now a tutorial with quests, You dont have to spend gold to train skills. A character can wear Gold Armor, use gold weapons, use gold jewelry from the very beginning.

Skills open up on the talent tree, no gold investment, no waiting for a trainer to be built and trained to train these skills. Crafting tables in the major temples, sure tables in cities have an advantage, but you can still craft really good stuff without ever going to a city to craft and be subjected to pvp and death.

I hope this tries to explain why some of us who backed this game early, when it was supposed to be Shadowbane 2, are a little bit more than disappointed.

 

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@Jah

Not quite, though wartribe gear has finally been nerfed, there are still stats on wartribe gear that cannot be crafted, and in shadowbane, good dropped gear was a a bit more rare, and tended to be on higher level mobs. I've seen some pretty good gear drop from level 5 mobs in Crowfall, and the in the current starter zone i looted a +8 str blue sword with 88 attack power and other stats from one of the glowing piles.

Edited by Nikko

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1 hour ago, Nikko said:

@Jah

Not quite, though wartribe gear has finally been nerfed, there are still stats on wartribe gear that cannot be crafted, and in shadowbane, good dropped gear was a a bit more rare, and tended to be on higher level mobs. I've seen some pretty good gear drop from level 5 mobs in Crowfall, and the in the current starter zone i looted a +8 str blue sword with 88 attack power and other stats from one of the glowing piles.

I'm just talking about the existence of war tribe gear. It's the same basic concept as the random gear that dropped in Shadowbane. The addition of that game mechanic to Crowfall was not a divergence from the Shadowbane mold..

The loot tables are bad and need fixing.


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5 hours ago, APE said:

They coded themselves into corners and have been applying bandaids to get the game done. If crafting wasn't locked behind passive training, EKs worked, there were systems that supported a player run economy, and whatever else, maybe Wartribe gear wouldn't have been needed, but is what it is. 

I wince every time I see them change a core design knowing there are many subsystems that will be effected and need future bandaids. imho, 5.6 - 5.7 time frame was when they changed direction towards PvE, ever since its been a series of bandaids with a few major surgeries scattered in. 

 

5 hours ago, APE said:

Still believe they have a strong foundation, but much needs improvement be it before or after launch, just not sure they'll ever get it to the level I'd like.

I agree, although it all depends on future performance and security. Seeing as we are now going to miss 2020 release, I am hopeful more of the systems I consider essential will be implemented in game for launch. 

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10 hours ago, Nikko said:

I'm not trying to say they are making a wow clone, just that this game is so far away from Shadowbane and so close to all the other games released since WoW that it is not even funny.

I hope this tries to explain why some of us who backed this game early, when it was supposed to be Shadowbane 2, are a little bit more than disappointed.

It wasn't supposed to be Shadowbane 2.0. It was supposed to take inspiration from it and other games along with trying to improve up some of the shortcomings of those games.

Despite the clear copying of some things, unfortunately much of it isn't as interesting as it was in Shadowbane. I assume this is due to numerous factors like a different team, different game design overall, tech, etc.

As someone that only briefly played SB as I enjoyed DAoC at the time, I wasn't expecting SB 2.0 and that's not what I backed for. The current game isn't what I was expecting but that is because most of my expectations came from my imagination, not what was promised or shown.

Obviously it is subjective but not sure how CF is like themepark games because they added in a started quest line that can be done in less than an hour or because mobs in the world drop gear. It's like them saying Crowfall is like EVE because there is a passive system. That is really reaching.

I hope they expand/improve upon character building and progression as it is lacking IMO and not living up to the hype, much of which came from Shadowbane references. Dregs should have some degree of free building, but there seems to be enough grind in regards to building itself. I wouldn't mind them taking another year or even two to get things fleshed out but I doubt that will happen. 

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