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Duffy

Activity Channel Needs Removal/Rework

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The activity channel is far too strong a tool that is leading us into potentially problematic play patterns. The first sign of the problems is that I assume many, as I do myself, are just leaving it open as their primary chat window because it's just too valuable intel to not have in front of your face, that's not a good thing as it simplifies activity and leads into some far more serious issues. The core issue is pack pigs. The goals of those engaging in pack pigs are distinctly different: those grabbing the pigs want to get away without a fight, those hunting them want to engage them (and win). The free intel makes it trivially easy for the attackers to find targets, which means the pig defenders either need to be working during a time when no one is around or be able to win against the attackers. While everything works great if you're winning (as usual), once you start losing it becomes a snowball problem: you can't make progress on building and it's trivially easy for your opponents to track your efforts, they just need a single person in zone to see the messages and rally - especially since the pig defenders move slower than the attackers.

Free intel about movements is just too strong, and given the heavy emphasis on pig activity creates a strong snowball effect. Yes it encourages conflict, but at the expense of progress which will have a stronger negative push on activity as the campaign goes on and folks fall farther and farther behind.

Possible suggestion to help: the addition of something like SB mines to take the place of forts when they get converted to small keeps in addition to pigs to acquiring bulk materials creates a scenario to attract those primarily looking just to fight to both progress and have announced/planned encounters. This helps balance out both methods of progress and conflict with removing the pig announcements and their stifling effects. This may be even easier to do with the fort/keep chests that are coming up as a place to spawn the resources or capture them.

 


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Posted (edited)

I LOVE the Events Tab. It has lead to a lot more PvP engagements. Especially at off hours which was a huge problem the game had. Most of my PvP time has been spent solo so I'm certainly not running around with a group hunting down poor pack pig runners.

I agree the actual chat windows need work. We need to be able to have chat window customization and the ability to have General, Whispers, and Events in one tab if we want.

I disagree that the pigs need to be changed. Running a pig should be a risk and should give some sort of notification as I consider this a small group activity.

The issue is that THE PIGS ARE OVERPOWERED! Harvesting has been completely killed off due to how overpowered the pigs are, how useless crafting is, how hard it is to harvest with crap tools, and how the pigs are not effected by seasonal harvesting debuffs. I strongly disagree with the idea that you can get large amounts of blue+ quality materials by refining caravan blocks.

The alternative to not being able to run caravans should be harvesting. Unfortunately harvesting is useless right now.

 

Edited by ZYBAK

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2 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

The issue is that THE PIGS ARE OVERPOWERED! Harvesting has been completely killed off due to how overpowered the pigs are, how useless crafting is, how hard it is to harvest with crap tools, and how the pigs are not effected by seasonal harvesting debuffs. I strongly disagree with the idea that you can get large amounts of blue+ quality materials by refining caravan blocks.

The alternative to not being able to run caravans should be harvesting. Unfortunately harvesting is useless right now.

Pretty much this.

The things is if you cant run pigs because people are ganking you then you should harverst. The fact is, harversting is waaaaaay less profitable. People would rather chance pigs than go for a safe harversting run.

That is the problem.

Plus we all got used to easy caravan runs and should take that into account.

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4 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

I LOVE the Events Tab. It has lead to a lot more PvP engagements. Especially at off hours which was a huge problem the game had. Most of my PvP time has been spent solo so I'm certainly not running around with a group hunting down poor pack pig runners.

 

 

And of course sometimes failed attempts to gank the gankers. :D

I've found myself doing pig caravans because I am able to produce more green and blue materials that way - primarily because I play solo at the moment.

The events channel is definitely making it easier for the attackers, sometimes that is me, sometimes it is me running the pigs, sometimes both at the same time as somebody is doing a run at the same time.

With how valuable the pigs can be, it makes it feel worth the risk at least in my opinion.

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The refining returns probably need some work it's far too lucrative and if it was just a risky bonus way to get crafting resources I wouldn't see as much of a problem with the announcements, but as the only realistic way to build up fortifications it has a massive impact on the rest of the progression in a campaign. Possibly tying the resource perks and the building progression to the same unit is causing some purpose/goal contention.


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Posted (edited)

Activity Channel needs improvements. Not in the way Duffy says, in my opinion. The main idea is great because it triggers PVP. But the tensity of messages should be reduced. We definitely don't need to know that Outpost guards have respawned. Or that a thrall has killed guards at the outpost. Nobody cares about that cruel and nonsense war between thralls and guards.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

 

The issue is that THE PIGS ARE OVERPOWERED! Harvesting has been completely killed off due to how overpowered the pigs are, how useless crafting is, how hard it is to harvest with crap tools, and how the pigs are not effected by seasonal harvesting debuffs. I strongly disagree with the idea that you can get large amounts of blue+ quality materials by refining caravan blocks.

 

Will only be an issue till skill training catches up.  Once the skill training takes over ppl willl want better ressources than what the carvans can provide and at that time their use will be different once more.

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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On 6/26/2020 at 9:37 PM, Duffy said:

The activity channel is far too strong a tool that is leading us into potentially problematic play patterns. The first sign of the problems is that I assume many, as I do myself, are just leaving it open as their primary chat window because it's just too valuable intel to not have in front of your face, that's not a good thing as it simplifies activity and leads into some far more serious issues. The core issue is pack pigs. The goals of those engaging in pack pigs are distinctly different: those grabbing the pigs want to get away without a fight, those hunting them want to engage them (and win). The free intel makes it trivially easy for the attackers to find targets, which means the pig defenders either need to be working during a time when no one is around or be able to win against the attackers. While everything works great if you're winning (as usual), once you start losing it becomes a snowball problem: you can't make progress on building and it's trivially easy for your opponents to track your efforts, they just need a single person in zone to see the messages and rally - especially since the pig defenders move slower than the attackers.

Free intel about movements is just too strong, and given the heavy emphasis on pig activity creates a strong snowball effect. Yes it encourages conflict, but at the expense of progress which will have a stronger negative push on activity as the campaign goes on and folks fall farther and farther behind.

Possible suggestion to help: the addition of something like SB mines to take the place of forts when they get converted to small keeps in addition to pigs to acquiring bulk materials creates a scenario to attract those primarily looking just to fight to both progress and have announced/planned encounters. This helps balance out both methods of progress and conflict with removing the pig announcements and their stifling effects. This may be even easier to do with the fort/keep chests that are coming up as a place to spawn the resources or capture them.

 

I don't know if I agree the events channel is too strong.  Without a tracking ability we're just going back to the old ways of people being able to run lots of pigs without consequence and it gets really boring.

 

However, I am 100% behind a Mines system.  Whether it solves this problem or not a Mines system does so much good for the game I can't not throw in my advocacy for this suggestion.

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Running pigs is a risk v. reward activity. If a lone pig runner can harvest crazy amounts of material with little risk, then the activity is imbalanced. Adding an alert ping brings PvP into an area that most people complained was too PvE focused and helps balance the material gain from pig running. From what we have seen as the gankers in a lot of these situations is that pig runners are running solo or only with another pig runner in an attempt to maximize reward, but at the same time also maximizing their risk, making it extra juicy to gank. The issue that Ive seen most guilds having in regards to pig running is that they arent doing much to support the pig runners and tend to just leave them to fend for themselves.

The player solution is simple, bring escorts to get ready for the PvP that is bound to happen. Pack pigs should be designed to be a competitive PvP hub that rewards the victors. The new activity log also encourages people to actually fight for outposts for scouting potential instead of just for point gain. Overall, I think the activity log is a great addition because of how it encourages PvP and a step in the right direction for future additions/implementations

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, TheMadEmperor said:

I don't disagree maybe some fine tuning is in place.

What i'm wondering is why people keep suggesting shadowbane features to the guy who made shadowbane in first place.....

I'll speak for myself, since I do this a lot. It's simple, really, I've had enough experiences with game designers who do not understand what is fun or not about the games they design. Perhaps it is a forest but for the trees situation. But a good idea is sometimes worth restating, even if it's simply confirmation.

I need only look at some Crowfall mistakes with some of the best ideas in Shadowbane to realize that restating Shadowbane's successes is a worthy thing to do here. And that's not to mention the things they just have not ported over at all.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, BehindYou said:

Wait, you're upset that the thing they put in to encourage pvp is creating pvp?

I'm upset that it trivializes finding activity and it forces progression through a narrow area of activity that creates snowball effects which in turn decreases overall activity as theirs just nothing you can do to avoid the giant neon sign over your head. As soon as you touch that pig it's now completely in the hands of your opponents, you get no real power over the situation. Either they aren't there or you can beat them, or your stopped dead in your tracks and they can stay on you with trivial ease and the ability to cross maps quickly. It's far too binary a result. And if you happen to be in an area where no one is bothering much or just lucky timing, you can solo farm just as easily.

I'm not upset that bringing people or turning it into a group activity is what matters, Im seeing that it's putting a strong emphasis on having to win so you can have a chance to keep winning and slamming it down our throats, which decreases the chances of groups breaking out. Especially as the numbers of active players increase. After playing campaigns without the messages and now one with it, we had far more engagement and better fights (that we won and lost) in the campaigns without the channel than we have in the one that does have it. I find rewarding lazy groups wanting to just find fights every moment of every day counter intuitive to the idea of a longer build up and mechanics that keep trying to emphasis downward pressure on numbers.

It's really just another mechanic removing any real strategy from the game and turning it more and more into an uncapped battleground masquerading as a strategic sandbox.

 

Edited by Duffy

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I do agree that the names of who does it should be hidden, probably can be dumbed down to An Ally (or An enemy) has tamed a stone pack pig!  Still encourages pvp, and still encourages active scouting to see who it actually is.

Outposts guards who cares, Alerts of objectives Neutralized and Captured are fine.

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It’s funny to see where the lines are drawn.

Whats always brought up is wolves and sheep, cat and mouse. To bad all of you “wolves/cats” can only see the issue from the wolves perspective. What ACE has created with the events channel isn’t a tracking device but an advertisement for the wolves. The event is zone based and tells people exactly where the pigs were taken from. Any of you grow up on a farm and seen the devastation caused when a predator knows exactly where their prey is going to be night after night, day after day? 

 

We also saw first hand how forts are used to limit exposure to pvp and move large quantities of materials with ease and safety. If you don’t understand what that means it’s that the events channel combined with the siege schedule gives larger guilds a significant advantage.


While the game maybe wolves and sheep, no sheep wants to be a sacrificial lamb because the “wolves” have to eat.

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 As someone who has been specifically hunting pig farmers I can tell which pig farmers are smart and which ones are dumb.  I get a toast that tells me where you are, but you are on the move and YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUN TO THE CLOSEST REFINERY, Winks ran more pigs than any of you Solo because he was smart enough to use the refinery's in the siege zones and keep a low profile.  I have missed far more than I have hit with pigs and really enjoyed the mini-game and strategy for pig hunting.  Sounds to me like you need to develop some strategies to elude the pig hunters instead of playing the game like you roll your face on the keyboard and get a cookie at the end.  


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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7 minutes ago, ConstantineX said:

 As someone who has been specifically hunting pig farmers I can tell which pig farmers are smart and which ones are dumb.  I get a toast that tells me where you are, but you are on the move and YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUN TO THE CLOSEST REFINERY, Winks ran more pigs than any of you Solo because he was smart enough to use the refinery's in the siege zones and keep a low profile.  I have missed far more than I have hit with pigs and really enjoyed the mini-game and strategy for pig hunting.  Sounds to me like you need to develop some strategies to elude the pig hunters instead of playing the game like you roll your face on the keyboard and get a cookie at the end.  

I probably agree with this sentiment to a degree. The "pig running meta" is probably severely underdeveloped right now.  Lots of run to pigs, grab as many as you can, and turn in at nearest possible point without any thought about throwing off your enemy.  Though I am very interested to see how epic mounts will affect the intercept time for the hunters.  Since we did not get proper Shadowbane-like Tracking mechanics some sort of information (even if what we get right now is a little too much) is needed to make the PVP-generators actually generate PVP.

 

And again, mines pls.

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ConstantineX said:

 As someone who has been specifically hunting pig farmers I can tell which pig farmers are smart and which ones are dumb.  I get a toast that tells me where you are, but you are on the move and YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUN TO THE CLOSEST REFINERY, Winks ran more pigs than any of you Solo because he was smart enough to use the refinery's in the siege zones and keep a low profile.  I have missed far more than I have hit with pigs and really enjoyed the mini-game and strategy for pig hunting.  Sounds to me like you need to develop some strategies to elude the pig hunters instead of playing the game like you roll your face on the keyboard and get a cookie at the end.  

Interesting, yet you don’t have to run to a refinery at all. You could simply take a centrally located fort during a different siege period than your other holdings, build a caravansary to run the pigs to, then use the world bank building and alts to instantly and safely transport the materials to the forts and keeps where needed. 
 

Nothing short of a 24/7 blockade would stop that, and again both of those options favor a large guild considerably.

Edited by Dakoth

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