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ConstantineX

Campaign Scoring - The good, The Bad, and the Ugly

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Overall I personally did not find the game-play that led to scoring to be rewarding, however we did have a lot of players who did enjoy it so I would love everyone to share their feelings, thoughts and concerns with the current divine favor system(what some people enjoy others hate).  I attached the cards from this campaign so people can say which ones they liked, and which ones they did not.
screenshot.57.jpgscreenshot.56.jpgscreenshot.55.jpgscreenshot.54.jpg

 Still a-lot of confusion around the cards and scoring and it can be difficult to figure out exactly what it is I need to do to score, and without feedback for my efforts until the end of the season I am "endlessly" grinding to an unforeseen horizon. I do not even know at the end what my effort amounted to, was I close? did they try? who knows bet I do that again. 

My personal gripe is the lack of diversity in the cards, the cards are flat out boring. You are telling me I can score if I do something I don't want to do with 90% of the cards and like all of the 1-5 cards.  I understand this is the bread and butter of the system and in theory larger population means I am not grinding rather competing for resources to win the campaign with.  I really love the divine favor system at it's core and think it can be an amazing system to drive player activity, right now I feel like it might be driving  towards a cliff.   Absolutely loved the whole dregs campaign, it was a ton of fun and I already cannot wait for the next one!!


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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It feels like your strategy game is coming together @jtoddcoleman. I had a hell of a lot of fun these past few days... despite the incessant feeling that there were things I needed to do for the success of my guild that I didn't really feel like doing.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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Honestly the only thing I felt like I had to do was run pigs because the building costs for stuff was so high for a 7 day campaign which I understand is just to get more iterations in but this pace of testing with the amount of running it needs to build anything is going to burn out groups if the campaigns remain competitive.

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Posted (edited)

I like that the cards give something for me, as a harvester main, something to contribute outside of pvp. Running caravans doesn't help with taking keeps or forts or pvp'ing, but building buildings is an objective that I can do and be productive. And while PvE objectives aren't the most engaging, it's a way for the little guys who can't take keeps or forts compete with the big dogs who'll almost always win on the Power cards (which are the most PvP-centric). I do wish they were more split into harvesting, crafting, and pvp, but I do think they're diverse enough in the current iteration. It was interesting with the overlap on Justicar's Law and Where Credit is Due. In all the test campaigns I've been in, I think this was the first time where scoring on one helps to score on another.

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Posted (edited)

This campaign really showed off the magic the of Divine Favor system. KGV was not the most dominant guild when it came to pure conquest and siege power. However we played the game with efficiency and didn't try to compete with the dominant force head on.

We didn't own the most conquest objectives but we owned a lot for the amount of people we have. We had an easier time with the "per player" cards because we have less people in our guild. 

Crem made some really good calls. We also were on a razor's edge for this thing so it felt REALLY good having literally EVERYONE's contributions matter in a campaign this close.

- If Grivyn didn't find the Hellcat and get paws...we lose

- If I didn't get as many skulls...we lose

- If the guys didn't run as many pigs and build...we lose

- If we didn't have mining trained guys for Hunger Shards...we lose

- If we had more players in our guild and played slightly less efficiently...we lose

- If we hadn't wasted more of the enemy guild's time...we lose

- If the enemy guild successfully sieged our keep...we lose

It was a Cinderella Story victory and I honestly don't expect it to happen again anytime soon. But the Divine Favor system is cool because THIS KIND OF THING CAN ACTUALLY HAPPEN!

Winning in Crowfall is not purely about who can bring the most people to sieges. 

Edited by ZYBAK

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I agree the top guilds on the scoreboard all had very different strategies for getting there. I like that it doesn't have to be just one way. Although the resource costs for forts vs reward is ridiculous. 

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I lthink it would be great if it rewarded different playstyles or strategies but it just felt like run as many pigs as you could and get an endless fetch quest each season, rinse repeat.  The guild that can most efficiently do those things wins. I really liked cards like "consecrated ground" and "curse of knowing".  When those cards were up they drove fun gameplay I thought.  

The per member additions are nice and I love that smaller guilds can compete, but I have already identified how to break that system. Just alt account 1 man guilds.  If I have 30 people and 100 sac items. I would have scored 3.3sacs/player.   Instead I can score 10x higher on 3 accounts effectively amplifying large numbers through the mechanic.   Same could be done by gifting to other guilds which feels less scurvy to do.


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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1 hour ago, coolster50 said:

I like that the cards give something for me, as a harvester main, something to contribute outside of pvp. Running caravans doesn't help with taking keeps or forts or pvp'ing, but building buildings is an objective that I can do and be productive. And while PvE objectives aren't the most engaging, it's a way for the little guys who can't take keeps or forts compete with the big dogs who'll almost always win on the Power cards (which are the most PvP-centric). I do wish they were more split into harvesting, crafting, and pvp, but I do think they're diverse enough in the current iteration. 

I think some more diversity in the glory cards would be awesome for the PvE guys. The thing that I hate about the glory cards is that all of them require mindless farming just to turn around and sacrifice everything you just farmed. This sort of system just doesn't feel rewarding and I would rather be doing a dozen other things in Crowfall than farm things that I'm just going to throw away.

The Wealth cards are also rough because it forces you to run pigs. I want my bases to feel like they are customized for me and my guild, not for the score cards. I dont want to be forced to run 200 pig spawns to get a level 3 building whose buff I am simply not going to use all because I feel like thats what I need to do to be competitive. 

If ACE added cards for "most wood/ore/stone/leather" farmed per member most gatherers would be much happier. It would even be cool to have cards like "The guild with the member who farmed the most Heartwood/Dust/Whatever gets x/y/z points" would also be another fun one. My biggest take away is that PvE needs to feel rewarding and any PvE activity that leads into more PvP or better future PvP (crafting, harvesting, etc.) would make Glory/Wealth feel less like a chore, and more of an incentive to get the war machine turning and lead to future PvP clashes.

In terms of helping out the little guys on PvP centric cards, there needs to be quality over quantity cards. Something like "The guild with the highest average KDA gets x/y/z points." Or something along the lines of "Whichever guild has the player who gets the highest amount of kills in X days gets x/y/z points." It doesnt all have to be about conquest points and land ownership.

TLDR; The Divine Favor needs some tuning and cards that reward individual player skill/effort would be a great addition as well as adding actual harvesting cards in the future.

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Posted (edited)

 About scoring system in DREGS and win conditions:
I would speak for myself, first of all, and will also express some opinions of people whom I talked to / read their posts about the current scoring system

 

The good:

1. Smaller guilds can compete with bigger guilds and that is a move in the right direction;

2. Cards like "Sacrifice player's sculls to Yaga" bring a lot of fun. I think everyone will agree on that (on the other head Defleshed's collection is gone now 😢)

3. Card like "to have level 3 buildings in your keeps/forts" I personally liked too. It feels like this motivates players to go and attack their competitors keeps/forts. KGV won because we had to choose between TRA's and KGV's forts. If we had chosen to attack KGV's fort instead of TRS's the final result in points would most likely have been different now. But the fundamental principle feels interesting.

 

The bad:

 1. Score cards have very poor description, some of them have almost none. They simply lack some crucial information. It appeared that our guild sacrificed Hunger Shards' sacrifice items into the wrong place 2 days in a row. Also the TOP 3 cards which are active across the whole campaign gave us almost NO DESCRIPTION about how they really work and how the scores are counted for them. Did they add scores every season? Or did they add scores at the end of campaign only? Was it calculated per person or simply for the guild overall? So many questions were left unanswered...  There is also no place on the website or forum where players can see and read the full description for those cards. So we can only assume how these score cards are calculated. Overall, the game lacks description badly almost everywhere starting from the item descriptions, buildings descriptions, and, of course, the worst one is the lack of win conditions / score cards descriptions. This leads to players and the whole guilds wasting their time doing the wrong thing. This can really demotivate people and make then sad.

 

2. Players can not see progress on the score cards. Why nobody can see the progress of how the score cards competition goes? It feels like there should be a scoreboard where people could see the current progress for each card per guild. This would bring much more clarity to the competition and will even boost it. Imagine if at the end of the season one guild will see that they only lack a few skulls to beat the opponent or if they see that they just need to demolish that level 3 building in opponent's fort to have better chances to win. This will only encourage the competition and ignite new conflicts aka PVP.

 

3. This DREGS campaign felt much more like a PVE grind game rather than PVP focused game. I can't exactly formulate what was wrong but it feels like (and I heard the same from many other people) the game was focused on PVE grind for 80% of time. There was just a little PVP and a lot of PVE stuff. People find this boring to have just a ~20 minutes of PVP action during the siege hour and then almost entirely dive into PVE pigs run / circle standing quest (pretty boring when you do it for hours and hours and hours). My thought here is that it happened due to the several factors:

A) Siege window was very small - 1 hour felt like it was not enough to do much on the map, considering that CF demands a lot of running. 1 hour is barely enough for 2 good moves only during the siege time. Especially when developers decreased the number of vulnerable forts/keeps by the siege schedule (which is still a good change I think). 1-hour siege is definitely not enough to have fun for PVP focused players. PVE focused players can choose if they want to join PVP stuff or not anyways. Thus, the 2-hour siege window (for example) would not influence the PVE focused players game experience.


B ) Too many cards for building and upgrading structures in the keeps/forts for a 7-day campaign. One card of that type should have been enough to create a conflict for PVP focused players and content for PVE players. Combined with only 1-hour siege window and siege schedules for keeps and forts made the situation even worse - guilds just didn't have time for strategy games and they had to concentrate solely on PVE pigs grind/runs (again, which was very boring when you do it for hours). EXPECTATION: when you log into Crowfall you expect action, excitement and player versus player environment. REALITY: you run pigs almost all your online time to build level 3 structures in 2 days. This was the issue with previous DREGS campaigns on TEST too (I don't even mention flower-picking / cats killing cards again.....). P.S. I like running pigs from times to times but not 80% of my time in the game.

 

C) It feels like the map was 3 times larger than it should have been. Probably, the reason was that ACE expected that both EU and NA people will play together, maybe this is the reason. Anyways, even previous Dregs campaign maps felt too large and too empty. It would be interesting for the next Dregs campaign to test a much smaller map. For example, 2 Adventure zones and 2 siege zones only and compare how it would work out (definitely, the deficit of resources will trigger more conflicts). Moreover, it should be a good test for servers too. We all saw how the siege server could not handle player population this Saturday which caused many players to crush from the game. So I would like to see those changes made to see how it would work with a much smaller campaign map.

 

D) Finally, it feels like the "circle standing tactics" (capturing outposts back and forth) needs deep rework. First, these outposts make no sense: the guards there are too weak, you can easily capture it with 1 person only. Then you have to stand in the circle for 5-10 minutes each time to full capture them. As a result, we have 2 people running after each other doing the circle standing game. Not fun, 100%. Secondly, some zones have outposts which give strong buffs so everyone wants them. Other zones have outposts which nobody has interest in. Seems unfair. Lastly, even if we capture those re-spawn outposts they can be re-captured by only 1 person once it is left behind. So it makes no sense to capture them at all, to stand in the circle for 10 minutes, so that another player which will come 5 minutes later would have to do the circle stand ritual again for another 10 minutes. This definitely adds a lot to the boredom and makes no sense after all.

 

The ugly:

No ugly stuff for you guys, no salt, no complaints and no hard feelings...  😜

Overall, I can say that I had much more fun this campaign than the previous ones. There were much more good fights, interesting moves and tactics, more strategy games and much less bugs than we saw in previous versions. Except the Kings/Chiefs spawn bug which is just UNACCEPTABLE, of course!!! UNACCEPTABLE_2.0.jpg

Also, there are a lot of concerns that the scoring / card system is still broken and is calculated with a lot of mistakes... but we cannot prove that in any way as we couldn't see the progress because there is no scoreboards to see this information.

 

The most positive thing is that Crowfall evolves, improves and becomes better every month. It's really great to see that ACE listens to the community and makes changes accordingly. I hope to see this continue happening in the future too. I personally did not have high expectations for this Dregs campaign and focused more on testing and having fun. But there are people who take it too serious and, as a result, get upset. I truly believe that we, the community, can make a significant contribution to Crowfall's progression by submitting our feedback and thoughts so that we can make this game better together (sounds too fluffy even for me... but whatever, that's what I really believe in). 😎

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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2 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

This campaign really showed off the magic the of Divine Favor system. KGV was not the most dominant guild when it came to pure conquest and siege power. However we played the game with efficiency and didn't try to compete with the dominant force head on.

We didn't own the most conquest objectives but we owned a lot for the amount of people we have. We had an easier time with the "per player" cards because we have less people in our guild. 

Crem made some really good calls. We also were on a razor's edge for this thing so it felt REALLY good having literally EVERYONE's contributions matter in a campaign this close.

- If Grivyn didn't find the Hellcat and get paws...we lose

- If I didn't get as many skulls...we lose

- If the guys didn't run as many pigs and build...we lose

- If we didn't have mining trained guys for Hunger Shards...we lose

- If we had more players in our guild and played slightly less efficiently...we lose

- If we hadn't wasted more of the enemy guild's time...we lose

- If the enemy guild successfully sieged our keep...we lose

It was a Cinderella Story victory and I honestly don't expect it to happen again anytime soon. But the Divine Favor system is cool because THIS KIND OF THING CAN ACTUALLY HAPPEN!

Winning in Crowfall is not purely about who can bring the most people to sieges. 

This whole post even sounds like you've had to grind and do monotonous/boring things A LOT. You even said that you "honestly don't expect it to happen again anytime soon" which means that most of your players are burned out and it even looks like they have to take a brake from Crowfall for some time. The same thing has happened to HoA and Winterblades before.

 

Anyways, congrats on the victory! I believe that you guys have put a lot of efforts and time into it.

At the same time, most of players would agree that victory should be fun too and not depend so hard on grinding for the 80% of time. 


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Yeah for a PvP centric game this did feel like a 1 dimensional PvE fetch/escort/circle standing game. Outside the 1 hour of good PvP, this game just doesn't feel fun doing those cards.

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22 minutes ago, SAM_BUKA said:

I can't exactly formulate what was wrong but it feels like (and I heard the same from many other people) the game was focused on PVE grind for 80% of time

The Campaign is being designed for 2000 players, not the <200 we have currently in the test. 10x the players might change the feeling from pve grind to pvp bloodbath 😆


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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, miraluna said:

The Campaign is being designed for 2000 players, not the <200 we have currently in the test. 10x the players might change the feeling from pve grind to pvp bloodbath 😆

Okay, I understand that. But why should someone create a world for 2000 players when only 200 actively playing? Is it for the purpose to make life boring and dull for those 200 players?

Even Infected campaign with 2 Adventure zones and 3 siege zones was very empty with both EU and NA players. Why should you create even more: 4 adventure zones and 6 siege zones after that?

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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5 hours ago, Che_Copado said:

The thing that I hate about the glory cards is that all of them require mindless farming just to turn around and sacrifice everything you just farmed. This sort of system just doesn't feel rewarding and I would rather be doing a dozen other things in Crowfall than farm things that I'm just going to throw away.

This was the first campaign in which I can say I spent a decent amount of time killing dozens of mobs for the purpose of sacrificing a bunch of crap... but that was a choice I made. I could have, instead, went about hunting people doing the same; or hunting people running pack pigs; or hunting people taking outposts. It may feel a bit manipulative on the behalf of the developers that I felt the need to help my guildmates grind for hours but I must admit that winning the campaign did make me feel as though the time investment was worth it.

 

4 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

You even said that you "honestly don't expect it to happen again anytime soon" which means that most of your players are burned out and it even looks like they have to take a brake from Crowfall for some time.

The feeling that this kind of victory won't happen for us again soon is born more so out of the belief this victory has painted a target on our backs more so than the belief anyone is burned out.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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Personally I think the divine favor is silly. The grand majority of cards make it feel like the best way to victory is completely avoiding all PvP. It’s the exact opposite of a PvP centric game. It’s also silly that second place in conquest gets the same amount of favor points as first place. 

Also the cards are too vague sometimes. Winters glory card, which brazier in the temples or out in the world at their outposts, who knows? Better more accurate descriptions are needed. 

Also if I were someone who cared about winning the campaign this game would burn me out as is. I totally understand why W and HoA moved on to other games for the time being. And I wouldn’t be surprised if things remain the same more will choose that path as well. 

I remember that part in the Kickstarter about not wanting to grind and wanting to play to crush. Well there’s lots of unrewarding grind and crushing your enemy means nothing. 

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As Leadership in the smallest guild to score top ten I have a unique viewpoint.

We had 11 Total Players Participate in The campaign. 5 of them vets, the other six JUST STARTED PLAYING During THE CAMPAIGN!

We are a large guild but are playing several other games at the moment and its been difficult to recruit more LotD to play a game in Alpha rather than games that are more polished like Albion.

We played the outpost/landless game and focused on playing the per player cards- only capping a fort at the end of winter.

The campaign was fun -but if the purpose of a campaign in to pull resources out of a dying world, yet sacrificing resources to the gods got you points- you kind of have goals that are diametrically opposed.

I would like to see zone based capture point bonuses.- We held most of Garantol Moreden for the entire campaign outpost wise. Zone control was a fun way to play.

 

Possible Suggestion?   Give all participants the number of exports based on their teams Divine favor scorefinaldivinefavor.jpg


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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5 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

You even said that you "honestly don't expect it to happen again anytime soon" which means that most of your players are burned out and it even looks like they have to take a brake from Crowfall for some time. The same thing has happened to HoA and Winterblades before.

No. It's just unlikely that everything comes together perfectly for us while simultaneously having our opposition make strategic errors.

We also have a HUGE target on our back now. We're fully expecting to get payback from the larger guilds for this one. 

It's not a Cinderella Story if it happens all the time. 

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6 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

2. Players can not see progress on the score cards. Why nobody can see the progress of how the score cards competition goes? It feels like there should be a scoreboard where people could see the current progress for each card per guild. This would bring much more clarity to the competition and will even boost it. Imagine if at the end of the season one guild will see that they only lack a few skulls to beat the opponent or if they see that they just need to demolish that level 3 building in opponent's fort to have better chances to win. This will only encourage the competition and ignite new conflicts aka PVP.

The level of obfuscation of progress in the game currently is absolutely necessary to its competitive aspect. It demands that you actively play and consider the actions of your opponents to determine what their goals are and determining a course of action to stop them. Knowing that there's a (what could be assumed is an insurmountable) gulf in what your competition has towards a goal and what you do can also significantly demoralize a team and help them conclude that they shouldn't even keep trying/playing. After a season has ended it would be great if a guild could see who contributed what to a specific goal but that's about as much disclosure they should allow.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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