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ConstantineX

Campaign Scoring - The good, The Bad, and the Ugly

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33 minutes ago, moneda said:

 

You can't speak for most people. Because of my work schedule I anticipate missing the vast majority of sieges. The small scale PvP is often way more fun than blobs pecking at each other and occurs way more often.

I can only verify that KGV did all of the above, depending on what cards were up and how we felt in the moment. After the siege Sunday night KGV determined it needed a great deal of PvE done in order to even guarantee a 2nd placing in DF, but we also spent a decent amount of time until the campaign ended killing groups running pack pigs (and then running those pigs ourselves, yes) which can have a significant amount of time spent not gaining anything but poorly made dergss and giggles.

Just a question because I know why CC agreed to siege Dis that last siege. Why did KGV? As far as we know you don’t have an official alliance with LoD just like we don’t. I have an idea as to why you did I’d just like to see if I’m right.

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1 minute ago, moneda said:

Heh, that's a question for @cremdalacrem. Boss man just points in a direction and I shoot at the red names.

Well tell @cremdalacrem to get to it.

 

our specific goal was to try and deny Dis points through the destruction of buildings.

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3 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

Just a question because I know why CC agreed to siege Dis that last siege. Why did KGV? As far as we know you don’t have an official alliance with LoD just like we don’t. I have an idea as to why you did I’d just like to see if I’m right.

Because we had to stop:

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   Official Moderator of the Unofficial Crowfall Discord!  Come join the discussion @ https://discord.me/crowfall

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47 minutes ago, moneda said:

You can't speak for most people. Because of my work schedule I anticipate missing the vast majority of sieges. The small scale PvP is often way more fun than blobs pecking at each other and occurs way more often.

A brave fighter Moneda would not even qualify to be in the core PVP group if he was in DIS. His place would have been somewhere on the outskirts...

Moneda_the_Brave.jpg

 

Top_tier_PVP_DIS.jpg

 

54 minutes ago, moneda said:

I can only verify that KGV did all of the above, depending on what cards were up and how we felt in the moment. After the siege Sunday night KGV determined it needed a great deal of PvE done in order to even guarantee a 2nd placing in DF, but we also spent a decent amount of time until the campaign ended killing groups running pack pigs (and then running those pigs ourselves, yes) which can have a significant amount of time spent not gaining anything but poorly made dergss and giggles.

So you and your guild mates decided to dive deep into PVE grind super hard during the low server times when there is none on the server. And, to be honest, that really worked out. But is this the DERGS we all want to have in the future? A PVE low population time grind of pigs / hunger shards / hell cats ...etc.? Is this what you mean when you say THRONE WARS? I doubt.


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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23 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

@SAM_BUKA JTodd has always been clear that these cards are intended to put down ward pressure on larger guilds as a way to combat uncle bob.

Alliance mechanics.


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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38 minutes ago, Duffy said:

How much built up stuff actually changed hands or was destroyed by the top couple of guilds? (I really don't know, it seems like not much from what I can tell, it looks like most things did not change hands but some input from those guilds would give us insight). If their was fighting/destruction over those objectives add in the knock on effects from those fights to the Top cards and PvP can swing things pretty wildly.

W captured uXa's keep, and that did result in W getting points from Wealth and Power cards we wouldn't have otherwise gotten.


IhhQKY6.gif

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4 minutes ago, SAM_BUKA said:

A brave fighter Moneda would not even qualify to be in the core PVP group if he was in DIS.

That is so very interesting and I am glad to have gained this knowledge.

4 minutes ago, SAM_BUKA said:

So you and your guild mates decided to dive deep into PVE grind super hard

I don't know where you are in the world but I'm almost certain there are online classes you can take to work on your reading comprehension, which you should do if that's what you believe I wrote.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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37 minutes ago, Tigari said:

No one came for the KGV keep when it was up. We did recall once due to a sighting, but it was just a solo with a catapult who was dealt with by the people we had on Defensive watch.

Yeah, that's right. We went to TRA because we knew these guys can give us a good competitive fight. We didn't expect that DREGS campaign was so much dependent on PVE solo farm... that was a mistake (or was it?). Many kudos to @ZYBAK who almost solely carried a victory for the whole guild! He is definitely one of the best player with his unique play-style.


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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1 hour ago, moneda said:

"This was the first campaign in which I can say I spent a decent amount of time killing dozens of mobs for the purpose of sacrificing a bunch of crap... but that was a choice I made. I could have, instead, went about hunting people doing the same; or hunting people running pack pigs; or hunting people taking outposts. It may feel a bit manipulative on the behalf of the developers that I felt the need to help my guildmates grind for hours but I must admit that winning the campaign did make me feel as though the time investment was worth it".

 

"KGV determined it needed a great deal of PvE done in order to even guarantee a 2nd placing..."

"Because of my work schedule I anticipate missing the vast majority of sieges. The small scale PvP is often way more fun than blobs pecking at each other and occurs way more often".  (aka, which means that you were mostly online outside of the peak times)

I mean... is there any cognitive dissonance going on or what? It seems like you are denying your own words.


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Just now, SAM_BUKA said:

I mean... is there any cognitive dissonance going on or what? It seems like you are denying your own words.

Nah, "dive deep into PVE grind super hard during the low server times when there is none on the server" are your words buddy.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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12 minutes ago, moneda said:

I didn't say that you can never win fights. Sometimes you can. But man... 22 kills in total seems a little bit too weak for a brave warrior who says that he did PVP most of the time in 7-day campaign. So in average you killed 3 people a day, right? If I assume that you played 3 hours per day in average, it would result in 1 kill per hour. That is what you call 'decent', right?


I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Posted (edited)

To sum up, my main point here is that this DREGS campaign had too many PVE grind and too little action. This has to be changed because none appreciates solo PVE grind for scores. Even ACE does not encourage that. They stated it clearly.

 

So here I will finish this discussion. I don't want to measure whose... gun is bigger. My goal is to show that the score system is very one-sided right now in favor of PVE grind activities.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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6 hours ago, PSIcoh said:

I do have to disagree and agree with different parts of your point here @moneda. I don't think the obfuscation is absolutely necessary. I believe having at least some idea of where the rankings are currently would lead to more interesting decision making in a guild's strategy. I'm not sure I would advocate for knowing exactly what the scores are at any given time and seeing how much of a lead the guild in first has, but having some information like who's currently in 1st, 2nd, & 3rd might create interesting strategies. For example, if guild 1 is super far ahead on one card, maybe they  focus the other cards with the remaining time. But this also opens guild 1 up to getting lazy and a situation where guild 2 has been stockpiling resources and dumps them at the last second for an upset. Or that same situation can go the other way with the guild 2 working towards closing that gap - forcing guild 1 to pay attention to it and splitting their attention.

I think that just leads to a situation where everyone hoards till the end of the season to not give away info to their enemies. We'll just end up where we are now where no one knows who's in the lead, because no one will start scoring till the last second


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Posted (edited)

Asymmetric PvP is the point I'll hammer on for this genre. Keep it in mind when you think about the game and the role of PvE in generating PvP, and things may clarify.

My favorite aspect of the Divine Favor system is that it gives guild-level sub-goals. I sign-on, and depending on who is on and how many, I join or start a group to try to make progress on a sub-goal. I do those things in the world, and am therefore subjected to potential PvP. 

I am always skeptical when I read pro-PvP perspectives that give no harbor to the idea PvE (aka indirect PvP) goals sustain different PvP opportunities than PvP goals. This game is not a lobby PvP game. You don't get to schedule your killing for dinner and have that be the end-all. I am not criticizing the desire for that, but there are other genres for it (MOBAs, shooters, arena MMOs). 

Sometimes I think the criticism is coming from a misunderstanding because so many like games partition their PvE and PvP. WoW is the primary example of this kind of thing. PvP fans can get immediate fun from WoW arenas. It's controlled, predictable, you literally sign-up for it.

Crowfall is of a different ilk. You very rarely sign-up for PvP. It comes to you at different times during the game. Sometimes you are alone and get rolled, sometimes you roll a loner. Sometimes you get an even numbers fight, and sometimes you get a four-way fight. Sometimes you run around and there is nobody to fight, so you need other things to do (Divine Favor helps immensely) other times you really want to do some Divine Favor things or build your keep and you just keep getting rolled.

Asymmetric PvP is harder to support in a game because some players find the stretches of no PvP to be too boring and other players find the omnipresent threat of PvP too daunting.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, SAM_BUKA said:

To sum up, my main point here is that this DREGS campaign had too many PVE grind and too little action. This has to be changed because none appreciates solo PVE grind for scores. Even ACE does not encourage that. They stated it clearly.

 

So here I will finish this discussion. I don't want to measure whose... gun is bigger. My goal is to show that the score system is very one-sided right now in favor of PVE grind activities.

You literally brought out KDA screenshots to try to demean the person debating you. If that was a worthy tactic then nobody would ever listen to me, the dwarf who died a thousand deaths.

You have reasonable points about the balance between PvE and PvP activity. But your insistence is causing you to exaggerate the imbalance, IMO. Again, Crowfall needs PvE activities to have high value so that PvP activities can harness some of that value, too. In a similar way, primary PvP (sieges) require PvE preparation, and so those PvE activities gain value because the sieges have high value.

It's more symbiotic.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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3 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I think that just leads to a situation where everyone hoards till the end of the season to not give away info to their enemies. We'll just end up where we are now where no one knows who's in the lead, because no one will start scoring till the last second

I disagree we would end up right back where we are now - but it is a possibility that I cannot completely discredit - so fair play. I believe that showing the scoring information (either who is in 1st, 2nd, 3rd; or the exact scoring of each guild) would lead to more choices, decisions, and compromises than just going after all the cards all the time and hoping you did more than the other guilds. I would think that you and Moneda would agree it's not fun to just discover at the end of a season that you spending so much tie on something you probably don't enjoy didn't quite cut it. But I don't wanna put words in your mouths, so correct me if that's not the case.

More information allows all guilds to make better decisions: for example we can all see conquest points and make decisions based around that. It's a largely PvE option within the larger PvP game, but it informs and creates opportunities for PvP. Or are the Conquest points a completely separate and incomparable example to most people?

Maybe there's a new option that I haven't thought of that could solve this, but this was one of the simplest and most "easily" implemented that I could see.

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Not a whole lot of people seem to understand as population scales these cards are meant to lock guilds out from competing in them all so as to give advantages based on size. 
 

KGV is close to us in active players, or at least from what we can tell. Do you believe that if the population jumps from 100 to 2000 that a guild of 10-20 is going to be able to hold any size keep? If your answer is if that’s the max size of guilds. Then I’ll point out that at 20 people per guild and 2000 people that means that 100 guilds are competing for how many keeps again? 10, 20? If you answer is no then understand there will be cards that guilds won’t ever be able to score on. 
 

 

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