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ConstantineX

Campaign Scoring - The good, The Bad, and the Ugly

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8 minutes ago, PSIcoh said:

I disagree we would end up right back where we are now - but it is a possibility that I cannot completely discredit - so fair play. I believe that showing the scoring information (either who is in 1st, 2nd, 3rd; or the exact scoring of each guild) would lead to more choices, decisions, and compromises than just going after all the cards all the time and hoping you did more than the other guilds. I would think that you and Moneda would agree it's not fun to just discover at the end of a season that you spending so much tie on something you probably don't enjoy didn't quite cut it. But I don't wanna put words in your mouths, so correct me if that's not the case.

More information allows all guilds to make better decisions: for example we can all see conquest points and make decisions based around that. It's a largely PvE option within the larger PvP game, but it informs and creates opportunities for PvP. Or are the Conquest points a completely separate and incomparable example to most people?

Maybe there's a new option that I haven't thought of that could solve this, but this was one of the simplest and most "easily" implemented that I could see.

I go back and forth on this one. I tend to fall on the less information side, though, because I'd rather guilds have to try to gather intel on each other rather than use the scoreboard. I view it like any secretive aspect of a game, where you try to bluff or obscure your strategy from your opponents. There are so, so few opportunities to do this type of thing in an MMO, and I'm loathe to be rid of it.

It does not feel good to learn you did too much, but I'm not sure that bad feeling is worth allowing guilds to know they had perfect efficiency.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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8 minutes ago, PSIcoh said:

I believe that showing the scoring information (either who is in 1st, 2nd, 3rd; or the exact scoring of each guild) would lead to more choices, decisions, and compromises than just going after all the cards all the time and hoping you did more than the other guilds.

 

5 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

understand there will be cards that guilds won’t ever be able to score on.

Yeeeaaahhh, there were lots of conversations between members of KGV smarter than myself about what cards we should put time into based upon previous seasons and what the competition seemed to be putting time into. Going after all the cards all the time was in no way feasible.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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@SAM_BUKA

 

To be fair every time I went out to do pigs we were hounded by groups, including yours that is at least twice our size. Holding a dominant position and numbers gives you a strong advantage in splitting manpower while still suppressing other groups. This is an example of winning making winning easier and skewing a viewpoint. This is key to why I think the pig notifications need to go as it makes it too easy to maintain a dominant position which makes suppressesing competition too easy to accomplish.

You say easy PvE grinding made it boring, my experience was literally the opposite.


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1 hour ago, SAM_BUKA said:

I really don't think that a good dad should say that.... the way you talk to people is the way you also talk to your family too.  Consuetudo est altera natura

Bad_dad.jpg

I in no way talk to my kids how I talk to people on the internet.. I respect them enough to tell them when they're being dumb, and I want them to improve themselves. People on the internet I'll just let prattle on in their own little world. I assume others are the same. 


Xeilias - Through Strength of Arms, We Bring Peace

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53 minutes ago, moneda said:

 

Yeeeaaahhh, there were lots of conversations between members of KGV smarter than myself about what cards we should put time into based upon previous seasons and what the competition seemed to be putting time into. Going after all the cards all the time was in no way feasible.

We do the same especially when it comes to the buildings because of the short campaign length.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Duffy said:

@SAM_BUKA

 

To be fair every time I went out to do pigs we were hounded by groups, including yours that is at least twice our size. Holding a dominant position and numbers gives you a strong advantage in splitting manpower while still suppressing other groups. This is an example of winning making winning easier and skewing a viewpoint. This is key to why I think the pig notifications need to go as it makes it too easy to maintain a dominant position which makes suppressesing competition too easy to accomplish.

You say easy PvE grinding made it boring, my experience was literally the opposite.

You didn't do it during the night/morning times. Many people did. These hours there was literary none around. Yes, we had groups who concentrated on killing caravan runners specifically, but it does not work any more as soon as people log out. I'm personally a "night player", so I know.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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5 hours ago, neven said:

Dregs cards

1. There needs to be UI added with metrics displayed on each seasonal card as to where your guild is at.  This will let guilds know right away if they are doing something wrong. (Only see your own guilds numbers)

2. Intent of the cards can be misleading, I have seen long drawn out discussions on how some cards can be interpreted as.  You should not need a wiki to explain a win condition.

3. DF should be increased from card to scale 1 - 10, per member based cards will still keep smaller guilds in the running but it will help make the conquest side of things not seem as worthless.

4. Player Temple merchants selling card objective items, do you want this to be a factor in scoring?  Personally don't care, but some in house discussion should happen before guilds start using commerce to be kingmakers 😛

5. Need cards that are not scaled at all, just meet the requirement, you get the points.  These can be 5 pts.  Ie. The rank 3 class-b card was an unhealthy grind and can burn people out and only large guilds can really score high on this.

  1. Opens guilds up for too much spying, imo. I could have my sooper sekret alt Retslooc join your guild and just be there looking at your scoreboard seeing where you're scoring. Or a streamer could accidentally open up the scoreboard and boom everyone knows where you guys are at. I feel there are more risks than advantages
  2. Agreed. Like, does "enemy God" mean not D'Orion or not Earth?
  3. No opinion
  4. Would be interesting if a PvE Merchant guild came along and was selling Sac shards and Hellcat Paws for 50k gold. I don't mind people playing kingmaker, there just has to be a cost benefit analysis to it. Or have mechanics that discourage it, but leave the possibility open.
  5. I dunno. If you just had to meet the requirements, there's little point to keep running around once you've qualified
2 hours ago, Duffy said:

And to my greater point, a quick count just from this campaign's seasonal cards shows at least 45 points that could have taken/prevented simply by PvPing over each other's forts/keeps. How much built up stuff actually changed hands or was destroyed by the top couple of guilds? (I really don't know, it seems like not much from what I can tell, it looks like most things did not change hands but some input from those guilds would give us insight). If their was fighting/destruction over those objectives add in the knock on effects from those fights to the Top cards and PvP can swing things pretty wildly.

KGV took a fort from Corvus that had a half built Slaughterhouse and we ranked it up to 3.

26 minutes ago, PSIcoh said:

I disagree we would end up right back where we are now - but it is a possibility that I cannot completely discredit - so fair play. I believe that showing the scoring information (either who is in 1st, 2nd, 3rd; or the exact scoring of each guild) would lead to more choices, decisions, and compromises than just going after all the cards all the time and hoping you did more than the other guilds. I would think that you and Moneda would agree it's not fun to just discover at the end of a season that you spending so much tie on something you probably don't enjoy didn't quite cut it. But I don't wanna put words in your mouths, so correct me if that's not the case.

More information allows all guilds to make better decisions: for example we can all see conquest points and make decisions based around that. It's a largely PvE option within the larger PvP game, but it informs and creates opportunities for PvP. Or are the Conquest points a completely separate and incomparable example to most people?

Maybe there's a new option that I haven't thought of that could solve this, but this was one of the simplest and most "easily" implemented that I could see.

To me, I'd rather spend a lot of time on something and not win rather than not spend the time and lose. I guess I agree that knowing how well your opponent is doing would lead to different strategies, and there's no feedback about it for the Glory cards, like you can look at your opponent's buildings for Wealth or the map for Power (in a lot of cases). So I guess there should be some indirect way to know how you're doing on Glory relative to your competitors. I'm not sure how you would be able to do that though without directly saying Guild A is currently #1 Guild C is currently #2 Guild B is currently #3, which I don't like. Maybe if there was a guild specific sac location somewhere and the size of the fire says how well the god is pleased by your guild? Not very scalable with the number of unique guilds though.

22 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

Not a whole lot of people seem to understand as population scales these cards are meant to lock guilds out from competing in them all so as to give advantages based on size. 
 

KGV is close to us in active players, or at least from what we can tell. Do you believe that if the population jumps from 100 to 2000 that a guild of 10-20 is going to be able to hold any size keep? If your answer is if that’s the max size of guilds. Then I’ll point out that at 20 people per guild and 2000 people that means that 100 guilds are competing for how many keeps again? 10, 20? If you answer is no then understand there will be cards that guilds won’t ever be able to score on. 
 

 

A Keep? Maybe. A Fort? Definitely not. If there's 100 guilds and only 30 forts/keeps, we're going to be fighting against 59+ other guilds constantly to try and hold onto a fort, and it's not like sieging a fort is hard.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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9 minutes ago, coolster50 said:
  1. Opens guilds up for too much spying, imo. I could have my sooper sekret alt Retslooc join your guild and just be there looking at your scoreboard seeing where you're scoring. Or a streamer could accidentally open up the scoreboard and boom everyone knows where you guys are at. I feel there are more risks than advantages
  2. Agreed. Like, does "enemy God" mean not D'Orion or not Earth?
  3. No opinion
  4. Would be interesting if a PvE Merchant guild came along and was selling Sac shards and Hellcat Paws for 50k gold. I don't mind people playing kingmaker, there just has to be a cost benefit analysis to it. Or have mechanics that discourage it, but leave the possibility open.
  5. I dunno. If you just had to meet the requirements, there's little point to keep running around once you've qualified

KGV took a fort from Corvus that had a half built Slaughterhouse and we ranked it up to 3.

To me, I'd rather spend a lot of time on something and not win rather than not spend the time and lose. I guess I agree that knowing how well your opponent is doing would lead to different strategies, and there's no feedback about it for the Glory cards, like you can look at your opponent's buildings for Wealth or the map for Power (in a lot of cases). So I guess there should be some indirect way to know how you're doing on Glory relative to your competitors. I'm not sure how you would be able to do that though without directly saying Guild A is currently #1 Guild C is currently #2 Guild B is currently #3, which I don't like. Maybe if there was a guild specific sac location somewhere and the size of the fire says how well the god is pleased by your guild? Not very scalable with the number of unique guilds though.

A Keep? Maybe. A Fort? Definitely not. If there's 100 guilds and only 30 forts/keeps, we're going to be fighting against 59+ other guilds constantly to try and hold onto a fort, and it's not like sieging a fort is hard.

Keep? Fort? It doesn’t matter if you own it some one else doesn’t.

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I don’t even recall building a slaughterhouse anywhere, wonder if it was there when we took it. I know we had one or two for caps we didn’t really bother to hold.


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2 minutes ago, Duffy said:

I don’t even recall building a slaughterhouse anywhere, wonder if it was there when we took it.

I'm almost certain it was a fort you'd just taken from someone else before we showed up, yeah.


Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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11 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

You didn't do it during the night/morning times. Many people did. These hours there was literary none around. Yes, we had groups who concentrated on killing caravan runners specifically, but it does not work any more as soon as people log out. I'm personally a "night player", so I know.

Your guild capped a fort in an adventure zone that was centrally located and built it up specifically to make pack pig runs as short as possible to avoid pvp.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dakoth said:

Your guild capped a fort in an adventure zone that was centrally located and built it up specifically to make pack pig runs as short as possible to avoid pvp.

I don't think that avoiding PVP is a DIS strategy. You might have mixed up DIS with someone else. Also, capturing forts and keeps to control the territory and resources is the core of strategic gameplay.

 

I would better recommend you @Dakoth and other people from this thread to address these concerns to KGV members who are likely to have a squad of players based in Russia and who did a ton of PVE farming for them during the night time...

@ComradeAma

Did Cinderella story just got a bit dirty? 🤔

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Sure the system needs work but its new.  It will evolve into something better with time.  It was nice to have objectives when you logged in that you could work towards besides waiting for lame timers for sieges (another discussion).

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2 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

I would better recommend you @Dakoth and other people from this thread to address these concerns to KGV members who are likely to have a squad of players based in Russia and who did a ton of PVE farming for them during the night time...

@ComradeAma

Did Cinderella story just got a bit dirty? 🤔

LOL, it sounds like you're really not taking defeat too well in an alpha test. 😂

Did you just want to zerg the server down with numbers or something? Got upset you couldn't?

I'm just a lurker these days, but I've known Comrade for years. He's russian and plays both servers and always has. He has some buddies that play with him. In NA he's been with the group that plays with Crem since the beginning (first Sugoi, now KGV). I'm brazilian and back in 5.8 my timezone and work schedule made it so I was always around for circle standing in off peak times. All that circle standing across different timezones really helped Chaos secure a victory in EU back then. It is what it is. As long as these objectives exist, variations of "night capping" will always be a thing, even META 🤷‍♂️

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the current way DV cards work either. In that I do agree with your points. Too much pve for my own tastes. The cards are cool in concept, and I love how they give smaller guilds a chance, but I don't want to log on and go farm mobs and hit rocks and sacrifice flowers/paws to contribute to my guild's victory. Maybe a higher pop will improve on that, maybe it won't. But I already accepted, CF may not be the game for me, I prefer to spend most of my online time doing pvp (preferably polished and balanced).


 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

LOL, it sounds like you're really not taking defeat too well in an alpha test. 😂

Did you just want to zerg the server down with numbers or something? Got upset you couldn't?

I'm just a lurker these days, but I've known Comrade for years. He's russian and plays both servers and always has. He has some buddies that play with him. In NA he's been with the group that plays with Crem since the beginning (first Sugoi, now KGV). I'm brazilian and back in 5.8 my timezone and work schedule made it so I was always around for circle standing in off peak times. All that circle standing across different timezones really helped Chaos secure a victory in EU back then. It is what it is. As long as these objectives exist, variations of "night capping" will always be a thing, even META 🤷‍♂️

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the current way DV cards work either. In that I do agree with your points. Too much pve for my own tastes. The cards are cool in concept, and I love how they give smaller guilds a chance, but I don't want to log on and go farm mobs and hit rocks and sacrifice flowers/paws to contribute to my guild's victory. Maybe a higher pop will improve on that, maybe it won't. But I already accepted, CF may not be the game for me, I prefer to spend most of my online time doing pvp (preferably polished and balanced).

I really do not care about winning campaign in Alpha. Moreover, I already won a campaign with HoA in v. 5.110.... still does not count as the game is still in raw state, as you mentioned. My goal is to point out where the score system is still broken. So that the game could become more balanced, PVP and PVE wise. so that players like you would return to Crowfall so that we could play together.

It's good to see that peoplr also agree on the points I made about the excessive amount of PVE in the Dregs campaign right now. It means that a lot of people feel the same way.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

I have never claimed any leadership positions in DIS. I express my own thoughts and opinions.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

I don't think that avoiding PVP is a DIS strategy. You might have mixed up DIS with someone else. Also, capturing forts and keeps to control the territory and resources is the core of strategic gameplay.

 

I would better recommend you @Dakoth and other people from this thread to address these concerns to KGV members who are likely to have a squad of players based in Russia and who did a ton of PVE farming for them during the night time...

@ComradeAma

Did Cinderella story just got a bit dirty? 🤔

You seem to confuse avoiding PvP with avoiding losing battles. You should mitigate risk and avoid losses that set you back, that’s PvP 101. Minimize risk and loss, like setting up a good collection fort location. 

I had a few DIS players running from me while trying to gank them (poorly I might add) during early morning pig runs. I don’t blame them for running it was the smart thing to do. (I later got friends to come by and we got a few before more collapsed on us and whooped us)

You don’t dive into fights you’re unlikely to win AND set you back. That’s just a waste of time and energy. Which is why DIS lost in the end, they never bothered to use PvP to actually win, they just used it for entertainment. They rode a numbers advantage and looked for random PvP and killing easy targets while letting the real threats to winning build up their victory.

When you start viewing PvP as a tool instead of a reward for logging in and adjust your strategy you’ll find much more consistent results. Fighting to fight without paying attention to competing objectives will result in “confusing outcomes” that make you think scoring is broken like last campaign.

Edited by Duffy

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2 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

It's good to see that peoplr also agree on the points I made about the excessive amount of PVE in the Dregs campaign right now. It means that a lot of people feel the same way.

When you are late to the party but think you are the first to arrive. ;)

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6 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

LOL, it sounds like you're really not taking defeat too well in an alpha test. 😂

Did you just want to zerg the server down with numbers or something? Got upset you couldn't?

I'm just a lurker these days, but I've known Comrade for years. He's russian and plays both servers and always has. He has some buddies that play with him. In NA he's been with the group that plays with Crem since the beginning (first Sugoi, now KGV). I'm brazilian and back in 5.8 my timezone and work schedule made it so I was always around for circle standing in off peak times. All that circle standing across different timezones really helped Chaos secure a victory in EU back then. It is what it is. As long as these objectives exist, variations of "night capping" will always be a thing, even META 🤷‍♂️

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the current way DV cards work either. In that I do agree with your points. Too much pve for my own tastes. The cards are cool in concept, and I love how they give smaller guilds a chance, but I don't want to log on and go farm mobs and hit rocks and sacrifice flowers/paws to contribute to my guild's victory. Maybe a higher pop will improve on that, maybe it won't. But I already accepted, CF may not be the game for me, I prefer to spend most of my online time doing pvp (preferably polished and balanced).

As population grows you won’t have to because it will be inefficient or just plain impossible for guilds of certain sizes to score with certain cards.

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