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How do we balance Frostguards?


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At this point of 5.115 we have established the meta and have a general consensus that Frostguards need to be nerfed. Lets discuss it and identify the parts of FG that need to be tuned/nerfed/fixed and help the devs understand our point of view as players concerning the class.

Ill give a few points that I, as a FG main, feel like we need to fix.

1. Volatile Ice is not working as intended. The tooltip claims a short delay between the ice appearing and it going off. It simply doesn't do that, instead it is instant. The instant nuke and CC are causing volatile to be the most OP and abused part of FG. The general consensus is that it needs a damage nerf and the delay needs to work as intended in order to allow counterplay.

2. Frost armor needs a numbers tuning. 35% mitigations that is hard to take off is a really strong ability and is a major draw to playing this class with or without the insane damage output they already have. However, 35% is probably too much. Leather wearers cap out at 40% and mail caps at 50%, meaning that frost armor can almost cap leather wearers while naked and mail wearers cap out in the most basic white gear available. Ive heard suggestions from the community to either make it easier to remove, or simply reducing the armor it gives by 10-15%

 

Discuss, critique, bring up new points, and most importantly, keep it civil and focused on what we think that the main issues with frostguards are so that the devs have a better idea about how the player base feels about this class.

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The question is whats the volatile explosion time supposed to be base?  Since the Archmage is supposed to have half the time for activation so I'm curious what the other 2 lines are supposed to be at.

 

Edited by MrErad
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3 minutes ago, MrErad said:

The question is whats the volatile explosion time supposed to be base?  Since the Archmage is supposed to have half the time for activation.

I remember seeing a 1.25s tooltip in past patches, but I dont remember if that was the base or the reduced version. Either way, there needs to be enough time to dodge it similar to Archdruid bombs in order to allow counterplay. Numbers can always be tweaked and refined, but there needs to be enough of a delay to dodge it.

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The fact that the volatile cc has no cooldown is certainly part of it.

Miss your knockdown? No problem. Do it again! Opponent dodged two? Just keep spamming and you'll get em eventually.

A guildmate suggested that it be made part of a combo with other skills, like freezing blast -eg. Freezing Blast primes enemies for knockdown, then Volatile detonates and triggers the cc, or vice versa.

That way there is an effective ~9s cooldown between knockdowns, there is an actual penalty for missing, and opposing players have some idea that they are about to be cced so they can react accordingly.

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51 minutes ago, DivingOurLine said:

I remember seeing a 1.25s tooltip in past patches, but I dont remember if that was the base or the reduced version. Either way, there needs to be enough time to dodge it similar to Archdruid bombs in order to allow counterplay. Numbers can always be tweaked and refined, but there needs to be enough of a delay to dodge it.

I dont think melee will have counter play still.  So 1.25 until detonation  with a ice weave cast we're up to 2.25s. Thats if you're spamming the weave holding it any longer and you can sync it with a targets retaliate now.   Not to mention there's always more than one frostguard. 

Confessors 2 ways to group CC both with basically a 20s+ Cooldown.

Templar Knockdown 9s  has to be within 5m  unless they're parrying. Fury would be about 20+ on the divine 1 application of KD.

Arbiter 20s for their holy symbol


I'm sure I'm missing a few classes but that was the 3 easiest for me to pull up.

So lets say the new delayed Frostguard can basically throw a KD out every 2.25s with 5 of them being their charges and the rest 250 mana that can potentially knock down 5 people with each one. .  So 10 casts of Volatile  and under threat of CC for 22.5s of CC from one frostguard.  Currently is 10/11s of straight KD until they ult then just keep adding on the seconds.   Compared to the other classes its usually a 20s delay before the next CC gets tossed out unless you start doubling up on classes.  One other possibility is to put a cooldown on the free weaving for Frostweavers & force them to use other spells on top of it.  I can see this solution  causing more problems though.

Frostarmor has its whole set of issues itself but that needs a change plus the Ice callers frost armory.  Talk about a worthless talent.



 

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3 hours ago, DivingOurLine said:

At this point of 5.115 we have established the meta and have a general consensus that Frostguards need to be nerfed. Lets discuss it and identify the parts of FG that need to be tuned/nerfed/fixed and help the devs understand our point of view as players concerning the class.

They understand whats wrong, they just don't have time to address it.

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first of all they should fix frostarmor x2 bug.

then they should fix free weaving last combo animation so there will be some delay (not instacast)

then it would be nice to decrease ice placement distance from 30 to 25m (to the frostguard only)

overall aoe dmg should be decreased by x2 to whole archetype (for now)

this we can test abit and make a new feedback.

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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12 hours ago, DivingOurLine said:

35% mitigations that is hard to take off is a really strong ability

Could we stop ignoring the fact that it gives 70% armor after the first crack? Such talks will result in a bug fix plus nerf again. Remember 5.7 toxin situation and where assassins now? We needed double effect toxic fix, instead got fix and Diffusion nerf.

 

Edited by ComradeAma
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first the delay for FG needs to be added when free weaving, if you notice in my video when volatile procs from shatter storm theres a nice delay . at least 1s

but when free weaving its pretty instant, on the other hand archmage volatile does go off quicker outside of free weaving, like focus proc or shatter proc from capstone. but when AM free weaves it goes off even faster than the procs, the animation doesnt even finish and it goes off. also stable ice turned into volatile is bugged and doesnt do the right damage, and it looks like its hitting twice, unless its the frigid dot goinh off i cant tell

turn the playback time down to like .75 or .50 and you can see the difference

then frost armor needs to be toned down a bit, i think thatll be a good start before touching the damage on it

 

 

Edited by yianni
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22 hours ago, Staff said:

i think fg and stormcaller are a little underpowered and are due for a buff

100% agree with this statement ;)

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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Add an immunity timer to the CC preventing a target from being knocked repeatedly from the same FG regardless of how fast/slow they are spamming.

Wouldn't mind seeing their range decreased somewhat as well, maybe not as much as confessor, but 5-10 decrease to base/cap or something. "Tank" out ranging most with base or cap seems odd considering the Damage/CC/Defense potential.

 


 

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While they are at changing Frost Armor, they should strongly consider getting rid of the mechanic it uses (dropped buff single use). It's the only one in the game like this, and it's absolutely awful to have to sit on every important zone through and watch everyone bumble around for it.

Like almost all other buffs in the game, make it group only and cast at group level. Maybe make it work like Toughness or other buffs, and have the cooldown be less than the up-time. Maybe like a Cleric Aura, a nice +to group armor that is interrupted if a hard CC hits at the wrong time.

It's a black sheep spell, and that is part of the reason it is imbalanced, IMO.

Edited by McTan
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12 minutes ago, McTan said:

While they are at changing Frost Armor, they should strongly consider getting rid of the mechanic it uses (dropped buff single use). It's the only one in the game like this, and it's absolutely awful to have to sit on every important zone through and watch everyone bumble around for it.

Like almost all other buffs in the game, make it group only and cast at group level. Maybe make it work like Toughness or other buffs, and have the cooldown be less than the up-time. Maybe like a Cleric Aura, a nice +to group armor that is interrupted if a hard CC hits at the wrong time.

It's a black sheep spell, and that is part of the reason it is imbalanced, IMO.

they need to make it perists through zoning, i dont think making it a buff is a good idea because itll make it easier to cast.

leaving it the way it is makes it harder because FGs need to be able to cast it midfight to refresh when it breaks. not many FGs do that including myself which is bad, need to keep on top of it

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6 minutes ago, yianni said:

they need to make it perists through zoning, i dont think making it a buff is a good idea because itll make it easier to cast.

leaving it the way it is makes it harder because FGs need to be able to cast it midfight to refresh when it breaks. not many FGs do that including myself which is bad, need to keep on top of it

The auras need to be refreshed, too. It cannot persist through zoning or everyone will just park a buffbot. The reason I despise single target, out-of-group long duration or infinite duration buffs is buffbots, and I think they should just tinker it however they need to make it make sense in the context of all other buffs. Single target, out-of-group buffs are also extremely overpowered by their nature, when all other buffs in the game are group-restricted.

How about instead of an armor buff they make frost armor a group barrier with decent cooldown, so it can be cast during combat at skillful times?

Edited by McTan
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2 minutes ago, McTan said:

The auras need to be refreshed, too. It cannot persist through zoning or everyone will just park a buffbot. The reason I despise single target long duration or infinite duration buffs is buffbots, and I think they should just tinker it however they need to make it make sense in the context of all other buffs.

How about instead of an armor buff they make frost armor a group barrier with decent cooldown, so it can be cast during combat at skillful times?

why would anyone use a FG as a buff bot though, thats 1 frost armor... what about when it breaks mid fight, buffbot wont be there

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7 minutes ago, yianni said:

why would anyone use a FG as a buff bot though, thats 1 frost armor... what about when it breaks mid fight, buffbot wont be there

If it is good and with a long or infinite timer, there will be buffbots, even if it is not refreshed mid-fight. Ask yourself if FGs sucked at everything else, but Frost Armor persisted through zone, if you would not want it cast on you before you go out.

I think we both know that you would, heh. Especially in a game that already caused a ton of people to have second accounts. Hell, I would have a second account Frostguard parked in the temple if I knew it would go through zoning, if only to piss off @ZYBAK

I have finished many PvP fights and still had my Frost Armor, let alone the fact that if I enter a 5v5 with Frost and the other group doesn't, we have a huge advantage.

Edited by McTan
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7 minutes ago, McTan said:

The auras need to be refreshed, too. It cannot persist through zoning or everyone will just park a buffbot. The reason I despise single target, out-of-group long duration or infinite duration buffs is buffbots, and I think they should just tinker it however they need to make it make sense in the context of all other buffs. Single target, out-of-group buffs are also extremely overpowered by their nature, when all other buffs in the game are group-restricted.

How about instead of an armor buff they make frost armor a group barrier with decent cooldown, so it can be cast during combat at skillful times?

How about instead of an armor buff they make frost armor a group frost thorns spell? There are a lot of cool options that do not rely on it being the only infinite duration, self-refreshing, single-target, out-of-group spell in the game. That's my hot take, at least! 

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