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Templar - Mobility and Divine Light


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Hey Yo,

Couple of suggestions myself n some Guildies thought would make great Templar changes. Some of these will alter the fundamental design of the class, but IMHO for the better. All of this is just my opinion!

Problem Statement:

The Templar currently has two main design issues. Lack of mobility, and the class anchoring on Divine Light (DL) circle.

Mobility issue broken down:

  • Everyone says "you get one leap!". True. Censure is 15s CD base (can be lowered with Wep. Finesse yes - but it's marginal). Long CD for the one mobility skill. 
  • You basically have to replace dodge with Righteous Stand (plus Righteous Parry is amazing!). The trade of for dodge would be fine, if you have more mobility skills (ie. Elken). But it's only Elken, some of us love our Nethari plate look :P 

Censure:

  • Allow Censure to be cast based on if you have pips
  • This would allow you to cast 5 times if you have 5 pips (or you could cap it at 'X' amount of pips)
  • This fixes the current mobility and kiting issues Templars face against anyone with range - they can just hold s and backpedal/Kite
  • Gives the ability to chase/close per above mobility point
  • Means there is no need for Greatsword mobility/lunge additions

For Vindi/Fury, so much of the damage is centered on DL & the Paladin DL is so much of your healing. DL is a put in place ground based skill leading to the meme of a Templar standing in their circle.

Divine Light:

  • Anchor the DL to the Templar instead of a ground placed skill
  • Lower the area of effect as it now moves with the templar
  • May need damage tweaked (lessened)
  • Allows damage to travel with templar
  • Lowers Fury KD range but per above lets dmg/heal travel with

 

I know ACE aren't looking to balance things right now with the push to beta, but I feel this is a needed design revisit for the class.

Thoughts, suggestions. critiques?

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2 hours ago, Warbladez said:

The Templar currently has two main design issues. Lack of mobility, and the class anchoring on Divine Light (DL) circle.

Are they still issues if they were done on purpose? Like, these were not facets of the class overlooked during the design phase, they were implemented so that the class would be good in a specific way and not good in at least one specific way.

I wish you luck in convincing Blair this was a mistake. 😄

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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The Templar Class has a really strong impact in bigger fights, especially if its stationary. 
Its the niche of the class and i am pretty sure it is supposed to be like that.

Anchoring the DL to the player instead of leaving it ground target would just add another braindead spamable mechanic to the game. 
Now, to get the most out of the class, your group needs to play around it and yes, it can be avoided by the enemy. 
But this just adds a little more tactical decisions to the fights imo and groups with good coordination can benefit from it.
Thats good for the game imo.

Adding a bit more mobility to the templar might be a good idea though. 

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52 minutes ago, Atreus said:

Adding a bit more mobility to the templar might be a good idea though. 

I get that it's meant to be niche, but it also detracts from some of the ability to play the class as the fights scale down. 

Adding the mobility might also do away with the idea of anchoring DL to the templar, as it allows the templar to position the DL circle - that's why I chose the order of suggestions to be first around mobility. I'd suggest they try altering that then if not working can always look at the second option (or other better ideas).

 

2 hours ago, moneda said:

Are they still issues if they were done on purpose? Like, these were not facets of the class overlooked during the design phase, they were implemented so that the class would be good in a specific way and not good in at least one specific way.

I wish you luck in convincing Blair this was a mistake. 😄

Design vs working implementation are different in any situation. I understand the design, I'm just suggesting that it's slightly missed the mark. When I asked the current playerbase across a variety of guilds "what do you think about Templar?" one of the first points that always came up was if facing ranged you're hard countered (hard counters in a game like this are not a good thing imo), and secondly that they are tied to their circle.

Second point is understandable, but loses usefulness and impact exponentially when you're also hampered for mobility - it's also why we got a few chuckles at one of the Public Fight Nights DIS hosted when I was blocking standing in a circle half a map from everyone else - to paraphrase "lol that's literally the Templar meme.

That's indicative that something isn't quite working - my suggestions may also be off the mark, but at least need to keep the dialogue alive for ACE to know that the class isn't quite hitting the mark, and is why a lot of people try it but don't stick to it.

Thanks for the comments though, also raised some good points about the class identity - which also shouldn't be lost.

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Maybe if they got a lunging weapon there mobility would be fix :P

I wouldnt mind seeing a way for Templars to drag there divine light with them to a new position on one of there skills on like a 20-30 sec CD or something so you can reposition a little more easily while DL on CD.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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17 hours ago, veeshan said:

Maybe if they got a lunging weapon there mobility would be fix :P

I wouldnt mind seeing a way for Templars to drag there divine light with them to a new position on one of there skills on like a 20-30 sec CD or something so you can reposition a little more easily while DL on CD.

a drag skill or even another ult thats just a movable slightly stronger divine light would be nice

hoayaga2.jpg

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On 8/10/2020 at 2:58 PM, Staff said:

a drag skill or even another ult thats just a movable slightly stronger divine light would be nice

Even a drag skill would be nice - but imo Templars really need the mobility addition to make use of tactical placement of DL this would allow. And i'd prefer that be built into the class mechanics rather than a "must have" pigeon-holed crafted weapon.

Potentially, Censure resets DL CD if a successful hit is landed on Censure? It's limiting but would be better than present while also not making either unbalanced.

If we couple that with Censure getting more casts based on pips, that'd be awesome. Actually, if we couple then, make the second cast cost 2 pips, and the 3rd cast cost 3pips?? Might work, gives mobility, allows tactical placement of the core skill DL, and you'll be using parry to build the pips.

Thoughts?

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Templar is King when it comes to holding a point - with AoE DPS, AoE healing and AoE Knockdown (In the basic Kit) - The trade off is lack of mobility. Needs to be played on it's strengths and not to be buffed.

Edited by Prometeu

Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.ro

 

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I'd be okay with making one spec centered around a weaker version of divin light that can reposition on a cooldown.

The changes you're suggesting, however, would annihilate the core identity of the class.

Templars, the entire design and point of the class is "I completely own this stationary area, and I do it better than everyone else"

The more mobile you make them, the more you necessarily have to nerf that identity, and without that identity they're just bad champions.

Yes they're weak as fights scale down, just as assassins are bad as fights scale up. That's fine. That's why you have more than once character slot. Not every character will be or should be good at every situation. Some characters are solid middle of the road, and some are excellent at certain fights while being useless at others. That's how proper pvp template design works. You are sometimes rock, and you're sometimes scissors, and sometimes its a paper vs paper fight.

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 8/9/2020 at 12:17 AM, Warbladez said:

Hey Yo,

Couple of suggestions myself n some Guildies thought would make great Templar changes. Some of these will alter the fundamental design of the class, but IMHO for the better. All of this is just my opinion!

Problem Statement:

The Templar currently has two main design issues. Lack of mobility, and the class anchoring on Divine Light (DL) circle.

Mobility issue broken down:

  • Everyone says "you get one leap!". True. Censure is 15s CD base (can be lowered with Wep. Finesse yes - but it's marginal). Long CD for the one mobility skill. 
  • You basically have to replace dodge with Righteous Stand (plus Righteous Parry is amazing!). The trade of for dodge would be fine, if you have more mobility skills (ie. Elken). But it's only Elken, some of us love our Nethari plate look :P 

Censure:

  • Allow Censure to be cast based on if you have pips
  • This would allow you to cast 5 times if you have 5 pips (or you could cap it at 'X' amount of pips)
  • This fixes the current mobility and kiting issues Templars face against anyone with range - they can just hold s and backpedal/Kite
  • Gives the ability to chase/close per above mobility point
  • Means there is no need for Greatsword mobility/lunge additions

For Vindi/Fury, so much of the damage is centered on DL & the Paladin DL is so much of your healing. DL is a put in place ground based skill leading to the meme of a Templar standing in their circle.

Divine Light:

  • Anchor the DL to the Templar instead of a ground placed skill
  • Lower the area of effect as it now moves with the templar
  • May need damage tweaked (lessened)
  • Allows damage to travel with templar
  • Lowers Fury KD range but per above lets dmg/heal travel with

 

I know ACE aren't looking to balance things right now with the push to beta, but I feel this is a needed design revisit for the class.

Thoughts, suggestions. critiques?

Just to give you a heads up the Vindi & Fury  aren't centered around DL for their damage. Its an enhancement but on vindi you'll put our more DPS through your melee skills and the divine light will be adding to it.    The one that needs tweaking is the fury itself the only good thing is the Divine Light. Doesnt do damage, doesnt CC correctly doesn't really do much of anything other than soak damage if someone is dumb enough to focus this spec in large fights.  If the root was multi target then it might be worth something with the divine light.

Nothing is stopping you for filling in the mobility gaps on the class & switching censure to be pip based would be a terrible idea.  It's one of the quickest ways to recover a pip to lead into more pips.   With the way dodges work now you're not really missing out on the mobility these days.

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I agree that Templars could use a little more mobility but the leap with no cooldown and costing one pip is too much. 

I don't think anyone minded the fact that Templars could switch to harvesting stance and dodge in previous builds (but that was an old mechanic and did come with the risk of being knocked down by damage)

Templars lack of mobility is kind of intentional but we will see if ACE gives it better mobility the way they gave knights a weapon based leap (you can craft 1h Longswords that make you lunge but costs dodge pips, meaning Knight can block and leap)

In General Tenplars are great for farming mobs, great at defending choke points, ok in large scale field fights and terrible at small scale fights.

Also if you want a little more mobility consider playing an Elken Templar as they get a racial movement power.

12Oe7ot.png

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It would be good to have another heal to spend my pips on as a paladin. Once I've placed a DL and used my holy warrior I am pretty much useless. Devotion is kind of a joke - a maximum of 200 heal per sec based on my damage dealt. There are some major disciplines with healing, but so far they seem to either have really high cost (5 pips? for the fountain of life with long cd) or be really underwhelming (rehabilitation- pitiful heal once ever 2 secs).

The ulti also seems to take ages to charge compared to other classes I have played and is pretty underwhelming. Would be nice if this applied a big heal as well or a big barrier.

There is still a lot to learn though so I can't be too critical. All I can say is that I often have lots of pips in the bank with no way to use them as heals, and that as others have said its very hard to get people to stand in your DL. Conversely it is also easy to get pip-starved, especially in any ranged encounter.

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2 minutes ago, yasha said:

It would be good to have another heal to spend my pips on as a paladin. Once I've placed a DL and used my holy warrior I am pretty much useless. Devotion is kind of a joke - a maximum of 200 heal per sec based on my damage dealt. There are some major disciplines with healing, but so far they seem to either have really high cost (5 pips? for the fountain of life with long cd) or be really underwhelming (rehabilitation- pitiful heal once ever 2 secs).

The ulti also seems to take ages to charge compared to other classes I have played and is pretty underwhelming. Would be nice if this applied a big heal as well or a big barrier.

There is still a lot to learn though so I can't be too critical. All I can say is that I often have lots of pips in the bank with no way to use them as heals, and that as others have said its very hard to get people to stand in your DL. Conversely it is also easy to get pip-starved, especially in any ranged encounter.

One of the biggest issues is that Divine Lights artwork has gotten worse and worse since the start of the dregs.  Before we used to have an outline to show the max radius of the skill & now its some more pulsing light that gets lost in all the graphical vomit on screen.  This makes it extremely difficult now for your teammates to find you & get heals.  Devotion is fine the way it is the 200 max is its base it can achieve. Critical healing & healing modifier can take this skill higher its also our only skill that I believe can heal someone that is 50m away.  Think this is one of the few skills that can heal at 1s intervals.

Yes Fountain of life on the Paladin has always been out of wack.  The Naiad major isnt worth taking for that reason alone. The pip cost issue appeared with the dregs itself.  Most the skills used to be 1 pip no matter what and fountain used to be 3/4 now i believe 4/5 this is with weapon finesse and a 10 weight weapon.  Basically Templars are paying a premium on a lot of the healing skills that the mana classes have no issues with.  Hoping when the "balancing" phase comes the devs will actually look into this.   I haven't used Rehab in ages but I believe it doesnt scale off of support power and goes by stam. So its good on classes for a cross heal that dont have SP.  Yes our ulti is pretty underwhelming

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