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OK well you asked me to provide specific examples of things they promised that they have fulfilled. I did that. Not really sure what you expected. Sure there are some rule sets that are similar to other games/styles but I have never played or seen a mmo that implemented timed campaigns with a pool of rule sets that are implemented in different combinations within different seasons. Not only is that unique in itself but also allows campaigns to feel and play out uniquely. This was and still is the number one reason I sign up and backed this game. It will allow the game play to evolve and I look forward to it.

Sure Eternal kingdoms have always been glorified player housing but the potential is there for some interesting mechanics. Still it's a core feature they promised and have mostly delivered on while still in beta.

It seems like you just want a completely %100 pvp sandbox game like Darkfall. Which is cool I loved that game. But Crowfall has never claimed to be that. Besides Darkfall and games like Darkfall have always been very niche and fall off pretty quickly once a guild or alliance reigns supreme. You're acting like giving players a tutorial and a way to gear up is completely "Carebear" and that it somehow makes this game "pvp-light". There is a big difference between hand holding through the entire experience and teaching players the core/class mechanics at the beginning so they can enjoy the game.

As far as the discipline system, its pretty unique as well. Its a customization system that is cross class, on top of an already customizable class system, limited slot choice system and a passively training skill system. That's pretty crazy. There is a high degree of customization there. I absolutely love that. I've never seen a system like that in another mmo. Have you? Seems pretty innovative to me. They have stated numerous times that their intent is to keep a "meta" to a minimum and allow for a wide variety of builds to be viable. They have also stated numerous times that they know there is still a lot of balancing to be done and that it will be a constant battle for balance. Speaking of things they have said repeatedly, ACE is aware that the crafting system is not where it should be and that there will be changes. Again, still in beta.

Look, you're obviously are not happy (as you've stated) with this game or where it is heading and I am. It seems like most are. I am excited for the future of this game and I am glad to have backed it. I've been happy with the developers and don't feel gypped. I look forward to some "Carebear" pvp in it's full release.

 

 

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We tried the "players build everything even your starting gear" for years and it was a terrible experience for new players, and a terrible experience for server economies and low end PvP. We trie

Having a new player experience is important in such complex games. Being upset over that makes zero sense.

I am trying to accept the game they are developing, but this is not even in the same ballpark as the game I supported on Kickstarter. So are you happy? I am not.  Quest bugs for quests that

3 hours ago, mivius said:

I do not blindly accept the "small" changes, as they have made the game divergent from what was offered, and your excuses are terrible.

Sometimes I think recent(last 2 years) changes have been made to facilitate future cash shop plans. Then again sometimes I think they needed to add more pve systems for their artisan engine project. The rest of the time I think a large investor/donor started influencing direction about 2 years ago.

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4 hours ago, yieldblue said:

OK well you asked me to provide specific examples of things they promised that they have fulfilled. I did that. Not really sure what you expected. Sure there are some rule sets that are similar to other games/styles but I have never played or seen a mmo that implemented timed campaigns with a pool of rule sets that are implemented in different combinations within different seasons. Not only is that unique in itself but also allows campaigns to feel and play out uniquely. This was and still is the number one reason I sign up and backed this game. It will allow the game play to evolve and I look forward to it.

Sure Eternal kingdoms have always been glorified player housing but the potential is there for some interesting mechanics. Still it's a core feature they promised and have mostly delivered on while still in beta.

It seems like you just want a completely %100 pvp sandbox game like Darkfall. Which is cool I loved that game. But Crowfall has never claimed to be that. Besides Darkfall and games like Darkfall have always been very niche and fall off pretty quickly once a guild or alliance reigns supreme. You're acting like giving players a tutorial and a way to gear up is completely "Carebear" and that it somehow makes this game "pvp-light". There is a big difference between hand holding through the entire experience and teaching players the core/class mechanics at the beginning so they can enjoy the game.

As far as the discipline system, its pretty unique as well. Its a customization system that is cross class, on top of an already customizable class system, limited slot choice system and a passively training skill system. That's pretty crazy. There is a high degree of customization there. I absolutely love that. I've never seen a system like that in another mmo. Have you? Seems pretty innovative to me. They have stated numerous times that their intent is to keep a "meta" to a minimum and allow for a wide variety of builds to be viable. They have also stated numerous times that they know there is still a lot of balancing to be done and that it will be a constant battle for balance. Speaking of things they have said repeatedly, ACE is aware that the crafting system is not where it should be and that there will be changes. Again, still in beta.

Look, you're obviously are not happy (as you've stated) with this game or where it is heading and I am. It seems like most are. I am excited for the future of this game and I am glad to have backed it. I've been happy with the developers and don't feel gypped. I look forward to some "Carebear" pvp in it's full release.

 

 

@yieldblue I owe you an apology, you absolutely mentioned the one constant, unique feature - the dying worlds mechanic, and I skipped over it, albeit not my intent, it was my failing, I was wrong, you were correct, I am Sorry.

Really, what I wanted is what we were told, everything was player gathered, player made, and player fought over/protected.  Yes, everything was supposed to be transient, you were not supposed to get attached to the pixels.

I can literally go breast-for-tat on points with you, we disagree on things, I'm okay with rational conversation, I often use strong language.  Disciplines?  Not that an amazing an idea, I mean, go back to materia from FF7, or , or , or (fill in other examples yourselves, from your own experiences)... you see?  A slightly different way to make you feel like you can 'customize' your toon isn't even note-worthy in my eyes. Few ideas are truly new, the dying worlds was one, perhaps the main reason I do stick around. 

You mention 'they' state X Y Z about keeping the meta "whatever", but again, they've said a lot of things over the years, and I can illustrate many of them are not true, and the reality is, the "FoTM/MEta" is alive and well, and I am rather dubious at this point they can break those proverbial chains.

I have bluntly stated I am displeased with the direction things have progressed.  I even started by saying I am trying to accept the game they developed, leaving unsaid versus the game they said they were going to make.  Many are very happy with the concessions.  I am not.  Everything player made was "too hard"?  That's all the excuses I read amount to, from literally everyone.  I, mistakenly, thought that WAS supposed to be this game, STEEP learning curve, things were NOT supposed to be equal, or fair, or taught to you via some insipid NPC quest... that literally the time could have been spent on more productive development...I'll again apply brakes there.

 

 

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I hear ya bro. I guess I just look at it all through a more optimistic lens. The systems in place are definitely not where I'd like them to be but I see the potential. I am excited to see how it all comes together. I've no hard feelings and enjoy a good back and forth every now and then. Have a good one.

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2 hours ago, mivius said:

Really, what I wanted is what we were told, everything was player gathered, player made, and player fought over/protected.  Yes, everything was supposed to be transient, you were not supposed to get attached to the pixels.

I, mistakenly, thought that WAS supposed to be this game, STEEP learning curve, things were NOT supposed to be equal, or fair, or taught to you via some insipid NPC quest... that literally the time could have been spent on more productive development...I'll again apply brakes there.

They said a lot of things, many of which might have been conceptual, wishful thinking, or actually planned design choices once upon a time. 

Along the way many things have changed for whatever reasoning.

I'm tool lazy to go re-read and watch the Kickstarter stuff, but I don't remember "we guarantee there will be 100% no loot drops, no gold, insert cherry picked thing you want or your money back." Random comments in interviews, marketing, or videos that were likely made in the "we want your money" stage might not be the best source of "promises." The FAQ was outdated for years with stuff like that, probably a thing or two in it still. Definately don't remember them claiming the game would have a "STEEP" extra caps learning curve.

Kickstarter details were pretty vague big picture with some things like Voxels being thrown in the trashbin years ago.

You can harvest, craft, pvp, siege, go to different worlds, EK sort of work, there's passive training, faction system, guilds can win a campaign, and character building is okay. To me that sort of sums up the game. If "no gold" is what defines what they were selling, to each their own. I'm still waiting for EKs to matter, a fealty/bend the knee system, advantages & disadvantages, conquest mechanics, more interesting/complex character building options, and so on.

To answer your question, I'm kind of happy. I've been very critical of many of the design choices, but it's not my product or business at stake. If I'm not happy I can walk away minus a few bucks and some wasted time. All the items I listed still have a good ways to go IMO, but I doubt they'll get there prior to launch if ever. 

They've made a playable game, not just a fancy tech engine, that has a good ways to go but it isn't terrible. Some missing things are still "to come" and pretty much everything is still being improved visibly. Last night Blair mentioned in a streamers chat that there were Discipline changes coming which I hope is a strong pass and not just one or two changed.

At this point harping on things that clearly aren't going to change is pointless. Doesn't matter what the reason is for anything in the current version, simply is what it is. Highly doubt making the things you wish had happened would of resulted in a better quality or more popular product at this point.  

I've backed other projects in the works and I might not play any of them a week after they launch. Adapt or move on to a happier place.

Nostaliga marketing does its thing:

"WHERE DID WE GO WRONG? There was a time when our industry took CHANCES. Our games didn’t have to appeal to everyone, and we didn’t judge ourselves solely on mass market success. With amusement park games, it’s impossible to lose. With sandbox games, it’s impossible to win. If you can’t win and you can’t lose, then WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING? I don’t want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.
I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH."
Edited by APE

 


 

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I definitely preferred the "drop you into the world, now figure it out approach" they originally had. Would prefer they put something into the game allowing you to skip the NPE and just jump right into the action for those of us who aren't simple-minded. If it was going to be a necessity, I think it would have been better to at least finish the NPE prior to pushing it out to the public. The pointless grinding on mobs from 15 to 30, regardless of how little time it takes, kind of turns me off to the game. It just feels as if it's for nothing when I'd much rather be gathering/crafting/fighting for my life in a PvP environment. ACE still has plenty of other things to do before they can provide a proper launch but it'd be cool if they could look into fine-tuning the NPE to make it feel like it's actually worth the effort. Or, preferably, remove it entirely and throw us back to the wolves.

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15 hours ago, APE said:

I'm tool lazy to go re-read and watch the Kickstarter stuff, but I don't remember "we guarantee there will be 100% no loot drops, no gold, insert cherry picked thing you want or your money back.

"WHERE DID WE GO WRONG? There was a time when our industry took CHANCES. Our games didn’t have to appeal to everyone, and we didn’t judge ourselves solely on mass market success. With amusement park games, it’s impossible to lose. With sandbox games, it’s impossible to win. If you can’t win and you can’t lose, then WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING? I don’t want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.
I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH."

There was never any guarantee, but it was expressly stated that the design was to have no loot drops and everything would be player created. One of the issues with crafting is that drops are better at times then crafted and at times even npc bought items. I feel that crowfall had a better feel circa 5.7 before they added loot drops, npc vendors, EK timeouts, grind for the sake of grind, and now... a quest to kill more rats. 

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12 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

There was never any guarantee, but it was expressly stated that the design was to have no loot drops and everything would be player created. One of the issues with crafting is that drops are better at times then crafted and at times even npc bought items. I feel that crowfall had a better feel circa 5.7 before they added loot drops, npc vendors, EK timeouts, grind for the sake of grind, and now... a quest to kill more rats. 

I understand and have my own list of issues/concerns, but they did what they believed was best for the future of the game.

Having a starter tutorial should not even be a hot discussion topic. If questing expands into the actual campaigns that would be something else, but I don't see that happening.

100% player driven economy sounds great but how many examples exist? Especially a game remotely like this one? A few months into the game I doubt it will be worth talking about. A year in an experienced guild isn't going to be rocking vendor gear. They can always adjust the stats/quality of drops and what crafting produces.

I look at how unpopular the game is with all the QOL make it easier systems in place and see no way making it more inaccessible would make the game more successful. Those that want a hardcore experience (video games are hardcore 😄) can skip the NPE, grind to whatever level a Dregs takes and fend for themselves naked and a lone. Skip passive training, don't wear gear, just run up and punch anyone they see.

Edited by APE

 


 

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14 minutes ago, APE said:

I understand and have my own list of issues/concerns, but they did what they believed was best for the future of the game.

I look at how unpopular the game is with all the QOL make it easier systems in place and see no way making it more inaccessible would make the game more successful.

I counter the game is unpopular because of all those changes. 

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12 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I counter the game is unpopular because of all those changes. 

Neither of us have any facts to back up our views so is what it is.

If someone chooses not to play the game because a fairly quick how-to quest line exists, oh well. I simply can't imagine that such a thing would do more harm then good.

They are going to continue improving and building out the systems in place, not remove or totally rework them. Everything in game fits the current model, just needs a lot more polish before launch or for it to be relatively successful.

Getting hung up on what they promised 5 years ago, be it in stone or a vague comment by a single dev seems pointless.

Doubt we are going to get individual apology letters about how they didn't live up to our unrealistic expectations.

For those that haven't been around for 5 years or whatever, bit silly to pop in and expect the exact product they imagined to actually have been created. I know MMO crowdfunding is relatively new, but people shouldn't be naive or shocked about how the process works.

 


 

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I like what they're doing.  It's got promise.

A lot of things that become big problems as games age and player levels increase seem to be fairly well thought out.  Anti Zerg mechanics in particular.

Can't wait to get to level 30, find a guild that can show me the ropes, and dive into a campaign.

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19 hours ago, APE said:

Nostaliga marketing does its thing:

"WHERE DID WE GO WRONG? There was a time when our industry took CHANCES. Our games didn’t have to appeal to everyone, and we didn’t judge ourselves solely on mass market success. With amusement park games, it’s impossible to lose. With sandbox games, it’s impossible to win. If you can’t win and you can’t lose, then WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING? I don’t want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.
I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH."

First, in every response in all the years here, you have always been thoughtful and rational in every response to every post I've seen, and I appreciate that, even if I have not used those words.

The quote you used hits the nail on the head. And yet I have that hollow feeling growing in my gut...

2 hours ago, APE said:

For those that haven't been around for 5 years or whatever, bit silly to pop in and expect the exact product they imagined to actually have been created. I know MMO crowdfunding is relatively new, but people shouldn't be naive or shocked about how the process works.

I'm not shocked, but things like gold and loot drops could have been addressed in other ways, within the framework they have already developed.  I think a telling example is that chaos embers seemed to be the de-facto currency, not gold, but gold was useful, but just another grind.  The logical process they were trying to follow escapes me, especially in light of, and I know I use the word promise, how about, strongly suggested, that this would be all player driven?

 

Yes, gathering is unlikely to be this big driver of pvp as hoped, but will anything else?  I posted against scheduled siege times, because it's going to lead to the same thing as every other pvp mmo.  Variables they introduce may influence a win or win conditions, but that can't negate a superior force by size or strategy in the long run...and most people like to be on the winning side...

I, in contrast, have never backed another idea.  I have been disappointed by promise after promise of a pvp game where pvp was the focus, not an overlay on top of a pve system, which often leads to, well, I assume you've played a couple too, so..

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Neither of us have any facts to back up our views so is what it is.

I was just going by what you said. The only real facts we have is playing user base. 

 

3 hours ago, APE said:

I look at how unpopular the game is with all the QOL make it easier systems in place

Even with the past changes to design people still don't like the game. That would indicate to me that those changes drove away players during development. I guess its possible this mmo breaks the paradigm and less players the closer to release is better.

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On 8/12/2020 at 6:00 PM, mivius said:

I agree, you did answer! And I appreciate that. But I also felt you were trying to convince me based on your experience, as if I had not played during those times, and I have, and I felt your blurbs were inaccurate and based on conjecture, and I explained why I felt that way.

We can agree to disagree.

 

Which you didn't answer. 

You stated you "didn't know" about things I am certain about, and you made excuses for their changes, when those excuses hold no water (ie: they do not need intermediate pve gear drops, the issue COULD be addressed fully through player crafting) because it is counter to the ideas and ideals they stated the game would be based upon. IE they lied.

Okay?  I've had halfwits like you try to make excuses for dev's and tell me why my experiences and opinions aren't correct, yet act like hurt little babies when I counter and I'm not bowing to your flawed logic, and likewise point out why your arguments are generally wrong (like people countering facts with opinions), straw man arguments, etc, to which I generally get the sort of responses as above...no productive counterpoints (except Pope), just "You bad, go away" style logic, because, again, all most of you have is an opinion which is not in line with the facts... but people can't converse, again, see above...any resistance is met with open hostility, as you displayed...

I've been out pvping all night long the last 2 days. I leveled a new class to 30 within an hour just to go pvp. What now? Did the gold and vendors ruin my game experience? Nope. Because that stuff will be useless once people are able to craft. This game is Shadowbane 2.0, it's closing in on being exactly what I am looking for in an MMO, they just need to add MORE PvE flashpoints to fight over with specific rewards at each given area (unique loot/runes/rare crafting mats/etc). I have no doubt this will make its way into the game as it was a main point of conflict in Shadowbane and they are borrowing heavily from that game for gameplay/pvp incentive.

 

But again, you just want to argue and act like you're mr. internet smart guy who is better and smarter than the rest of the dum dums in here. I don't expect anything anyone says to answer your "question". So, congrats, time wasted on my end again, I guess? 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, evilized said:

ut again, you just want to argue and act like you're mr. internet smart guy who is better and smarter than the rest of the dum dums in here. I don't expect anything anyone says to answer your "question". So, congrats, time wasted on my end again, I guess? 🤷‍♂️

I do?  I think I'm fairly consistent in arguing when people are argumentative or antagonistic in some way, generally rather than just giving their view.  I don't think or feel like I'm ' mr. internet smart guy', I just have an exceptionally low opinion of your mental capabilities, no one else's thus far in the thread, just yours, mostly because it seems like you don't actually read anything, you just vomit stuff forth, though, you quote things, so maybe you read, but don't comprehend, either way...

 

2 hours ago, evilized said:

 This game is Shadowbane 2.0, it's closing in on being exactly what I am looking for in an MMO, they just need to add MORE PvE flashpoints to fight over with specific rewards at each given area (unique loot/runes/rare crafting mats/etc). I have no doubt this will make its way into the game as it was a main point of conflict in Shadowbane and they are borrowing heavily from that game for gameplay/pvp incentive.

Yes, I see this is your opinion.  It's also what people such as myself were looking not to happen, Shadowbane no longer exists...probably for a reason...I never played it...also probably for a reason...The term 'spiritual successor' was thrown around a lot, which was fine, but if it's going to be Shadowbane 2, then it should be called as such.

But more importantly, the ideas you express about pve were exactly what backers like myself were looking to get away from, it's how they lured us in, they said they learned, they hads experience, they had ideas....but yup.. Shadowbane 2, and it makes me sadder and sadder each slip towards that end

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15 hours ago, mivius said:

I'm not shocked, but things like gold and loot drops could have been addressed in other ways, within the framework they have already developed.  I think a telling example is that chaos embers seemed to be the de-facto currency, not gold, but gold was useful, but just another grind.  The logical process they were trying to follow escapes me, especially in light of, and I know I use the word promise, how about, strongly suggested, that this would be all player driven?

They could of done it numerous ways but my guess is going the traditional route just made is easier to develop systems with a basic currency in play. Players can always dictate what has the most value to them and engage in bartering and in person trades.

Loot drops were always going to be a thing. They talked about Thralls and Discipline Runes be things we would have to fight over. Similar to Shadowbane afaik. I see no issue with having very valuable non-gear drops from mobs for crafting and whatever use.

Gear dropping hopefully fills the need of new/casual players while crafted is for the more competitive. We need both types. Expecting new players to wear rags or depend on overly generous guilds seems unrealistic.

As long as dropped gear is kept subpar to crafted, no biggie to me. Other issue is speed in which players can craft decent items which they are working on. This magnifies the drop vs craft gear divide currently.

Quote

Yes, gathering is unlikely to be this big driver of pvp as hoped, but will anything else?  I posted against scheduled siege times, because it's going to lead to the same thing as every other pvp mmo.  Variables they introduce may influence a win or win conditions, but that can't negate a superior force by size or strategy in the long run...and most people like to be on the winning side...

Things like PVE King's, Captains, Discipline Thralls, Relics, Caravans, outposts etc are definitely PVP drivers and are working as such. Fighting over mob spawns and resources exists and will only increase as the population does. Working with 50-200 players in a world meant for 1-2k makes the experience wonky.

Smaller forces and or less PVP strong have won campaigns thanks to the Divine Favor system. Numbers will play a huge part but aren't the only factor.

With enough POI to fight over I don't see a major issue with scheduled sieges. They remove the mess of ninja capping but I wouldn't mind a handshake system either.

Quote

I, in contrast, have never backed another idea.  I have been disappointed by promise after promise of a pvp game where pvp was the focus, not an overlay on top of a pve system, which often leads to, well, I assume you've played a couple too, so..

I play PVP games for my fix of PVP. FPS, hero shooters, RTS, CCG, chess, etc.

MMOs are not PVP games IMO. They are PVPVE. I don't know of one that doesn't require some degree of PVE and grinding. They have different degrees of PVP, but usually much more. They didn't sell this as a 100% PVP games. Non combat conflict and strategy have always been core design elements.

Edited by APE

 


 

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15 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I was just going by what you said. The only real facts we have is playing user base. 

 

Even with the past changes to design people still don't like the game. That would indicate to me that those changes drove away players during development. I guess its possible this mmo breaks the paradigm and less players the closer to release is better.

I've seen way more complaints about performance, unfinished XYZ, wipes and so on leading to retention issues then adding QOL and making it more accessible. Just my POV though.

Despite some that have played this like it was a game, it has been a shadow of what I expect must want for something they sink into.

I post a lot and hop in to screw around, but I'm not going to spend hours n hours in a unfinished product that my actions have little value in.

Population hasn't massively grown or shrunk over the years. Been pretty small and steady the whole time with changes happening around updates and slow periods.

Edited by APE

 


 

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The game looks nothing like the screeenshots.  Thank god I didn't support them on kickstarter. I would be livid if I had paid hundreds of dollars thinking I was getting all these beautiful and amazing buildings and then ending up with whats in game.

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