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ensencam

Throw RNG down the drain.

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And why would I want to play a game where everything is decided by who has the higher twitch reflex or the lowest ping? "Oh look I'm 20 with fast reflexes and a ping of 12 ms and I so pwned that 40 year old that has ping of 55 ms, I'm so l33t!"

 

That is all FPS style is based on ping and reflexs, no skill.

 

Where in my post did I say FPS? Please do not put words in my mouth. 


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Why would you want block ratios, and dodge chances, instead of actually hitting your opponent by aiming, or dodging attacks by actually... moving? Tab target combat is just based on numbers, and gear, not skill.

 

Again, why do you want critical strikes? They aren't skill based, or based on how good you are, they are just random.

 

As for RNG in gear, I don't know about that, but keep tab target and RNG out of combat, it has no place in a skill based game.

 

You just listed everything that I dislike in most themepark games. 

 

You mean like in Darkfall where I didn't even block in beta, just ran in circles flanking my opponent, and making sure I kept the momentum up whilst I spammed attack till he died? The amusing thing was that most of the time opponents didn't land a single strike at me, why? Because of the netcode, the latency issues and "you have to aim your attacks". Perhaps the most pitiful combat I've ever played in MMO.

 

I want procs (and crits) because I want the option for someone to build actual character around them, whether one is a viable choice or a mediocre toon at best is irrelevant. I want as many character build possibilities as one can possibly have. Half of you enjoy a medieval sword fight simulation, half of us enjoy a proper old school RPG feeling. Now I'd be fine to settle some RNG things, like your minimum and maximum damage transformed to just your average damage (standard number). And how is it "unskilled" if a character a player built lands a critical strike you at the very end? The character has been built, and player behind the character may have let's say equipped a ring knowing his critical chance increases to 10% with the item, hoping it will assist him in getting at least one critical strike during a single encounter? 

 

Role-playing games aren't twitch based combat scenarios. Where have people gotten that image from? They are about building your character, creating your own playstyle for that character, and executing that playstyle in a way it maximizes the efficiency of your character. Stating that this does not take skill is completely absurd. Go play a round of MOBA's, they are exactly your tab-target environment where apparently everything is just "random." Take that you use your ultimate nuke on a character that evades it on a chance based skill, now was that opponent lucky with the evasion or did you just make an error launching your ultimate at a character who even has a chance of evading it? Two-sides to the coin, my friend.

 

Edit: In case you want non-RNG combat without aiming your attacks or playing a first person sworder, that's even more horrible. Elder Scrolls Online proved that. You could figure out the best possible character just from paper during that time (which was shield-bash-o-matic 5000 with vampire) and what happened, those who realized it went and won 1v50 in PvP, that was fun while it lasted.

Edited by nehemia

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You mean like in Darkfall where I didn't even block in beta, just ran in circles flanking my opponent, and making sure I kept the momentum up whilst I spammed attack till he died? The amusing thing was that most of the time opponents didn't land a single strike at me, why? Because of the netcode, the latency issues and "you have to aim your attacks". Perhaps the most pitiful combat I've ever played in MMO.

 

I want procs (and crits) because I want the option for someone to build actual character around them, whether one is a viable choice or a mediocre toon at best is irrelevant. I want as many character build possibilities as one can possibly have. Half of you enjoy a medieval sword fight simulation, half of us enjoy a proper old school RPG feeling. Now I'd be fine to settle some RNG things, like your minimum and maximum damage transformed to just your average damage (standard number). And how is it "unskilled" if a character a player built lands a critical strike you at the very end? The character has been built, and player behind the character may have let's say equipped a ring knowing his critical chance increases to 10% with the item, hoping it will assist him in getting at least one critical strike during a single encounter? 

 

Role-playing games aren't twitch based combat scenarios. Where have people gotten that image from? They are about building your character, creating your own playstyle for that character, and executing that playstyle in a way it maximizes the efficiency of your character. Stating that this does not take skill is completely absurd. Go play a round of MOBA's, they are exactly your tab-target environment where apparently everything is just "random." Take that you use your ultimate nuke on a character that evades it on a chance based skill, now was that opponent lucky with the evasion or did you just make an error launching your ultimate at a character who even has a chance of evading it? Two-sides to the coin, my friend.

 

Edit: In case you want non-RNG combat without aiming your attacks or playing a first person sworder, that's even more horrible. Elder Scrolls Online proved that. You could figure out the best possibly character just from paper during that time (which was shield-bash-o-matic 5000 with vampire) and what happened, those who realized it went and won 1v50 in PvP, that was fun while it lasted.

 

1.) You have either played against the worst players in either Darkfall I have ever heard of, or your story is just that, a story, a myth, and nothing more.

 

2.) You keep saying role-playing games are this and that, but have forgotten that genres can evolve, and the market shifts. Don't be so narrow minded, and realize that themepark games are stale, overdone, and most of them are just a re-skin of each other.

 

3.) I have many, many hours in LoL, DotA 2, and SMITE, and yes, MOBAs are tab target, sometimes. Their are tons of skill-shots, and the genre is vastly different. If you have to use another genre to support your argument about what an RPG is, you're doing a bad job of defining an RPG lol.

 

Anyways, I already know FPS games, and games like Mount and Blade take more skill to play than tab-target. There's no point in me even discussing the matter any longer with you.

 

Hopefully this game isn't tab target, for my sake, but if it is, I hope you can at least enjoy the game.


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1.) You have either played against the worst players in either Darkfall I have ever heard of, or your story is just that, a story, a myth, and nothing more.

 

2.) You keep saying role-playing games are this and that, but have forgotten that genres can evolve, and the market shifts. Don't be so narrow minded, and realize that themepark games are stale, overdone, and most of them are just a re-skin of each other.

 

3.) I have many, many hours in LoL, DotA 2, and SMITE, and yes, MOBAs are tab target, sometimes. Their are tons of skill-shots, and the genre is vastly different. If you have to use another genre to support your argument about what an RPG is, you're doing a bad job of defining an RPG lol.

 

Anyways, I already know FPS games, and games like Mount and Blade take more skill to play than tab-target. There's no point in me even discussing the matter any longer with you.

 

Hopefully this game isn't tab target, for my sake, but if it is, I hope you can at least enjoy the game.

 

1: I only played during the first weeks of DF beta, I had enough of the game within the first week, but there were notable names and naturally no one was excellent during that time. But even that most basic form of combat showed me few flaws in the system I just couldn't get over with, to me that kind of combat shouldn't be even possible on the ground level. That's my opinion.

 

2:  Naturally the genre can and will evolve, but how does that prevent me from supporting my viewpoints what a MMORPG should be about, or am I disallowed possessing my opinion that RPG games should be: " They are about building your character, creating your own playstyle for that character, and executing that playstyle in a way it maximizes the efficiency of your character".? Does this make me narrowminded in a sense that I don't want MMORPGs to be twitch based melee versions of FPS games? In addition, RNG =/= themepark.. RNG isn't something that only exists in themepark games. 

 

3: I just used MOBA's as an example of how strategically difficult tab-target / point-to-click environments can be, and how much skill they can require. Shadowbane took a good deal of skill as well. Then again, so did many others.

 

4: Sure, FPS games require plenty of skill, no question about that. It's just matter of how a player defines skill. Is it reflexes and muscle memory alone, where individual performance is the ultimate factor.Or does a player consider skill-based to include strategic approaches, mindgames, tactics, adaptation to situations etc. Those are all important aspects of player skill in my mind. When it comes to FPS games, I love Unreal Tournament, but the last thing I want from a MMORPG is to resemble Unreal Tournament.

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I actually agree with removing RNG. It can easily be removed from multiple aspects of the game without removing RPG elements from the game.

 

Drops especially should not be RNG. I find it very unattractive to invest 1.5 to 2 hours of my time, not knowing if I will have progressed at all at the end of the day. I much prefer games where items are a composition of rare materials dropped by objectives.

 

In PvP, RNG is even worst. Getting crit 4 times in a row for a near instant death isn't fun. Fights should be won by skills, not luck of the RNG gods.

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An MMORPG with no RNG would drive away more than it would gain IMO. As said above a huge part of these games is the progression and character building. Take that away and you just have another twitch FPS clone. They already have those games on the market, should look into playing them instead of wanting to make every other new game just like them.

Edited by pang

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I'm anti twitch. But you want some RNG. This allows bad players to feel like they have a chance longer increasing the player base.

 

Keeping a larger player base is good for everyone who enjoys the game. If that means I get crit'ed out every once in a while I'm willing to pay that price.

Edited by thewatchman

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That sounds perfect to me because it means that the players are in control.

You aim an arrow and you miss because your aim was off and not because it displays "miss", "dodge" or "block" above the character

You don't lose a fight because the opponent "crits" you on the last moment.

You dodge an arrow by stepping aside and you block an arrow by raising your shield in the right direction.

RNG in combat is terrible and that's something that have been in at least 90%+ of all the MMORPG's for many years from what I've seen.

 

For the loot you can still have different loot tables with slight differences for all I care.

I just don't want to farm the same mob for 100 times to just to find the right epic item.

your opting for key control combat , instead of build / strategy play this is a failed idea. 

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1: I only played during the first weeks of DF beta, I had enough of the game within the first week, but there were notable names and naturally no one was excellent during that time. But even that most basic form of combat showed me few flaws in the system I just couldn't get over with, to me that kind of combat shouldn't be even possible on the ground level. That's my opinion.

 

2:  Naturally the genre can and will evolve, but how does that prevent me from supporting my viewpoints what a MMORPG should be about, or am I disallowed possessing my opinion that RPG games should be: " They are about building your character, creating your own playstyle for that character, and executing that playstyle in a way it maximizes the efficiency of your character".? Does this make me narrowminded in a sense that I don't want MMORPGs to be twitch based melee versions of FPS games? In addition, RNG =/= themepark.. RNG isn't something that only exists in themepark games. 

 

3: I just used MOBA's as an example of how strategically difficult tab-target / point-to-click environments can be, and how much skill they can require. Shadowbane took a good deal of skill as well. Then again, so did many others.

 

4: Sure, FPS games require plenty of skill, no question about that. It's just matter of how a player defines skill. Is it reflexes and muscle memory alone, where individual performance is the ultimate factor.Or does a player consider skill-based to include strategic approaches, mindgames, tactics, adaptation to situations etc. Those are all important aspects of player skill in my mind. When it comes to FPS games, I love Unreal Tournament, but the last thing I want from a MMORPG is to resemble Unreal Tournament.

 

1) As I thought, you made an assumption on a beta, and at a time where the game was still being learned. You say that type of combat shouldn't be possible, but then give no explanation, or reasoning for this.

 

2) Again you say I have said things I have not said, and continue to try and put words in my mouth. I never said you can't use other genres to help your viewpoints, I simply stated that comparing a MOBA to an RPG is silly, in terms of mechanics. The mechanics are vastly different, and one has a persistent world with many players per game, and one does not. One game has the potential for perma death, looting during PvP, and the other has no penalties for dying, or even losing, or rewards for winning, as it is a lobby-based game, and it resets. I'm not sure if you really like trying to put words in my mouth, or if you simply misread what I said, but you are making a habit of it.

 

3) Sure, every form of combat takes a certain amount of skill, and their will always be players who are better than others, in every combat style, I am just stating that tab-target skills, and combat require less than other forms of aimed combat, and blocking/dodging. As for RNG in combat, I won't even say anything more about it than I need to. Simply put, it doesn't add any depth of skill required to play, and only players who need to rely on luck, and not skill would want it.

 

4) FPS combat,  Mount and Blade-like combat are not mutually exclusive, and  "strategic mindgames, and other tactics" are apparent in these types of combat systems. This is an incredibly silly perception of non-tab target combat styles. Every combat style can be strategic, and everyone can play mindgames. In FPS combat, you can juke players, and dodge them, with Mount and Blade combat, you can feint attacks, and make your opponent go in for a swing, and then hit them first, etc. You really don't see how these traits could be applied to other forms of combat? I just gave you a few quick examples.


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Though I disagree with completely removing the RNG I don't disagree that the odds of the RNG working in your favor should increase. Take for example farming something (if you've played WoW you know the RNG is TERRIBLE) could go on for Days and still no drop. However if it was designed so that the more frequently you killed something the better the Drops got, than it wouldn't be so bad.

This is where skills in combat come in, because lets face it, unless you've seen an arrow shot, or know how the wind plays on it, and time everything perfectly, if someone shoots an arrow, you're likely to be hit by said arrow. It's like telling a farmer to a Knight. If the knight is serious about the fight, and the farmer has no prior experience, yeah he might block sometimes, but chances are, he's Dead.

Now take said farmer, and have him train with a sword for say.. 1 month (Fictionally) his skills get better, thus improving his odds of Parrying an attack, Granted the Knight is still a better swordsman, so odds are He'll still lose, but he has a better chance than before.

I believe having a progress RNG would still allow Skill to be Factored in, while not crippling the odds of a person winning. If a knight of one caliber took on another knight of the same caliber, I'd say the odds were 50/50 as opposed to the Knight v Farmer, where its more like 99/1 The more you customize your stats, the better you are at things, After you've taken the time to train them.

Removing the RNG from things Causes Action combat like in Tera, which is fast paced and fun, but even that has from RNG in it.

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RNG please.

 

without it you focus too much on the basic lame aspects of pvp.  Im more concerned with having intricate power combination systems and focusing on using abilities and strategies, u know....instead of just trying to aim and click better than the other guy.  If i wanted to be a clickmaster id go back t Elder Scrolls or Jedi knight Jedi Academy.

Edited by tenshijin

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"Oh this game has crits, WHY? Crits are RNG! RNG is BAD! I want a skill based game, not an RNG based game!"

 

Consider a combat in a magical game with no RNG at all. Attacks always hit, always do the same damage.

 

Your opponent hits you for 6 damage. You have 20 hp.

 

You hit him for 7 damage, you know he also has 20 hp.

 

You fight to the death, and since you are such a skilled player you win after 3 rounds!

 

 

Enter, the power of RNG!

 

Your opponent hits you for 6 damage still, and you still have 20 hp.

 

You hit your opponent for 7 damage still, and he also has 20 hp.

 

First round he hits you for 6, you have 14 hp, you hit him for 7, he has 13 hp.

 

Second round, he hits you for 6 damage, you have 8 hp, and you miss him! Damn RNG!

 

Third round, he crits you for 12 damage. Damn stupid RNG! Now you lost a fight which by all rights you should have won, because you are a skilled player.  You were just robbed of your kill by the evil RNG, which removes all skill from the game and lets stupid newbs win fights easily. This is probably the worst MMO ever!

 

If only there was a way to turn the RNG in your favor.  Like, if there was a way to retreat when a battle is going poorly, to flee away, heal, and return to fight again. Or if there were abilities you could use to mitigate the effects RNG, to heal up from a nasty crit, or to hit your enemy more effectively and avoid misses. But hey, you are a skilled player! A skilled player like you shouldn't have to actually think and use strategy, you should just be able to go and kill people, without RNG getting in the way.

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Why didn't you post this on the RNG topic?


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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You could have also searched Random Number Generator.

 

The thread is in the Suggestions Box.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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No, there was a separate thread regarding the RNG.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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The problem is that pvp emphasis should mean skill matters, but at the same time it's a video game meant to generate money which means you have to make it easy enough for casuals to feel like they are doing something skillful... 

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