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Impactfulness


Skadii
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This game has a lot of potential but I fear it will be overshadowed by superior mechanics around territory control and scale of battles promised by Ashes of Creation if the combat does not improve. If this is a pvp focused game, I need to feel IMPACTFUL.

I preface this with love and humility by stating that the work that has been done on the game and continuous updates has been much appreciated by your community and the creative spin on MMO's is what we are all looking to design and create together.

Let's start with the combat:

Animation:

     Desperately needs to be improved. I started with a ranger and got a false impression of how far along the combat animations where because it actually feels decent, maybe a 6/10 which is fine for a beta. As soon as I made a melee character I saw how far behind everything was. When melee, If I strike an npc or player, I feel nothing, as though I'm swinging at air. The time and sounds are in different time zones and almost just feel like a damage over time spell. If I am a giant Minotaur and I have a two handed axe I should feel that impact and sound on every hit, and the sound should correlate to how much damage I am dealing. If this is an action combat game I should never hold down on the left mouse when attacking, feels like I'm casting a spell rather than attacking. Everything feels off, when I cast a spell sometimes the animations are still going even thought the spell is finished and my character can perform another action. My favorite animation in the game is actually when chopping wood on a tree and my character spins sometimes. Its the only melee attack that feels impact and unfortunately its on a tree. When I swing my sword with my Templar it feels like I'm trying to kill the air and the damage with my regular attack feels worthless just getting power to use my abilities. Might as well just take out regular attacks almost and we should all be casters that cast DoTs on each other just at close range. If melee combat felt more like 3rd person Mordhau, this game would blow up. I know that this is more of an rpg but remember when Minsc would get a critical hit in Baulder's gate and the enemies would explode if they died? Game is like 15 years old and not even action combat and feels more impact full. This is an action combat game that feels more like mouse point and click at the moment, infact if these issues cannot be fixed I would prefer that because just your UI is even confused whether we need a mouse pointer or not. When you are auto running with numlock you cannot even look at your skills or inventory. Its so sad because lots of time is spent running sometimes, and being able to manage my inventory or changing or reading up on my skills would be huge before a big fight. If my sword actually clashed with the enemy's or my left click swings did more damage and the animations matched well with my impact it would feel amazing. I want my attacks to feel like they physically connect with my opponent!

Another side note, when using charge spells where my character runs into an enemy please add some collision or something. The actual charge effect doesn't apply until after the animation of the character charging is finished. Feels terrible, 0 impact. If I'm a bull and im charging a puny gunea pig, that thing should fly. Which leads me to the next point.

Large Scale Combat:

    I feel like I am just part of an angry mob! Obviously there are server issues being fixed so I'm skipping over that but this is where I feel the least bit impactful. When I use single target spells, I feel like I am doing nothing. I cannot single anyone out in group combat and really focus them down, and if they are getting healed, the animations and character gear do not give me any information on where the heals are coming from? Are they coming from the enemy I'm attacking? Are they coming from an AOE heal? I have NO IDEA how this enemy is getting HP from!!! So then maybe I focus another target, but then I made the mistake that the heals were actually coming from an enemy's skill that their skill animation did not give me any information from.

As a ranger I feel like I'm just shooting arrows into a riot. It feels like skill goes out the window, maybe we don't know what we are doing and the 10 FPS we were all getting doesn't help, but without visual cues and animation, I have no clue what is going on.

WE ARE ANIMALS!!! I love this and I love the racial traits and I think large scale combat strategy should really revolve around that. Guild leaders should feel like the opening scene of gladiator of him riding horse yelling commands to his troupes on discord like:

" They are running towards us! Hold!.... Hold!..... Hold!... Minataur Charge! together in line like Spartans! Now hidden guinea pigs reveal yourselves attack the back line! Secondary charge now with the rams since the tankier Minotaur are holding the front line, now the smaller humans and elves finish em off while they are incapacitated with the charge of our Minataurs!"

The racial abilities are fantastic, maybe as gamers we have not really figured out your vision or the game is too young but If I am a giant cow I should feel that way in battle. I think you have succeeded with the guinea pig race (love their run animation by the way, so f'ing cut they are so chubby and their waddle is so perfect. That's the animation  I'm looking for with everything. I should feel like what my character is and what he is doing).

What I want to be able to do is single people out more, I know it sounds counter intuitive for group fights but If you picture yourself in a medieval battle no matter what your are, an archer, a battle axe wielding giant, a templar... large scale battles are the result of pre-battle strategizing by experienced generals and the actions and vigor of individual combatants in the fight. Right now I am feeling neither to the extent they should be.

Small Scale Combat:

     Feels the best so far because I can see my impact the most, however, I think there are some balance issues especially with the gun slinging guinea pigs. If I'm going to fight over resources, I might as well pick that class. Especially with the gear imbalances this is such a bad issue at least to myself. Besides those issues of balance though, I feel like everyone has a little bit too much HP. People are not being burned down as they should be. People should be able to 1 v X for sure, but i feel like this is determined too much by class and too little by skill, this is an action combat based system after all... or is it? Kappa

 

My Solutions:

 If I were on game design I would do the following to resolve the issues I have brought up:

1. Make basic attacks feel great and give more weight in battle. I really think basic attacks like swinging a sword or drawing the bow should not simply be resource generators or intermittent actions before using skills. they should do more damage. If you feel like they should have as much weight as spells, then at least make them feel good. I'm swinging at air here, its for breathing not killing.

2. Make the racial trait charges feel like I'm charging into battle. Collision may be a good solution. We need to utilize that for large scale pvp. I want to see bodies flying as my Minotaur allies are charging into battle with graceful animation of course.

3. I don't want to feel like part of an angry mob. I want to be an individual with an impact that I can see through animation and damage. Sometimes it feels like I'm attacking a brick wall. Let the games visuals to tell me what I'm doing wrong so I can improve.

4. Make it so parties of 5 are not like small raid groups. I want to see the a group of archers with their own sub-general leader that can ping when to fire. I want to healers to still be able to purge those archers because animations are telling them that they are being affected storm callers. If Crowfall is going to have large scale battles, let the players have more freedom on how they segregate themselves. I want to see my  group of Minotaur being in charge of themsleves and not tied to raid group that has to stick by their cleric in the group so they can get purged. Make us think more like what we are.

5. If this game's melee combat felt a little more like 3rd person mordhau that would be huge! Gear seems to have to much weight at the moment. I should feel like im directing my blade maybe even a simple system like for Honor of left right middle strike. Make this feel more like an action combat game. If not then lets all use a mouse pointer please.

I fear that Ashes of Creation's systems, if they come to fruition, will be a superior territory based MMO rpg. Where I think it lacks is combat. If the combat feels amazing in this game, it will succeed. I love the fact that the game just puts you into a world that is small enough to digest and conquer, and the system of life and death of servers. Nothing lives forever and there is death and rebirth but if it doesn't feel good then its tough to play. People need to clearly see what is happening, large scale and small. Give us that insight.

Edited by Skadii
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In regards of shooting arrows into a mob i wonder if they can make it so attacks prioritise (specificly ranged attacks) the target closest to the recticle is instead of the closest target to you so you can actually aim past targets without making thing super pin point accurate (Which is bad for players with ping) however if it hit check targets near the recticle first thats within range i think there a good compramise.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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30 minutes ago, Ble said:

Try being a healer.  It's by far the worst experience of healer game play I've ever experienced by a laaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggeeeeeeeeee margin.

 

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I love graphs! Would you mind linking your spreadsheet so we can see the raw data you used to make this. Very nice.

Edit: I do think the OP makes some good points.  

Edited by Arawulf
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1 hour ago, Ble said:

Try being a healer.  It's by far the worst experience of healer game play I've ever experienced by a laaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggeeeeeeeeee margin.

 

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Centaur pasive race buff +75 support powe/attack power. Bard Major rune +75 support power with song active "Verses of Victory" And that is a race tip + rune tip without any additional talent points in SPR you get +150 points better support power. I`ve a notion in full group combat with better group heals like in Shadowbane with % heals - you can easy outheal most dps hence why some dps classes increase in dps like the Archmage Frostweaver & Druid dps version so ACE are probably aware of it. 

 

They balance class powers in large scale combat which is the best way to do it in my view when guilds are in full groups with support heal powers. 

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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You might have great ideas but you are asking for a complete rewrite of the combat system. Would recommend concentrating feedback on smaller improvements. This kind of feedback only had a chance 3 years ago.

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On 8/19/2020 at 10:14 AM, Pendan said:

You might have great ideas but you are asking for a complete rewrite of the combat system. Would recommend concentrating feedback on smaller improvements. This kind of feedback only had a chance 3 years ago.

Well I'm sorry but this is my feedback, I didn't join the bandwagon 3 years ago. This combat system needs an overhaul that big in my opinion. I feel like I'm fighting gear, or numbers that's it. You can tell from streamers as well that they are feeling the same. We feel powerless. Even if they reduced and capped the numbers when fighting for keeps to be equal, there is still elements such as gear (which was acquired through having greater numbers most likely) that will have far greater impact than skill in battle but the battles would be much more fun if the numbers where more even at least. This game will never be more than casual if more skill is not involved, I might as well join the guild with the greatest number of people and just be in a mob and fight. That's all this game feels like it is, that and a running simulator to get to my shrine after losing to larger guild. I had a feeling this game would be more tailored to skill rather than numbers or gear. That's what a Pvp game is after all right? Sorry If I am miss using this forum but I think feedback is what this forum was about

Edited by Skadii
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Skadii I am not trying to push down or belittle you feedback. I am just offering advice as to what is likely to be listened too. The game has very fundamental problems. Any suggestions that hurt performance client or server side will not get addressed. No matter how great a collision system would be for the game it just can't happen without a miracle.

You also might be surprised how little gear has to do with the winner of battles. 100 more armor or 5 more strength on armor is meaningless. Gear progression though is a fundamental aspect of the game and asking for it to be removed is asking for a new game and to start over.

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1 hour ago, Pendan said:

Any suggestions that hurt performance client or server side will not get addressed. 

Aye, this is true. Just watched a stream in which Jtodd said pets are going to be held back from launch and the main reason is it would effect performance. On a positive note, The first crowfall expansion/update will most likely have Combat Pets! (I am not really excited about pets at all, but many folks love them)

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