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Suggestion: Limitation factor on stealth duration.


Kobra
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I'd like to propose a limitation factor on stealth.

Not a complete nerf, but perhaps tie it to stamina or something, so it's not in perpetuity.  It is highly possible that once this game launches, without a limitation factor on stealth, it could become 'Stealthfall' or something. Especially in the early days/weeks/months after launch as I assume people will gravitate toward invisibility.

I actually think Warhammer Online/Return of Reckoning did the stealth limitations accurately. This was the result of Marc Jacob's feeling that perma-stealth in DAOC was too game breaking, and he vowed his next game wouldn't have it. 

Or possibly spread out stealth reveal skills among more racials/discplines, etc.

Also, mole hunter is good, but taking a major disc to deal with one race seems a big off. That would be like having to slot 'Stormcaller Stopper' to deal with the SC spam right now. I'm not sure there is an easy answer to that one. Maybe a third 'utility' discipline slot where people can slot a utility based discipline? 

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50 minutes ago, Kobra said:

That would be like having to slot 'Stormcaller Stopper' to deal with the SC spam right now.

You do need to do that. Purgative from Field Surgeon.

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There is a limitation factor on stealth. Its called the warden promotion, every elken, molehunter, and to a lesser degree every ranger that takes flare arrow from the talent tree.

Maybe you want to join the party and pick up a bit of stealth for yourself? That's assassins, duelists, and brigands (permanent class stealth with mechanics built around its limitations and strengths) every guinecian (mobile stamina consuming stealth), every wood elf, and any template that has access to illusionist (Stationary stamina consuming stealth)

Stealth counters do not exist to counter "just one race"

They exist to counter a system that is widely avaliable in various power strengths to a wide amount of characters, including your own. Stealth is a tool avaliable in various flavors, just as damage and healing are.

If you're really bent out of shape, employ a Warden WITH molehunter and you have a permanent hard counter that can not only permanently run perception, but permanently grant perception to four other people.

Like every other template in the game, stealth templates have natural counters, and many existing options across many different race and class combos to counter them.

You don't get to automatically counter two entire classes, an entire race, and one third of the promotions of another class just by existing any more than you get to counter DoTs by existing, or damage by existing, or bleeds by existing, or fire damage by existing. Your combination of race, class, and disciplines is going to determine what you're naturally stron against and what you're naturally weak against, and the combination of skills and abilities help by yourself and your allies will also determine your overall readiness to meet whatever variety of threats exists.

You design proper counterplay for the specific thing you want to counter. You don't design a mechanic to counter itself. Crowfall has active counterplay to stealth, gives both stealth and anti-stealth options to a *massive* number of builds, and gives a huge advantage to most stealth counters by making them group buffers in comparison to all stealth being only personal effects.

There is nothing wrong with stealth. You are reacting to FOTM slayer duelists, not the stealth system.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Yeah, I got a anti-Stealth Warden talent build that I use when solo (them damn rats) or when my party lacks any anti-stealth. I'd rather not and I think my other party build is better but if I need it I got it covered.

That is to me the real beauty of the Vessel system. I can with minimal effort load a different build to fit the situation. Different talents, different discs. Heck, different class or race even.

If you dont have at least a few characters to different situations you are doing it wrong.

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Who would be helped by this change? Solo players who are worried about getting ganked? You would also be hurting solo players who use stealth to avoid getting ganked.

I think it's fine as it is. This is a group PvP game and stealth isn't as useful in large fights.

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The focus shouldn't be on counters, counter re-works (which I hear are coming), and a dedicated, slot consuming discipline being virtually necessary at times.

The focus should be on placing limitations of a very powerful skill.

Limitations exist for every powerful skill/system in the game for a reason, it balances those powerful skills with a hardcap limitation on what they can do. Everything from Frostweavers to Myrmidon's have limitation factors. 

As of right now, there isn't one for stealth. So ACE wouldn't need to play whack-a-mole with how to address stealth imbalances if they simply put a limitation factor on it, and then moved along. Even rats should have that limitation factor involved with their burrow. They've got to come up for air sometime, right?


Tie it to stamina, tie it to something, but tie it to a limitation like everything else in the game. Otherwise this game is going to become 'Stealthfall' at launch, and it will get messy. I'll save this prediction right here, so I can draw it back up when the forums fill with new player rage.

Edited by Kobra
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13 minutes ago, Kobra said:

The focus shouldn't be on counters, counter re-works (which I hear are coming), and a dedicated, slot consuming discipline being virtually necessary at times.

The focus should be on placing limitations of a very powerful skill.

Limitations exist for every powerful skill/system in the game for a reason, it balances those powerful skills with a hardcap limitation on what they can do. Everything from Frostweavers to Myrmidon's have limitation factors. 

As of right now, there isn't one for stealth. So ACE wouldn't need to play whack-a-mole with how to address stealth imbalances if they simply put a limitation factor on it, and then moved along. Even rats should have that limitation factor involved with their burrow. They've got to come up for air sometime, right?


Tie it to stamina, tie it to something, but tie it to a limitation like everything else in the game. Otherwise this game is going to become 'Stealthfall' at launch, and it will get messy. I'll save this prediction right here, so I can draw it back up when the forums fill with new player rage.


Explain to me what is so powerful about stealth. You can't fight while stealthed. Or harvest. Or run pigs. Or capture things. Or recall. What does it DO compared to every other ability, buff, or skill that is such an insurmountable advantage that you feel it needs a nerf?

 

What does not being able to see an opponent (unless you have one friend that is built to see an infinite number of stealthers) actually do that you find such a hugely overpowered advantage?

Why doesn't this logic apply to autoattacks, which some templates can do for free and other must spend resources on?

Why doesn't this logic apply to ranged vs. melee?

Why is stealth, specifically, overpowered in your opinion?

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Because everything has limits, everything has to have limits.

Even mount speed/runspeed has limits. Using your logic, why not just uncap mount speed because you can't fight, run pigs, harvest, recall or capture things while on a mount, right? So why not make them uncapped?

Anything without limitations in any game is a bad idea. Stealth included.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Kobra said:

Because everything has limits, everything has to have limits.

Even mount speed/runspeed has limits. Using your logic, why not just uncap mount speed because you can't fight, run pigs, harvest, recall or capture things while on a mount, right? So why not make them uncapped?

Anything without limitations in any game is a bad idea. Stealth included.

 

 

Stealth already has limits. You can't fight, you move more slowly, and you require specific templates to use it. You lose it if you take damage, it can be forcibly turned off be a number of enemy actions.

How is stealth more "unlimited" than mounts literally every character can use with no tradeoffs or build decisions, in your opinion?

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 9/5/2020 at 12:23 AM, PopeUrban said:

There is a limitation factor on stealth. Its called the warden promotion, every elken, molehunter, and to a lesser degree every ranger that takes flare arrow from the talent tree.

Its a shame warden are in a bad spot right now, flare not too great atm either with stealthers can see it aswell from my understanding. Cant realy get enough perception either to counter baseline stealth levels would be nice to see more ways to acquire perception.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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9 hours ago, veeshan said:

Its a shame warden are in a bad spot right now, flare not too great atm either with stealthers can see it aswell from my understanding. Cant realy get enough perception either to counter baseline stealth levels would be nice to see more ways to acquire perception.

I'm curious when you say "can't get enough perception" what your issue with the current perception level is. In my experience it pays off extremely well if you invest in it, the same way stealth does, and it kinda sucks if you just take a little, the same way stealth does. Just hitting perception isn't an auto-win and requires some searching, and stealthers can still evade detection with creative use of LoS even within perception range. This seems balanced to me, as both sides of the equation require thought and movement to effectively win this contest of hide and seek, and the difficulty level of their actions are influenced by player skills as well as character stats.

If you build for it you can percieve most stealthers at around 50m out, well before they can hit you. This is around twice the range of anything I'd consider a "gank" skill. Of course if you don't build for it, or if the stealther runs lower stealth scores this will fluctuate closer or further based on the difference between their stealth or your perception. These numbers are just race, class, talents, and discs alone, without additional points from gear or vessels. Its also generally far easier to sweep for stealthers than it is to evade a sweep due to both ranger and molehunter perception buffs being group based.

Flare is meant to be seen. Its a tool to zone out stealthers, or punish stealthers after you've located them with perception. It has a 100% uptime as well, allowing you to completely remove an area from stealth access for as long as you want, or if you combine it with molehunter flare, two areas. Invisible flare would be a bit too slanted in favor of antistealth given the large aoe and permanent uptime, difficulty of spotting the perception buff (you have to mouse over the target and look for the icon, or see the skill cast) and unknowable range of perception. You can tell when enemies are using perception, but you can't tell how far away they can see you from since there's no indicator of the relative size of your stealth and their perception bubbles. Adding invisible insta-unstealth aoes on that would make stealth counters too unpredictable when combined with how perception works. Stealthers already have to work extremely hard to effectively engage or remain hidden near anyone running effective antistealth templates. Not to mention molehunter being usable by anyone meaning that any enemy you see could potentially pop perception at any time without the stealther having any way of knowing. I've been popped and mobbed down by my share of groups with no rangers or elks in them by a surprise perception cast.

If stealth counters were any more aggressive than they already are, stealth would be effectively useless against any group with a single elk or molehunter, changing it from a system of pvp counterplay to a system where pushing a button wins the hide and seek game without any seek having taken place. As is it seems like a fair game of hide and seek with considerable uncertainty and tension on both sides.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Sounds like we just want to make stealth a timed buff and not permanent, only due to the fact folks can run around unseen and engage on their terms. That is essentially what stealth classes or builds to stealth are. It has limits, counters and requires you to have counter measures in place. If not, yeah, you might just get ambushed by a group of slayers. Stealth in of itself is fine. Classes and their kits on the other hand are either ok, lackluster or down right superb. That looks to change soon. 

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On 9/5/2020 at 10:20 PM, veeshan said:

Its a shame warden are in a bad spot right now, flare not too great atm either with stealthers can see it aswell from my understanding. Cant realy get enough perception either to counter baseline stealth levels would be nice to see more ways to acquire perception.

Agreed here.

But I think decision makers at ACE hear this loud and clear. Also I believe they realize having to slot a major to deal with them isn't an effective use of a major slot.

Another thing Warhammer RoR does is your perception of stealthers is linked to your initiative stat, and some characters have higher initiative and can sniff out stealthers. That, in combination with the limitation on duration of stealth due to the stamina drain, makes it quite balanced. A good stealther can still gank you (plan on it), but they aren't running rampant in gangs of unseeable tyrants. In WAR ROR, good stealthers know to be careful and use LOS and Terrain, and have to evaluate when to pop their stealth on/off to move in for a gank. They can't run around with impunity.

Hopefully ACE adds such mechanics as they also make stealth toons more fun and rewarding to play as a side bonus.

 

Edited by Kobra
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On 9/5/2020 at 2:21 AM, PopeUrban said:

Explain to me what is so powerful about stealth. You can't fight while stealthed. Or harvest. Or run pigs. Or capture things. Or recall. What does it DO compared to every other ability, buff, or skill that is such an insurmountable advantage that you feel it needs a nerf?

There wouldn´t be an AMD Ryzen 3950x powered hamster on every hill if stealth wasn´t park & forget. I don´t care so much about chars that are played as stealth classes. I care more about map control with a click every 10 minutes.

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3 hours ago, DoomYa said:

There wouldn´t be an AMD Ryzen 3950x powered hamster on every hill if stealth wasn´t park & forget. I don´t care so much about chars that are played as stealth classes. I care more about map control with a click every 10 minutes.

The PTSD you people experience from getting ganked a couple times blows my mind.

There are no massive networks of AFK scout hamster players multiboxing 47 monitors to cover a whole zone lol.

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 9/8/2020 at 10:43 AM, PopeUrban said:

The PTSD you people experience from getting ganked a couple times blows my mind.

There are no massive networks of AFK scout hamster players multiboxing 47 monitors to cover a whole zone lol.

This made me laugh so hard i almost broke stealth

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For the basis of this thread: nah, let's not do that.

Relatedly though, I wonder how long after release we'll have to wait for the tracking system we were told would be implemented oh so long ago. 🤔

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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8 hours ago, moneda said:

For the basis of this thread: nah, let's not do that.

Relatedly though, I wonder how long after release we'll have to wait for the tracking system we were told would be implemented oh so long ago. 🤔

It was removed from the skill trees entirely, so they may have just decided to scrap it within the context of the map sizes and other changes the game has gone through during development the same way fog of war and map making were scrapped.

There was a concept early on of exploration and discovery being key skills that fed off of the random map generation, but the game morphed over time toward free intel in stead, icons on the map to show you where locations are and what is in them, easy mouse over info, timers, vuln windows, even a channel to tell you when someone is killing guards or a pig or king spawns all the way across the zone, etc.

They decided that scouting maps and ownership flips was boring and mundane and standing in circles or being led around by text channels and waiting for someone to come fight you is fun. I disagreed with those decisions, but that's the game that was built. The game is now designed to mostly remove the need to scout, and stealth and its counters are designed around the concept that fights come to you based on all of that free intel, not that you go looking for them.

Intel gathering as a bespoke gameplay system seems to be a cut concept, and as such I can't see a situation in which tracking fits in to the game as it exists today. It both isn't necessary, and wouldn't be valuable enough if we had it to justify character investment at the expense of more combat related character building resources. A game which drowns the players in free intel doesn't really have a place for dedicated intel gathering systems like tracking. ACE decided pulling players in to fights was more important than requiring players to gather intelligence. Scouting, as much as it is required, is now easily accomplished by any stealther with the event channel tab pulled up using their own eyeballs and perhaps a mole hunter disc. There is no point looking for groups to fight when the game is designed around systems that summon them to come and fight you, and no point for an early warning system when the world is so small and view distance so much longer than combat range.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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31 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

and wouldn't be valuable enough if we had it to justify character investment at the expense of more combat related character building resources.

When every gatherer is either a Duelist or an Assassin I imagine there could be plenty of loot piñatas to track.

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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