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PvP Tip: Skipping Global Cooldown aka Animation Canceling


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On 9/7/2020 at 5:22 AM, ZYBAK said:

Hah I was wondering how long it was going to be when people figure this out. 

It's worth noting that some abilities will not fire off if you pre-maturely animation cancel so be sure you actually look in the combat log to make sure it's doing damage. 

The next question is - how long did you know, and did you report this? (I'm doubting you did)

I reported the Slayer/Duelist one a week or two ago after someone was complaining about you abusing it in General Chat. I spent the time gathering the logs from duplicating it and sending it to ACE.

There are others of course.. Like the Mino Racial canceling the Zerk Burn. Templar Cancels on DL. Etc.

Also the new one where the Slayer Ultimate can be interrupted at he proper time to allow the slayer to pop from it permanently invisible and kill people. That one has been recorded and submitted as well since one particular slayer last night was kind enough to keep repeating it while ACE was informed by me in real-time.

 

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I don't mind animation cancelling for the most part.  On myrm it's common to use neck slash to cancel the very long berserk/frenzy/vengeance animation. That's minor in the scheme of things.

Normally if you animation cancel something, the thing you cancelled stops. In Crowfall though, the original skill keeps going even after it's canceled. It's clearly indicative of a flaw in the co

Some charged attacks are coded to rarely hit their target, even if you're on target.  IM LOOKING AT YOU SPIRIT BEAR!

1 hour ago, Kobra said:

The next question is - how long did you know, and did you report this?

 

Slayers haven't gotten any changes in a long time (maybe close to 2 years?)

I've been playing Duelist since 2016 long before it got as popular as it is now. I've made YouTube videos displaying all the advanced Duelist techniques amassing hundreds of thousands of views.

It's not something I've been keeping a secret. Almost all the classes have some kind of "advanced tech" that lets you squeeze out a little more juice.

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2 minutes ago, ZYBAK said:

Slayers haven't gotten any changes in a long time (maybe close to 2 years?)

I've been playing Duelist since 2016 long before it got as popular as it is now. I've made YouTube videos displaying all the advanced Duelist techniques amassing hundreds of thousands of views.

It's not something I've been keeping a secret. Almost all the classes have some kind of "advanced tech" that lets you squeeze out a little more juice.

That's nice, but it doesn't answer the question.

Again: Did you submit a bug report about it, since you've logged hundreds, even thousands of hours on Duelist utilizing this 'technique'?

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Wait im confused. Is animation canceling an exploit? Most games have some sort of animation cancelling. Like melee you have wave dashing/L cancelling. CS:GO you have q switching after reloading or shooting with some weapons. How is this game breaking? It's doable by all players and classes.

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1 minute ago, Kobra said:

Did you submit a bug report about it

Yes. A long time ago along with many other weird quirks.

Another example of a weird quirk is how you can aim the start of the "Consonant Chains" power at a player but then turn your camera the opposite way and the power will still hit that target.

It's hard to know if that's intended because some powers have that exact same functionality while others don't. Different animation cancels have different timings and practice of animation cancelling is pretty common in games.

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3 minutes ago, Communist_Puppy said:

Wait im confused. Is animation canceling an exploit? Most games have some sort of animation cancelling. Like melee you have wave dashing/L cancelling. CS:GO you have q switching after reloading or shooting with some weapons. How is this game breaking? It's doable by all players and classes.

In my opinion, it's an exploit if you are dealing damage with abilities that have not fully animated to the point where they look like they should hit an opponent.

Eg. Cancelling rapid fire and getting extra hits - yes. That is an exploit.

Likewise, for non-damaging skills, there should be a point during each animation where they are 'complete' (or maybe some need to fully animate in order to gain their effects). If you cancel before this point, you should get nothing. If you cancel afterward, you save some milliseconds.

That's what animation cancelling should be anyway..

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2 minutes ago, Communist_Puppy said:

Wait im confused. Is animation canceling an exploit? Most games have some sort of animation cancelling. Like melee you have wave dashing/L cancelling. CS:GO you have q switching after reloading or shooting with some weapons. How is this game breaking? It's doable by all players and classes.

Sure it's 'doable' by all players and all classes, if it is documented as a combo technique supported by the game mechanic. But since it's an occult principle right now, it's really only evident to those paying close attention, or those that are a victim of the shenanigans. As such, it still should be classified as an exploit, especially in the case of duelists, which continue their stacks after interruption. Since it isn't documented, and I've been told directly that this will be addressed, we might be safe to assume these are exploits at this time. 

Animation cancelling is sloppy in games, and often the result of improper client/server sync, depending on what the client/server trust is.

I'm not sure what the client/server trust relationship is with Crowfall right now, but my hunch is that stealth and movement are high trust on client. This is why speed hacks have been measured, and why the duelist ultimate perma-stealth bug can seemingly be triggered at will by 'those in the know'. Gear is server trust, which you can test by swapping gear out quickly and watching the server ping rise and fall simultaneously with that gear swap.

Either way, I would think all of this would be fixed, if not already in 6.1 on test.

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14 minutes ago, Communist_Puppy said:

Like I don't understand why pushing towards trying to have the most optimal/highest DPS through animation cancels is a bad thing if that makes sense?

the main reason is that IT ISNT A PART OF THE STANDARD MECHANICS of the game.

If a company wanted animation canceling, Why wouldnt they bakE it into a simple button push, rather than having player figure out how to right mouseclick at super specific intervals while activating another skill?

If the devs didnt intentionally make it accessable to everyone in an easy to perform function then its an advantage. And if they are ok with people doing this, then people will just use software to automate the canceling.

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3 hours ago, blazzen said:

Honestly the most broken thing I've seen is how rapid fire will continue channeling if you animation cancel into another ability on a Duelist. That's the only thing I'd consider "broken" that needs fixing that I'm aware of. 

💯 

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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11 minutes ago, Gwaehir said:

the main reason is that IT ISNT A PART OF THE STANDARD MECHANICS of the game.

If a company wanted animation canceling, Why wouldnt they bakE it into a simple button push, rather than having player figure out how to right mouseclick at super specific intervals while activating another skill?

If the devs didnt intentionally make it accessable to everyone in an easy to perform function then its an advantage. And if they are ok with people doing this, then people will just use software to automate the canceling.

That's the crux of this.

If it was purposely baked in, documented, and listed as a technique you can learn then I am all for it. However, as I noted, right now it's an occult principle that is not documented, not listed in the combos, and apparently not established as acceptable by the developers. Therefore it should be considered an exploit of a game mechanic or client/server trust in each case of it being used.

Because someone 'has videos' of it going back for a long time doesn't mean it's acceptable, or even encouraged, but that they simply haven't been taken to task for use of the exploit because the product isn't prime-time. I would expect that these things get addressed (if some aren't already in 6.1), and we're at a state where they are either impossible, or much harder to use - and the game goes prime-time, these will be considered censurable exploits.

It's pretty obvious a stack continuation after ability cancel is an exploit. It's pretty obvious that an animation interrupt on the duelist ult causing them to obtain perma-stealth is an exploit. The others aren't really game breaking but if you face two templars against each other and one knows the DL interrupt, and the other doesn't, the one that knows the occult practice is going to have a damage advantage over the other one that can (and probably would) swing the fight.

'I've used it for years, in videos with thousands of views' is like saying you've driven 142MPH on I-75 for years and never got pulled over.  It doesn't make it right, or even lawful.

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34 minutes ago, moneda said:

💯

dagger spins can be qued to to unleash the whole segments of spins by doing this as well.  This the exact same Shadowbane expoit that allowed thrwoing weapons to be qued then unleashed in a barrage of damage.

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1 minute ago, Gwaehir said:

dagger spins can be qued to to unleash the whole segments of spins by doing this as well.

Dagger Spins aren't a channeled power like Rapid Fire. Any canceling of its animation would break the combo chain. 

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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2 hours ago, moneda said:

Dagger Spins aren't a channeled power like Rapid Fire. Any canceling of its animation would break the combo chain. 

Yeah I couldn't duplicate what he said. Cancelation immediately ceases the spin effect, animation and damage.

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5 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

Another example of a weird quirk is how you can aim the start of the "Consonant Chains" power at a player but then turn your camera the opposite way and the power will still hit that target.

That's literally every power in the game. Hit detection is on start of animation. Damage is at the end. Also, there is some sort of ability queue system, at least with LMB combos, and that triggers about half way through the animation. That is why if you hold down LMB to attack or harvest and try to stop on the 3rd attack you actually do 4.

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13 minutes ago, Yoink said:

That's literally every power in the game. Hit detection is on start of animation. 

No it's not. Ranger shots absolutely don't hit detect at the start of the cast.

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3 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

No it's not. Ranger shots absolutely don't hit detect at the start of the cast.

The exception is the charged attacks that technically don't "cast" until you release the charge on the power since that charge time is a variable for various portions of abilities that do include a charge component. Ranger basic attacks fall into this category. Since technically the cast comes on the release of the charge, it is still accurate to say that it is on the "cast" that the hit detect is determined.

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