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So what bugs are bannable?


Tyrannicall
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When I look at the known issues log, many of the things reported in this thread as common knowledge are not listed, so either they are bugs that are not documented or they are not bugs. Everyone seems to get on their high horse about knowing whether something is right nor not. If it is an issue, report it. Maybe it is an issue, maybe it is not. 

 

What is needed though is a bit more clarity. @jtoddcoleman@thomasblair@ACE_JackalBark

  1. Is the Myrmidon Overhealing (Vengeance Titan) a bug or expected gameplay?
  2. Is the Rapid Shot animation cancellation and the fact you don't need to be on target after the first shot a bug or expected gameplay? Obviously the stealth attacks are a bug based on this thread. 
  3. The pit fighter is often viewed as producing too much damage, is it due to a bug or expected gameplay? Is it just something that has to be balanced?
  4. Is the Assassin class broken as is currently in game or is it expected that they wouldn't be great until they get much more crit. chance training?

None of these items are listed on the Known Issues list, so is that due to the issues not being reported, not being issues or just something you aren't worried about balancing at this point? I think the root cause of much of this thread is due to the fact that none of this stuff that is "common knowledge" to some is documented as an issue.

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21 hours ago, Sirktivo said:

I totally agree but lets not take what happened out of context it was a new player that has no idea whats happening, even when watching it back the players first response was no its not this 2v1. When the more experienced eyes can tell instantly it is this 2v1 where it happened

 

Picture for a moment - I walk up to an ATM and hit random numbers on the keypad and it spits out a $20.00 bill each time. Clearly, the ATM is bugged. So I keep doing this, and talking about it, not sure why it's happening. But dang, I am going to keep smacking those numbers and getting 20 dollar bills!

It's an unintended bug with the ATM, sure. But should I sit there and collect $20 bills when I know it's wrong and prosecutable? Maybe I should immediately stop, run into the bank and report it?  'I don't know why this is happening, but damn it's cool' is never really an effective defense for anything.

 

 

 

Edited by Kobra
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-----------------------------------------------
(Edit: Since it sometimes comes (and already again came ~cough~) to misunderstandings, probably due to forum titles and the way I often write: I am neither a part of the team, nor is anything I say necessarily right. I am, in the end, just another tester. What I write is only my personal opinion, based on my personal experiences and overview, and does not necesserily reflect the opionion ot the company. Just saying.)
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First of all: It's great to see some new faces engaging in the forum discussions. Welcome. :)

Second: Congratulations for getting the act (at least mostly) together after the first quite unfortunate thread. That's something most people are not able to. So, hat's off. :) (And try to keep it that way)


As for the basic issue, there is an also quite simple basic 3-step solution:

  • Try to apply some common sense.
  • Learn to control your emotions.
  • ... and refrain from creating your own little hamlet drama with bad lines and an incoherent storyline. (That's just not what this forum is made for and it will only hurt yourself.)


So, some detail suggestions.

It should be pretty obvious if something could be called an exploit or not. If something creates an obvious unbalanced advantage, which will handicap the ability of others to test the game properly ... report it to support@crowfall.com and refrain to use it.

And no, stop debating as if you wouldn't know it when you see it. You know you do.

-> Don't play dumb. Test fair!

You are not the only one who's testing, leave the others some space. You may have the right to test ... but others do, too. Be fair. Use common sense.

If you want to test a bug or possible exploit? Why not - but do it with people who admit to particpate testing it ... and if possible in private space, like the EK's. Don't use it for your own advantage in campaigns. If unsure, ask support@crowfall.com.

Don't expect bugs and exploits to be eliminated immediately. The team is always already working on the next versions of the game. A current bug/exploit may already be solved (and quite often is) - still we only may see it gone in the next version, weeks or months later.

Stay cool, instead of taking things personal. Of course, meanwhile others may use "unintended advantages". So what? Inform them that this is an exploit and should not be used. Maybe report them, if you think you need to. No reason to freak out.

If you get a warning/penalty/ban ... look at yourself first. And, come on man/woman/thing, do it honestly! Are you really sure you had no clue at all that this might have been a bug/exploit? Did you really only use it once and accidentaly? Did you really only test it with your friends in private?

  • If not ... take the blow, you earned it. Duh!
  • If yes ... don't freak out, especially not publicly, but just answer to support and just explain the situation. You should be able to find a solution together.

In no way use your energies for a second-rate theater or witch hunt. That's quite low ... and both the team and the community knows it - there's nothing to gain from it.

For example, several people suddenly coming up with the same argument that they just started testing and now are afraid they would be banned if they, which will inevitably happen, do something that is bugged ... that's just a poor argument, won't work, don't do it, it will only cost your reputation. Again: Common Sense. Please use it.

The Crowfall developers are not monsters. That is, unless you feed them at midnight or give them cats. But if you don't, you can talk to them and they are pretty reasonable and community oriented and listen to (even actively ask for) feedback. So there is no reason to play the fussball game. Really not. At all!

There is a special area in this forum, where policies can be discussed: The Great Hall. Read the rules mention in the subforum and the Rules of Conduct (link in the feater of the main website) to make sure your words are on the save side.

Exploits are not to be shared publicly. Employee communication is not to be quoted. Cases are not to be discussed specifically.

You can discuss it all, as general topics, but do it the right way (or suffer the wrath of, of, ... uh ... some ... some bad shadowy and almighty entity!!! ... or something like that, i, i dunno, i actually repressed the memory ~shudder~ ).

 

For example:

Currently some people demand an official statement about which thing is an exploit or not. That's nonsense. (Sorry). There will always be things that are not covered in any description of what exploits are. The team surely won't handicap their ability of stopping us doing stuff that hurts the game, only because they used a wrong word by defining them too specificall - and rightfully so.

So, instead maybe a good point regarding bans and such might be to find a way how to make sure that, if reprimanded, a player understands that there is no evil will behind it, but that he is invited to explain the situation, so it can be understood and resolved.

Actually, in my point of view, any (or "the usual") ban message sent to a player should not start with a ban (with the option to explain, put in the small print), but with an invitation to explain (with the option of a ban, if not followed up).

Those are things that should be more or less easily done - and throw a completely different light on a company. We, the testers, should not feel pushed away, but invited. Though we of course should also be kicked in the lower inventory slots if we are just copper pots. (I'm sure you know what I mean - I just prefer to be my own profanity filter instead of being subject to those of others (Owls ruuule! ;) )). 


 

This being said, thanks for discussing this important topic constructively.

Have fun, good luck
Kraahk

Edited by Kraahk

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16 minutes ago, Kobra said:

Picture for a moment - I walk up to an ATM and hit random numbers on the keypad and it spits out a $20.00 bill each time. Clearly, the ATM is bugged. So I keep doing this, and talking about it, not sure why it's happening. But dang, I am going to keep smacking those numbers and getting 20 dollar bills!

It's an unintended bug with the ATM, sure. But should I sit there and collect $20 bills when I know it's wrong and prosecutable? Maybe I should immediately stop, run into the bank and report it?  'I don't know why this is happening, but damn it's cool' is never really an effective defense for anything.

The guy in question is streaming right now and apparently multiple people reported his shenanigans; 

https://freeimage.host/i/23NyIs

Did ACE get a report from this guy? Did he submit logs? Or did he just actively use it for an entire evening and call it a day until the banhammer hit home? Based on general chat that night, it appeared that 'there's an invisible dude killing us all' was a pretty big topic of conversation.

 

 

 

the good ole "what ifs"

 

What if the same person that is hitting the ATM is from (insert random country without ATM's if there is one and if not then lets create a place without them because its a what if) and thinks that how they work? Still punishable by the same standard as lets say you and I? 

 

And clearly in that screen shot he is trying to fix the issue. 

It's unfortunate that the model of mmorpg's has changed from the days of when beta/alpha players were invited and were told to post bugs to what we have today with all games, hey "testers" very loose term because most people paid to play that wasnt the case in the past

 

Edited by Sirktivo
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Dear Kraahk,

Well, we already voted Tyrannicall the People's Champion, but you keep formatting those walls of text and you'll be in the running for Revered Guy Who Retypes Stuff in no time.

Edited by Ble
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I dont have any opinion about this ban / unban, but, i think it's a good reminder that :

  • Bug are expected
  • Exploit are expected
  • Community need to search and found bug and exploit
  • Bug and exploit must be reported
  • Exploit and bug must not be used to harass someone

i think that we just need to follow thoses rules and everything will be fine.

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21 hours ago, Sirktivo said:

the good ole "what ifs"

 

What if the same person that is hitting the ATM is from (insert random country without ATM's if there is one and if not then lets create a place without them because its a what if) and thinks that how they work? Still punishable by the same standard as lets say you and I? 

 

And clearly in that screen shot he is trying to fix the issue. 

It's unfortunate that the model of mmorpg's has changed from the days of when beta/alpha players were invited and were told to post bugs to what we have today with all games, hey "testers" very loose term because most people paid to play that wasnt the case in the past

 

Why does my bank account have only $9.25 in it but this ATM insists on giving me $20 bills? The bank manager keeps shouting about it, but I keep telling him I can't stop, and I cannot stop shoving $20 bills in my pocket. I've left the ATM, then came back, and it's still happening, and another three bank employees are now yelling at me.

Oh no, the cops showed up. I am being hauled off now. It was all a bug with the ATM, I didn't know what was going on, honestly!

I know we're in an age where people try to justify literally everything, regardless of how silly it is. But this is a business, and exploits harm business, and there are consequences. K's post was quite elegant.

 

Edited by Kobra
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3 hours ago, Tyrannicall said:

Alright so let me do this a different way. If the stealth bug is a bannable offense, what else is a bannable offense? Will i get banned for using a vengeance myrm? What about if im playing a slayer and i intentionally cancel my rapid fire with flintlock to take advantage of the fact that rapid fire continues? @jtoddcoleman @thomasblair

 

I feel if your calling it a bug u shouldnt intentionally use it

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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6 minutes ago, Kobra said:

Why does my bank account have only $9.25 in it but this ATM insists on giving me $20 bills? The bank manager keeps shouting about it, but I keep telling him I can't stop, and I cannot stop shoving $20 bills in my pocket. I've left the ATM, then came back, and it's still happening, and another three bank employees are now yelling at me.

Oh no, the cops showed up. I am being hauled off now. It was all a bug with the ATM, I didn't know what was going on, honestly!

But honestly, it went on for hours, it was made abundantly clear what was going on. He played up the 'I'm trying to fix it guys! Please excuse me for killing you over and over with unlimited invisibility. I feverously work to correct this!' so well you'd think an Oscar was on the line. 

I know we're in an age where people try to justify literally everything, regardless of how silly it is. But this is a business, and exploits harm business, and there are consequences. Jack's post was quite elegant.

You are talking about visible $20 bills spitting out when you know you only have $9.25. That is relatively clear cut.

Many things that are possibly unintended "exploits" are not so clear cut. Like the example that triggered today's discussion-- someone being invisible to other players and plausibly not knowing it.

Here's a modified version of you bank error: a bank credits your account with a lot of money accidentally. You don't know it. Someone else reports you for it. Are you guilty of something? If you protest that you didn't even know the money was in your account, would you be trying to "justify literally everything"?

IhhQKY6.gif

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2 minutes ago, Tyrannicall said:

I dont play Myrm or slayer so i can honestly say i have never used either.

 

neither do i, but i just find it funny when people call things a bugf when they describe thing and then continues to use it and is surprised they get a ban for it 😛
As for stealth bug it clearly abusing it when u can kill people and not even appear on there screen and they cant fight back at all 😛

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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20 hours ago, Jah said:

You are talking about visible $20 bills spitting out when you know you only have $9.25. That is relatively clear cut.

Many things that are possibly unintended "exploits" are not so clear cut. Like the example that triggered today's discussion-- someone being invisible to other players and plausibly not knowing it.

Here's a modified version of you bank error: a bank credits your account with a lot of money accidentally. You don't know it. Someone else reports you for it. Are you guilty of something? If you protest that you didn't even know the money was in your account, would you be trying to "justify literally everything"?

'Sorry guys, I am killing you invisible, and twisting and turning all of the knobs on my PC to try and fix it. I'm still going to kill you, for hours, but rest assured, I am twisting and turning every knob on my computer to stop this tragedy.'

Come on folks. 😛

Edited by Kobra
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3 hours ago, Sirktivo said:

So what youre saying is dont play a single class? because i can probably name 1 bug for each class as its is? at least doesnt follow what the tool tip says

im curious now :P What bout ranger? :P

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, Kobra said:

'Sorry guys, I am killing you invisible, and twisting and turning all of the knobs on my PC to try and fix it. I'm still going to kill you, for hours, but rest assured, I am twisting and turning every knob on my computer to stop this tragedy.'

Yeah, completely innocent. For hours on end.

How much more clear cut do you need than that? The guy admitted he was doing it. Even if he states he 'isn't quite sure' how it is happening. He continued to do it, over and over, griefing people utilizing an exploit. 

I think you are mistaken. And you dodged my point about how not all bugs are as obvious as a bank spitting out money you know you don't have in your account.

IhhQKY6.gif

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19 hours ago, Jah said:

I think you are mistaken. And you dodged my point about how not all bugs are as obvious as a bank spitting out money you know you don't have in your account.

Justification of any negative action impacting such as exploiting somethingis just an excuse from people that seem to have a sort of cognitive bias from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Edited by Kobra
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3 minutes ago, Kobra said:

The photo of it clearly shows he knew it was a bug, and he was exploiting it. I think the ban should have been affirmed if anything as more and more evidence came forth.

Anything else is just an excuse from people that seem to have a sort of cognitive bias from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I'm not here to argue a specific case. I'm talking about how not all bugs are obvious. Not all "exploits" are intentional. That is what this thread is about-- seeking clarity.

IhhQKY6.gif

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5 minutes ago, Kobra said:

The photo of it clearly shows he knew it was a bug, and he was exploiting it. I think the ban should have been affirmed if anything as more and more evidence came forth.

Anything else is just an excuse from people that seem to have a sort of cognitive bias from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

What about that photo shows that he was "clearly exploiting it"?

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