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Is Animation Canceling Dead? Did you miss it?


Flash casting to clip animations is dead.  

72 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you going to miss it?

    • Yes
      37
    • No
      27
    • Who cares?
      8


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4 hours ago, Prometeu said:

I would like to have it being introduced as an intended mechanic. The fact that it got removed it's a sign that it was most likely not intended to work the way it did.

/salute

Yeah, either build the combat with it in mind or take it off completely.

Someone said they are losing a part of their buffs duration on animation. That is a fair point. Shame I didnt see it being raised anywhere before. Suddenly it becomes a issue now. C'mon folks.

I think the best example is my warden Archer stake where one of my promo talent nodes reduces/removes it's incredibly long base animation. If people think animations or whatever are long the problem should be adressed at the source.

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Getting rid of cancels is fine. Crowfall's flash casting wasn't designed to shave frames off of animations. It was designed to reactively break the GCD for certain effects that are designed to interru

I'm in the boat with Ama and see this as needed and good change. Animation cancelling is up tuning those classes that have powerful fashcasts more than intended. But I do agree that flashcasts generat

Animation canceling isn't perfect in this game.  I would prefer it to take more skill than it did.  The timing requirement was basically zero (which makes sense admittedly, hard to create tight timing

4 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Yeah, either build the combat with it in mind or take it off completely.

Someone said they are losing a part of their buffs duration on animation. That is a fair point. Shame I didnt see it being raised anywhere before. Suddenly it becomes a issue now. C'mon folks.

I think the best example is my warden Archer stake where one of my promo talent nodes reduces/removes it's incredibly long base animation. If people think animations or whatever are long the problem should be adressed at the source.

all 3 rangers get a talent that removes the deploy time.

I will say one thing with animation cancel some classes could abuse the poorly made dergs out of it while other classes had no way in doing so. so balance is thrown off with the use of animation cancels since it wasnt planned to begin with.

Edited by veeshan

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6 hours ago, Makuza said:

I believe its a bug related to the attempt of "fixing" rapidfire... alot of systems broke with this patch and iam confident to see them being fixed soonish. Flashcasts are made for animationcancel, they are literally the definition for it and you want to have this if you want any kind of skillceiling in this game.

I truly hope it's a temporary bug. Also for me, flashcasts add deep into the game and in my opinion, we should have more of those, not less. It almost feels like with all this changes the game is getting closer to an app game in order to listen some random whiners that think to speak for ACE or for the comunity.

To me, seems like the game is going in the direction where the only gap or diversification between players/guilds, is the time they can spend for the infinite grind or the ppl they can bring in.

Meanwhile skillceiling is actually close to the ground, flashcast is almost gone, and everyone are using the same few disciplines... 

 

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4 hours ago, Kundrya said:

It adds balance. Classes are balanced for regular play style and balance is broken if one class is able to cancel every animation and the other class isn´t.

Then balance around animation cancel? 

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Animation canceling isn't perfect in this game.  I would prefer it to take more skill than it did.  The timing requirement was basically zero (which makes sense admittedly, hard to create tight timing windows in mass scale MMOs) and there is no cost to animation canceling.  Usually animation canceling is gated by one of these two mechanics (costs something like a resource or a cooldown, or has an execution barrier so it can be custarded up).  I would like to see animation canceling return but with something along these lines.

 

That being said, any animation canceling is better than no animation canceling.  If the classes are balanced around these long "cast times" then just balance the classes that can animation cancel around the fact they can do so.  We desperately need a way for individually skilled players to stand out in this game.

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If I can’t block cancel on my knight at the end of animations it actually decreases my survivability by a lot in basically every size fight in this game. 
 

Guess I’m re-rolling again because they are going to need to completely rework this class now that they made this change. 
 

Interested to see how this all plays out in a fight but I’m not a fan of a blanket change to animation canceling. 
 

I agree with what @Hungry said.

wouldnt it be easier to balance the few classes that actually had a real advantage from it rather than changing how it works and opening up an entirely new can of worms?

we already knew the abilities that stuck out and created massive imbalance due to the animation cancelling....(slayers and that’s basically it) so why not balance those classes and those abilities rather than resetting the test environment where we now need to figure out a whole new landscape of what might be screwed up.

and as a last thing I do also feel like this makes the combat a whole lot more bland and just all around less enjoyable. 
 

a fix like this in this manner just gives me the feeling you guys are either listening to the wrong things in these forum posts and suggestions or you’re not listening to them at all. But this feels really tone deaf

 

Edited by Nagoty
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7 hours ago, moneda said:

I'd like to believe this; otherwise it's just another change that makes combat less interesting and fun but adds nothing.

Logged in to my Fury today and yeah, far less interesting to play needing to watch your long animations play out to make sure your "flash cast" Block ability doesn't actually screw you. Also, needing the animations to play out before using Block opens me up further for CC and getting punched in the face which is an unneeded nerf IMO.

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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Was the intent here just to fix slayers or was ACE trying to eliminate the opportunity for skillful play?  This change definitely accomplishes both, but it's sad to see the game mechanics stripped of more ways for player skill to matter.  Hopefully this is an issue that will be addressed in the fabled future balance pass, because as it stands combat is now entirely about knowing which abilities and discs are trash, and positioning properly.

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2 minutes ago, ComradeAma said:

I like how we are overreacting again.

This thread is probably an over reaction ahead of whatever changes are coming in 6.200. The point is that they are making more undocumented and significant design changes without sharing rationale via patch notes that impact classes today PRIOR to whatever vision of these classes are realized, all while we're playing a live game that always gets worse before it gets better.

Will it get better? Probably. It'll shake out favorably one way or another, but if we don't constructively give feedback on problems as players perceive them then it is very difficult for the devs to implement solutions that satisfy "balance" (if that is the problem) and game feel. Otherwise we're just left with a bad experience.

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1 minute ago, galvia said:

This thread is probably an over reaction ahead of whatever changes are coming in 6.200. The point is that they are making more undocumented and significant design changes without sharing rationale via patch notes that impact classes today PRIOR to whatever vision of these classes are realized, all while we're playing a live game that always gets worse before it gets better.

Will it get better? Probably. It'll shake out favorably one way or another, but if we don't constructively give feedback on problems as players perceive them then it is very difficult for the devs to implement solutions that satisfy "balance" (if that is the problem) and game feel. Otherwise we're just left with a bad experience.

In my memory this is the 6th change in character controller in Crowfall history. When wide animation cancels were introduced in 5.9, we did not even react to that. Imho double casting 3rd LMB + Neck Slasher under Frenzy for no animation was massive balance issue, canceling whole coin animation for Slayer - too, but we ignored it. Now it is "fixed" and we say it is bad. It is just different. Animation cancel is still in the game, you have to learn timings on your skills instead of smashing keyboard.

Look at that from the other angle, in duel vs slayer you can win by interrupting their coin now. One more option to outplay.

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I'm in the boat with Ama and see this as needed and good change. Animation cancelling is up tuning those classes that have powerful fashcasts more than intended. But I do agree that flashcasts generating buffs need to have their timer start at the end of the cast. For those complaining about having to reroll that's what tends to happen when you move from 1 FoTM class to the next.

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I'd consider this thread more of a reaction than an overreaction. Considering how many combat changes have gone through without much furor the fact this one didn't is interesting enough.

Also, I think it's gotten a bit more scrutiny because the change itself seems like a poor reaction to outcry from people who were mad about mechanics they didn't understand. 

LOL at any belief this was an attempt at balance. Templars, Knights and Clerics were just oUt Of CoNtRoL eh? 😏 

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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12 hours ago, Nagoty said:

Guess I’m re-rolling again because they are going to need to completely rework this class now that they made this change. 

This is what needs to happen.

Depending on animation cancelling to make a class viable is not good.

I'm all for people finding quirks and mechanics to increase the skill ceiling, but the base kit shouldn't be unplayable without such things.

Also would prefer that if animation cancelling was fully intended that combat mechanics would account for them so it wasn't just twitchy cheese. Like having impact on CD/GCD/resource cost.

One problem is people take way too much advantage of such things and aren't providing honest feedback. I didn't see all the FG's shouting how broken the class was. What happens? Some start complaining and sledge hammer "balance" joins the party instead of fixing bugs and doing proper balance. It's easier to just remove the problem.

At this point I don't believe ACE plays their own game and they need proper feedback. People being slick taking advantage of mechanics like this are only going to make it worse IMO.

 


 

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Getting rid of cancels is fine. Crowfall's flash casting wasn't designed to shave frames off of animations. It was designed to reactively break the GCD for certain effects that are designed to interrupt your attack chain. They fixed them to ensure they are used for their intended purpose, as reactionary skills.

"The skill ceiling" is a moot point in this design.

Individual player combat skill is a factor, but its impact is deliberately secondary to the impact of more accessible player skills like group composition, target calling, planning, build theorycrafting, and encounter selection. Crowfall is a sandbox that works like a sandbox. Its aim, even in the middle of a fight is to outsmart your opponent, not to out-react them, or out-tech them.

In a system with no matchmaking and no guarantees of an even engagement, the lower the distance between the skill floor and ceiling, the better the combat experience is for everyone involved. Most sandbox mmos execute this my allowing players to leverage economic and social factors to make up for a lack of manual dexterity skill factors.

If what is required to win a 60v60 siege is your 60 guys need to be MLG 360 noscope faze alternates you've built a terrible siege pvp game because those players are by definition the exception rather than the rule. Most of the members of crowfall's most successful guilds are terrible at solo PvP. They are, as a guild, very good at Crowfall because they are, as a guild, veterans of the type of game crowfall is, and as such very good. Then you have a guy like Zybak, who has a niche. He may have extremely high mechanical skill that wins 1v1s and 1v2s. He may use it to make cool videos and thirsty attention seeking memes but the greater impact of his presence in a group fight becomes negligible compared to the total cohesion of the groups in question. In terms of what crowfall is designed to reward, Zybak's skill is a non-factor. Players near the skill ceiling are anomalies that can have fun regardless of what the system does to ensure that its overall goals work as a group combat and group strategy game.

Skill-focused systems require a model of competition designed to reward skill. Fighting games are skill focused systems. MOBAs are skill focused systems. Skill focused systems are designed around a set of equitable starting points designed to ensure the outcome of a contest is a result of only player choices given the same opportunities in an even competition.

If you expect all of these players to inhabit the same competitive environment with no separation because your design requires a critical mass of bodies to function at its best, the higher your skill ceiling is, the worse your game is for the vast majority of people playing it. Most players within a given competition (read: a given campaign)sit in the middle of the skill spectrum, with a small number near the bottom (people like free beta testers and FOEX) and a small number near the top (people like Zybak and Staff). If the impact of those at the top is amplified too much, the entire system ceases to function properly.

Crowfall's model of competition both isn't, and functionally can't be designed to reward individual player skill all that much. It is designed to reward economics, planning, command, and unit cohesion because those are factors accessible to both the bottom and top of the spectrum of player skills. If your world has to include both braindead newbies and 40k APM starcraft champions on vacation in the same match, then your goal is to create a game that is fun for both of them to play. If that is your goal you have to give them a system that can be reasonably executed by both at a high level of efficiency. The guy that has been playing a week has to feel like he can actually challenge the vet, and the vet has to feel like the guy playing a week is a threat, or your open sandbox doesn't work as the likelihood of two similarly skilled players meeting in satisfying combat for either is pretty darn low.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Animation canceling was something everyone could learn.

What this patch introduced was clunky combat. Combat where you can screw up your powers by casting other powers. Animation canceling actually lowered the skill ceiling. I know that if I panic in this patch I could potentially screw up my illuminate if I block or use my ultimate. I know that if I use my flintlock with the wrong cooldown I could lose that cooldown. Animation canceling was lenient, not skillful. It prevented players from screwing themselves over, even if that meant some Slayer was maybe getting buffs half a second faster than he was supposed to.

And even then, it feels like a bug, as Pepperbox works perfectly fine most times when animation canceled and redirect pain can't be punished unless you're clairvoyant.

If the intent was to allow other players to punish your animations (which, by the way, does in no way "lower the skill ceiling," at all) then put it in the patch notes. This entire thread wouldn't exist if one of the devs said "Hey guys, we're canning animation canceling for most buffs because they currently can't be punished."

And if it is intended to stay this way maybe give players an indicator of what can and can't be canceled in the form of a cast bar.

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5 hours ago, Ble said:

They somehow keep making this game worse, little by little.  I really don't understand it.  You'd think they'd get it wrong every now and again and accidentally make something better. 

Never underestimate the ability of some folks to be so bad that their success results in failure. 

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atkline_en.jpg?h=86215d432e9522a0ba3907d

Using this diagram to represent the animation of a skill:

Animation cancelling should let you clip some of the Recovery Time if you activate another skill during that portion.

If you cancel during Active Attack Frames or Startup, the original skill should not continue its effects.

The problem we were having (still are having for some skills?) is that Crowfall lets you cancel during the Startup or Active Attack phase while still having the skill succeed. That's not animation cancelling. That's just a bug.

Edited by nihilsupernum
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6 hours ago, Jacca said:

Animation canceling was something everyone could learn.

What this patch introduced was clunky combat. Combat where you can screw up your powers by casting other powers. Animation canceling actually lowered the skill ceiling. I know that if I panic in this patch I could potentially screw up my illuminate if I block or use my ultimate. I know that if I use my flintlock with the wrong cooldown I could lose that cooldown. Animation canceling was lenient, not skillful. It prevented players from screwing themselves over, even if that meant some Slayer was maybe getting buffs half a second faster than he was supposed to.

And even then, it feels like a bug, as Pepperbox works perfectly fine most times when animation canceled and redirect pain can't be punished unless you're clairvoyant.

If the intent was to allow other players to punish your animations (which, by the way, does in no way "lower the skill ceiling," at all) then put it in the patch notes. This entire thread wouldn't exist if one of the devs said "Hey guys, we're canning animation canceling for most buffs because they currently can't be punished."

And if it is intended to stay this way maybe give players an indicator of what can and can't be canceled in the form of a cast bar.

The point of every flash cast ability is "stop what you are doing right now to do another thing" not "add more apm to what you are doing"

Blocking mid-cast screws up the cast because you've stopped casting to block. You interrupt yourself so you can react at the cost of whatever it was you were doing, not in addition to what you were already doing. If you block and interrupt your cast, that's block doing what it was designed to do. Allow you to prioritize fizzling a CC or blocking an incoming attack over finishing your cast by sacrificing the cast.

This is not a complicated design to figure out. Flashcasting is designed as a self-interrupt, and they are enforcing it as a self-interrupt. Not a personal APM buff. Its about the system not functioning for its intended purpose, which is not to allow players to interrupt your animations, but to allow YOU to interrupt your animations.

The alternative is effectively *requiring* learning animation cancels, a generally unintuitive, and largely unintentional technique as an APM inflation mechanism to play a game balanced around cast times and cooldowns. That wasn't what flash casts were ever supposed to do, and likely why they changed it because the skills were behaving in an unintended manner that made flash casting cease functioning as a decision with opportunity costs. The way cancels were being applied wrecked the levers they were using to balance combat, and it took them a long time to figure it out because its a bug that doesn't present itself in a straightforward read of the combat system. Contrary to popular belief, using cancels in this manner is not a thing the average user thinks to do. It is an esoteric technique and "ascended exploit" in most systems where it can be used. Systems that opt to keep it have to add another balance lever to their combat system to account for it and design around it.

Crowfall is already midway through a major rework of combat balance, likely without balancing for frame cancels being a concept. If ACE thinks it is an exploit not worth the effort of reworking in to a feature for I'm inclined to agree with them. Crowfall is complicated enough, and apparently about to get even more complex. It doesn't actually need concepts like "wait .3 seconds through the animation to hit the button, but not 0.2 seconds, and you can increase your DPS by x%" to muck around with on top of the fifteen million stats, stat caps, ability combinations, and synergies.

Certainly not so you can panic block and not pay the intended cost for panic blocking anyway.

Edited by PopeUrban

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