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6.2 Sanctifier Suggestion


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In a conversation with some guildies earlier Condemnation was brought up and that it would be cool if Sanctifier has the ability to move while casting it as part of their kit due to Condemnation being a big part of their kit. Think this would be cool personally too as Sanctifier doesn't seem to have much of an identity other than being a short range confessor as they do less damage than fanatic and aren't that tanky compared to other 'tank' classes as enemies can easily dodge out of their Condemnation. This change would help a little with its identity as it would let the Sanctifier stay glued to its target as it's reduced dodge cooldown and its reduced retaliate cost allow it to be quite mobile for a tank yet one of its core abilities keeps it rooted in place.

Edited by Overtalker
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So technically Sanctifiers have the highest raw damage ceiling out of all of the promotions but you tend to not see it because you need to be vesseled and wearing very good gear to get to that point. With the gear compression, it will be even harder to see it. Them wearing plate generally also impacts this.

Condemnation has always been pretty situational for them but still has viability in large scale where you have less movement.

The nerf to how righteous shield works was a big hit to their survivability. The duration of the shield and the ICD not matching makes it possible that your shield isn't used at all leaving huge windows for you to get pressured on them. I'm curious to see what they do with them in 6.2 and if we see any of the base kit get changed.

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Ya I'm curious what they'll do to this class too. The higher vessel thing holds true with this class and with its healing rat on top of it. I think the highest i got to was 31/42 per tick on condemnation.  Would love to see hellfire aura pushed out to 6/7m so its more punishing to be in range of a sanctifier.

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41 minutes ago, Phylor.the.Jester said:

So technically Sanctifiers have the highest raw damage ceiling out of all of the promotions but you tend to not see it because you need to be vesseled and wearing very good gear to get to that point.

I hear this a lot about promotions that are not good or are overperforming. "Assassin sucks, but it will be better in end-game gear." "Slayer isn't OP. It's just good early-game because people don't have vessels and stats". "Just wait 3 months/years/centuries until passive training finishes, then it'll all be balanced".

.. and maybe that is true. I don't know.

What I do know is that it doesn't need to be like that. It is possible to have skills/abilities/numbers balanced in such a way that classes start at similar power levels and end up at similar power levels. That probably means tweaking the base damage/mitigation and scaling %s on various skills. The sooner the better. We shouldn't have a game where everyone plays a few promotions early game and then switches to others later once gear/passives/vessels supports what they want to play.

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10 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

What I do know is that it doesn't need to be like that. It is possible to have skills/abilities/numbers balanced in such a way that classes start at similar power levels and end up at similar power levels. That probably means tweaking the base damage/mitigation and scaling %s on various skills. The sooner the better. We shouldn't have a game where everyone plays a few promotions early game and then switches to others later once gear/passives/vessels supports what they want to play.

Issue with having things balanced no matter their gear level is that there's no perfect balance. Doing this would only mean that the class that does the best from the start will stay the best throughout without any changes. With the vessel system it also wouldn't be good to balance from the start because different classes/races are affected by vessels differently. Vessels allow races to reach their stat caps and its those stat caps (+ passives) that determine what class is best for their race so balancing a class when they cant reach any stat cap will cause issues for when those classes start having vessels around them.

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20 minutes ago, Overtalker said:

Doing this would only mean that the class that does the best from the start will stay the best throughout without any changes. 

Right. And at that point, you can identify that class and trim it down a bit if it's overperforming relative to the rest. That's better than having some be overpowered at the start and underpowered at the end, right?

 

20 minutes ago, Overtalker said:

With the vessel system it also wouldn't be good to balance from the start because different classes/races are affected by vessels differently. Vessels allow races to reach their stat caps and its those stat caps (+ passives) that determine what class is best for their race so balancing a class when they cant reach any stat cap will cause issues for when those classes start having vessels around them.

Sure. So what I'm saying is, tweak the formulas so that they are balanced at stat cap, but also balanced at low/white stats.

So like, with sanctifier, maybe too much of its offense and defense is coming from gear/stats. If so, take some of the power out of stat scaling %s and add it back as base damage / base mitigation. Make sense?

Now how do you deal with different races having different stat caps? Here you'd need to make it so that different stats help different classes in multiple ways. Maybe a higher Dex / lower Int Sanctifier doesn't hit as hard, but makes up for it by critting more in a way that balances out.

 

Look, I'm not saying this will be easy, and I don't envy the job of the person who has to look at all the formulas and figure it out, but I do think it is possible.

Edited by nihilsupernum
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2 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

Right. And at that point, you can identify that class and trim it down a bit if it's overperforming relative to the rest. That's better than having some be overpowered at the start and underpowered at the end, right?

 

Sure. So what I'm saying is, tweak the formulas so that they are balanced at stat cap, but also balanced at low/white stats. This should be possible. Maybe it's difficult, but I think it should be possible in theory.

So like, with sanctifier, maybe too much of its offense and defense is coming from gear/stats. If so, take some of the power out of stat scaling %s and add it back as base damage / base mitigation. Make sense?

Makes sense though I feel most people are fine with it as is with some classes just getting better as gear progresses. No offence to any of the ACE devs either but I don't think they could even balance like that looking back and given how well the game is balanced atm. Would be nice to see the game a little more balanced though I think a more balanced version of what they have now would be preferable. The issue with balancing the stat cap instantly becomes whichever race gives the best passives and skills then that will be what's used. There'll just never be a scenario where something isn't objectively the best class or the best race even if ACE was doing a better job. Some of the best feelings in a game is when you can feel the power increase too and I think removing gear from the balance equation would make it feel a little too linear in power progression if that makes sense.

Taking Archer as an example it would be extremely hard to not balance it around it's gear as it gets a lot of it's Ranged Distance bonus from its gear which is what gives Archer it's main advantage over other ranged classes, having this come without gear would greatly increase Archers power as they don't even need gear (bit of an exaggeration) anymore.

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23 minutes ago, Overtalker said:

Taking Archer as an example it would be extremely hard to not balance it around it's gear as it gets a lot of it's Ranged Distance bonus from its gear which is what gives Archer it's main advantage over other ranged classes, having this come without gear would greatly increase Archers power as they don't even need gear (bit of an exaggeration) anymore.

Probably what I'd do there is remove Ranged Distance as a stat that can be added to weapons and instead have it be standard. Bows shoot X distance. Pistols shoot Y distance. Magical attacks go Z distance. Then certain classes (like Archer or Sanctifier) modify those distances with their talents.

 

23 minutes ago, Overtalker said:

Some of the best feelings in a game is when you can feel the power increase too and I think removing gear from the balance equation would make it feel a little too linear in power progression if that makes sense.

True. Luckily, right now I think the problem is that many classes are getting too much power from their talents and skills (eg. Slayer), so the answer is probably more scaling (for most) not less. Sanctifier is maybe an exception.

Edit: but yeah, this is all very complicated.. I'm not a game dev. Dunno. They probably have good reasons for things.

Edited by nihilsupernum
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39 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

Right. And at that point, you can identify that class and trim it down a bit if it's overperforming relative to the rest. That's better than having some be overpowered at the start and underpowered at the end, right?

 

Sure. So what I'm saying is, tweak the formulas so that they are balanced at stat cap, but also balanced at low/white stats.

So like, with sanctifier, maybe too much of its offense and defense is coming from gear/stats. If so, take some of the power out of stat scaling %s and add it back as base damage / base mitigation. Make sense?

Now how do you deal with different races having different stat caps? Here you'd need to make it so that different stats help different classes in multiple ways. Maybe a higher Dex / lower Int Sanctifier doesn't hit as hard, but makes up for it by critting more in a way that balances out.

 

Look, I'm not saying this will be easy, and I don't envy the job of the person who has to look at all the formulas and figure it out, but I do think it is possible.

 

So you're looking at this from somewhat the wrong angle. The reason that Sanctifiers have the highest potential damage is because they get a stat that can't be gained from other places with Spitting distance. The base damage stat doesn't have a cap because it comes from very few places. It also isn't actually visible on the details sheet which is moderately annoying.

The reason that Inquisitors are popular early is because their talent branch comes with a ton of AP along with FDM and some crit pieces. The problem with these stats(AP and FDM in particular) is that they are easy to cap. Crit less so than it was in the past though. Once you cap your AP, those nodes drop in values very quickly making that promotion less appealing. As vessels and gear increase in power, you almost completely replace those sources of AP in the talent tree with your gear. This means you're now looking at stats that don't cap easily as being places where you can make gains on your damage. Spitting distance provides that.

So while it looks like gear is what makes them viable and should be applicable to the classes that already do more damage to start, really doesn't apply because those classes are already very close or are already hard capping on some of the common stats included in their talent trees meaning things like the Sanctifier actually have room to catch up.

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I'd like to see an improvement to the sustainability, both solo and in groups.  When I fight other melee I find that I get an early adavantage but then they basically just self heal until they outlast me and in groups I just don't feel tanky enough to stand on the front line.  Other melee classes have multiple barriers and heals.  Sanctifier has 1 random proc barrier and 1 poor excuse for a heal.

-Make poise add a heal to using Fervor

-Add a damage reduction and/or barrier to Hellfire Shield or Hellfire Aura

I'd like see better CC as well, given that Sanctifier has no movement and no range we really need a way to keep our opponents close.  I honestly think they should roll Inquisitor into Sanctifier, as inquisitor seems absolutely useless and the Sanctifier real needs some CC.

The ultimate is not very good for all Confessors.  It could be the worst ultimate in the game (at least that I've played so far).  It's very rare that I get good use out of it.  I'd really like to see it do damage or heal or something, maybe even a channeled spell that blinds all nearby enemies and gives immune during the channel.  Just about anything would be better than the current ultimate.

Last of all...  The Mastery Talent in Sanctifier is god awful.  I think it's debatable whether you're better not taking it, which for a talent that is supposed to be the pinnacle of the specialization, that's horrible.  Spitting Distance should be moved to the Promotional talent and we should be given a mastery talent that is in line with some of the cool talents that most classes get at the end of their specialization.  If you blow up the Inquisitor tree Cleansing Fire fits the Sanctifier more than it fits into the Inquisitor tree.

That's my thoughts.  I hope Sanctifier gets some love because it's a really fun class to play and a really cool concept, but it lacks viability in most, if not all, situations.

Edited by Deeks_Gaming
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