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unknownxv

Concern Over Passive Vs. Active Skill Training

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There are two ways that a character can increase his or her skills: passive training (in a method similar to “Eve Online”) and active training (i.e. doing things in game). Active training can help you get a jumpstart on a new skill, but it can only get you basic competency. The primary method of increasing your skills is passive training.

 

 

That is from the characters & advancement FAQ released today. I am troubled over the final sentence. 

 

The primary method of increasing your skills will be passive training, whereas active training will be limited. Why am I concerned over this? Because the campaign worlds are fleeting and fade away. That is the core concept of this game, that each world is born, lives and dies, only to be reborn anew for the whole experience to dynamically restart, with the exception of each character. The characters are persistent. 

 

This is a great concept. I really do love it. What worries me however is this game won't feel very much like an RPG, because it is only a matter of time (quite literally) until everyone is maxed out in the only elements that are persistent, your own character. This will make the game feel more like a large arena/strategy game than an MMORPG.

 

I am certainly biased though, I must say. My teenage years were spent mostly in Runescape. What was hammered into me in my impressionable years were such a heavy focus on our individual characters and progression therein, the quantity of effort to advance your stats was monumental, unseen in any other MMORPG I know of. It was hard. Very hard. But that's why I loved it. Because you could be special, with enough effort. You could stand out. Isn't that what most want from an MMORPG? Well, it's what I want (among other things). 

 

So how would I do things differently? I actually am not entirely against passive training, but I would inverse their priority. Passive would be the limited option and active would be the meat of training. At the very least, I would not make active training the inferior option. There's something very wrong about becoming an expert in an in-game skill without even being logged in. Maybe it's just me but... it's off. It doesn't feel right. 

 

So far however I've only been referencing combat related skills. When it comes to crafting, I adamantly am against any form of passive training. Crafting is the lifeblood of a sandbox game and of player created economies. It is critical that it remain very difficult to master any given field of crafting and experience not be handed to everyone for free. 

 

Nothing of value is ever easy. 

 

If we're all special, no one is. 

 

I would use an exponential system, similar to Runescapes (doesn't have to be identical of course).

 

A graphic example:

 

XP_per_level_graph.png

 

As you can see, this system allows one to level up to around mid tier without much difficulty. So people can dabble in or focus to a moderate degree and see results, but to truly master the profession, you need gargantuan commitment and effort, as well as a lot of time. Which to reiterate is so very important again because only our characters are persistent. It needs to be hard and take a long time to master them, or else the game, at least to me, would start to feel.. empty. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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We dont know what the passive or active training will be.  I know in Eve Online a character CANNOT max out every skill.  There isnt enough time in a persons' lifetime to do such a feat.

 

It could be possible that Plate Armor Rank 3 will take 3 weeks (RL time). (example pulled from space via monkey).

Edited by jetah

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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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A factor of time alone isn't enough though. Time is easy. Active effort is not. Given a few years, virtually everyone will be maxed out with a time-based leveling system. With active leveling, far fewer will be. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Saying it's a matter of time before everyone I capped is untrue- I severely doubt they will let you queue passive training- so continuing to progress that way requires you to stay at least active enough to know when it's time to log in and assign the next skill to passive train. People who go AWOL will not come back 6 months later to a maxed character.

 

Additionally we've already been told there are other aspects to your character progression(I think they called them masteries?) that are only gained in game. And of course there's also skill unlocks and crafting blueprints to find in game.

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A factor of time alone isn't enough though. Time is easy. Active effort is not. Given a few years, virtually everyone will be maxed out with a time-based leveling system. With active leveling, far fewer will be. 

as of March 11, 2013 it would take a player 18 years, 145 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes and 6 seconds to learn all skills in Eve Online (and more have been added since then) with redoing the characters attributes (read they might be removing attributes, different discussion).  

 

How long you plan on playing CF?


etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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I think some passive development would be a nice diversion, but tying the majority of progression to inactive progression is very unwelcome. Sounds like farmville.

 

Farmfall >.>


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Odd, the image attached has shrunk (even in the original link). Well, you can still get the idea. 

 

The thing with EvE online is it doesn't actually take 18 years to master all skills that are practically used. The reason it seems so long is because of capital ship related skills. Remove those and it falls down to just a few years to fully master everything (even exploration and blueprint research skills), all for just logging in and changing the automatically trained skill of the week. I never liked that about EvE. 

 

Again, I'm not entirely opposed to some passive training, I just hope it isn't the main source of experience. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Passive progress is a throttling mechanism that's good for inactive games. It robs the player of a sense of agency when he's developing his character it's a big no no that's going to hurt.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Creating strict vertical progression just won't work well for a campaign-based PvP game.

 

People need to be able to log in for the first time a year after release, and not feel like they won't be competitive until they grind out X amount of levels, or wait X amount of months to passively train up.

 

Nothing will turn new people away more than feeling worthless for their first few campaigns.

Edited by Teekey

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CF.GG


Your primary source of Crowfall news, guides, and information.

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Progression depth and progression method are not the same thing, in fact, if it's waiting based progression players will have to wait til they are competitive, rather than playing til their competitive. Just horribad.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Correct Teekey, which is why the difference in power of a new player versus a master veteran should not be dramatic. Noticeable, but not dramatic. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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I'm not concerned.  I love the way Eve worked where you could be using a set of skills in game while training a whole different line of skills passively that I would have never used at a low level.  Avoids the needless grinding of low level skills just to skill up.  

 

My only interest (not a concern at this point) is seeing how well they will avoid skilling up too quickly.  The great thing about Eve is that you could become proficient very quickly (level 3), but getting to level 4 took quite awhile and level 5 often took a week to a month for a single skill to level 5.  

 

The other great thing about Eve was there were MANY MANY skills to train.  In this game, if I'm a tank I may just go to "max" level for heavy armor and two handed sword right away.  Need to make sure that there are other skills you need and that training can not only keep you busy for years (many years) but that you will always in some way be improving your character or adding valuable diversity.

 

Will be very interesting how they pull that off.

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Progression depth and progression method are not the same thing, in fact, if it's waiting based progression players will have to wait til they are competitive, rather than playing til their competitive. Just horribad.

 

You're making so many assumptions, it's basically impossible to argue otherwise.

 

I'm envisioning a game with horizontal progression (more tools in the tool bag), you're imagining a game with vertical progression (stronger and more deadly tools).


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CF.GG


Your primary source of Crowfall news, guides, and information.

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You can always expand your Eternal Kingdom and try to get more people to visit. There will probably be more content to play through, more characters to try... in every other game that I can think of, your character hit some sort of max point. Did you stop playing then? If it was a PvE gear progression game and you got BIS crap, did you quit? If so, then we know what kind of player you are, if not... then something beyond "maxing your character" mattered to you and could well do so again.

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You can always expand your Eternal Kingdom and try to get more people to visit. There will probably be more content to play through, more characters to try... in every other game that I can think of, your character hit some sort of max point. Did you stop playing then? If it was a PvE gear progression game and you got BIS crap, did you quit? If so, then we know what kind of player you are, if not... then something beyond "maxing your character" mattered to you and could well do so again.

 

The MMORPG I focused most on and the one I mentioned as inspiration in my first post was Runescape, and no, I never made an alt there. With over 6,000 hours played on my first account (one character per account) I still was not even close to maxing everything out. 

 

That's the beauty of it. Always a goal to reach to beyond the events of the world. I think that's important. Always having personal mountains to climb, not just collective ones. 

 

I have no interest in making alternative characters. When I play an MMO, I am one character in an alternative world, not many. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Could be a nice touch to give an instant training boost to one skill whenever a player ends a game campaign using the same tiered scaling for win/lose/elimination resource rewards use

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