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Fps / Darkfall Aiming Confirmed

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Any pvp game with tabtargeting/aimlock is just not a real pvp game , because it takes away alot of skillrequirements , not just for the person that aims but also for the person being shot at, since this person has no chance to manually dodge.

 

 

Any PvP game with manual aiming/dodging is just not a real role playing game, because it takes away a lot of the character skill requirements. What difference does your characters dexterity score make, when the chance of hitting or dodging is actually based on your real life dexterity? What is the point of building a good character when you can just put a "0" in all your defensive skills because your real-life reactions will offer a better defense?

 

 

 

And the big question: why play a game at all if you just want to test your "true" skill. If you are actually truly good, you should be fighting people in real life, in MMA competitions, otherwise you are just a lame noob using video games to mask your lack of any "real" skill. /s

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Any PvP game with manual aiming/dodging is just not a real role playing game, because it takes away a lot of the character skill requirements. What difference does your characters dexterity score make, when the chance of hitting or dodging is actually based on your real life dexterity? What is the point of building a good character when you can just put a "0" in all your defensive skills because your real-life reactions will offer a better defense?

 

It's not as black and white as you're saying. It's like me saying something along the lines of this: Why would you just want to sit back and let your character do all the work for you? Why even practice and increase your personal skill if you can just make your character stronger.

 

There are many steps and variations in-between letting your character do everything for you and sit back and watch or having to do everything manually without the influence of the progression of a character. In your specific example you could think about things such as increasing the damage output, attack speed, movement speed, total stamina etc. It doesn't mean you auto-win because you still need to do things properly but it gives you an advantage over someone that has lower dexterity.

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 Why would you just want to sit back and let your character do all the work for you? Why even practice and increase your personal skill if you can just make your character stronger.

 

Why wouldn't you want to sit back?  A game is supposed to be fun. I am not going to practice 4 hours ever night just to be competitive.

 

Besides, it's a stupid arbitrary thing to require real-life aiming/dodging skills while everything else is obfuscated.

 

The dude with fast reactions and twitch speed essentially gets a huge bonus in game because of his real life skills.

 

But...

 

The guy who is actually smart and knows a ton of stuff doesn't get any spellcasting or knowledge skill bonuses in game.

 

The guy who works out a lot and can bench 400 lbs doesn't get a strength or damage bonus in game.

 

The really big tough guy doesn't get any hp or endurance bonuses in game.

The guy who jogs 3 miles every morning doesn't get any run speed buff in game.

 

Honestly it just bugs me that certain people act like having real life twitch reaction skills should translate directly into in-game benefits, even though all other real-life skills are ignored. You want the game to be all about the thing you are good at, but forget everything else, those things shouldn't matter.

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People talking about animation lock being the worst thing in combat have no idea what they are talking about. It creates a system that makes you think about what you are doing directly in line with the whole strategic game play they are aiming for. You can't just spam skills like a mad man slapping your keyboard with an animation lock. I would rather have animation lock then have people strafing around, bunny hopping and smashing out as many skills as they possibly can in the least amount of time as possible with no real thought process.

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Please no Darkfall combat :( It felt bad. I think Tera or GW2 is a perfect combination of both. 

EDIT: Also animationlock isn't a problem. Tera had tons of animation lock and the combat still felt very fluid and fast, especially with some attackspeed.

Edited by Fuslen

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I doubt it'll ever become that much similar to Darkfall Online in terms of raw fps skill and twitchyness...They would never be bold enough to unleash it in even half the scale that DFO did.

 

But nevertheless this is still a step in the right direction towards raising the skill ceiling.

Edited by Kaminaxus

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Another thing I disagree with however is with your statement about the combat style not being related to the client and server performance, this is completely false. The server load will be a lot heavier if it needs to calculate the projectiles trajectories/impact as well instead of just calculate whether you're close enough to a target or not to execute an ability like in World of Warcraft.

 

You're not wrong here, FPS games do require more server-client communications. My point however was that the key difference lies within the efficiency of the code created by programmers, and any issues are not inherently the fault of the combat design.

 

As for GW2, a lot of people enjoy it because the combat in that game is actually built upon FPS controls. You might not realise it but you can actually play GW2 as an FPS, it's just that they added tab targeting on top of it. This along with animations and movement is why GW2 combat feels much more fluid than a standard tab targeting MMO such as WoW.

 

Edit: Now in a game like Elder Scrolls Online they did the opposite: They created a tab-targeting MMO and added simulated FPS effects on top of it. The result is very obvious to anyone who played both games.

Edited by Raap

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You're not wrong here, FPS games do require more server-client communications. My point however was that the key difference lies within the efficiency of the code created by programmers, and any issues are not inherently the fault of the combat design.

 

As for GW2, a lot of people enjoy it because the combat in that game is actually built upon FPS controls. You might not realise it but you can actually play GW2 as an FPS, it's just that they added tab targeting on top of it. This along with animations and movement is why GW2 combat feels much more fluid than a standard tab targeting MMO such as WoW.

 

Oh for sure, you're right about that. It was hard for me to interpret if you really thought it wasn't more stressful for the server or that you were just trying to point out the things that you just did.

 

I've enjoyed World of Warcraft for a decent amount of time as well but after experiencing FPS aiming it's hard to go back haha. Guild Wars  had more interesting combat mechanics I think as well than WoW but it had too many flaws for me to enjoy. No real incentive to do anything PvP wise, no Guild Wars, no Guild Hall, no spectator mode for tournaments and the tedious fight to survive AKA downed system turned me off. Things might have changed though, I haven't touched it for 2+ years or so.

 

Why wouldn't you want to sit back?  A game is supposed to be fun. I am not going to practice 4 hours ever night just to be competitive.

 

Besides, it's a stupid arbitrary thing to require real-life aiming/dodging skills while everything else is obfuscated.

 

The dude with fast reactions and twitch speed essentially gets a huge bonus in game because of his real life skills.

 

But...

 

The guy who is actually smart and knows a ton of stuff doesn't get any spellcasting or knowledge skill bonuses in game.

 

The guy who works out a lot and can bench 400 lbs doesn't get a strength or damage bonus in game.

 

The really big tough guy doesn't get any hp or endurance bonuses in game.

The guy who jogs 3 miles every morning doesn't get any run speed buff in game.

 

Honestly it just bugs me that certain people act like having real life twitch reaction skills should translate directly into in-game benefits, even though all other real-life skills are ignored. You want the game to be all about the thing you are good at, but forget everything else, those things shouldn't matter.

 

Seriously? What might be fun for you might not be fun for me. Sitting back and letting my character battle it out with my opponent is not what I would consider as being fun. You have turn based games for that, this is a real time game which is obvious by looking at the in-game footage.

 

It's interesting how you have such a big hate for reflexes and accuracy which you classify as a real life skill but knowledge on the other hand you do not classify as such. Guess what? Everything you do within the game is influences by in real life skills including knowledge. Someone with developed reflexes can still lose fights if he doesn't use his abilities in the most efficient way. That's where knowledge shines. Another thing is teamwork or strategical knowledge.

 

In order to dominate you should have a mixture of all of these things in my opinion.

Edited by timetraveler

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FPS aiming or bust.

 

Sorry but I'm putting on my haterade pants right now.

 

 

A few things:

Animation locks kill gameplay.  Sure you have to time things, but it makes the gameplay feel cheesy and as if its 'playing itself'

 

I cannot believe the FAQ says "we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing)." 

>>What are we trying to create here?  Watching the KS video, I understand Gordon might be getting a little bit older and wants to play his brain-child game too but seriously come'on. What is wrong with all these newb-carebears not wanting to actually have to AIM a damn mouse at a target!?!  You have an entire eternal kingdom all to yourselves to hide in.  Dont make the entire game a dumb button smashing skill fest like Wild-crap where you cant even see the ground anymore because its turned into a 'light up floor'

 

Anyone who calls Darkfall <> Quake is a complete noob who understands nothing about either game. Now please shutup and stop ruining more MMo's before we all go back to AOL chatroom's and sh***y MUDs'

 

 

See you

 

Completely agree. Based on some of the replies in this thread it seems like Crowfall has attracted more old people with awful mouse-hand-eye-coordination than a retirement home.

Edited by Kaminaxus

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Fps / Darkfall Aiming Confirmed
 
Oh my, how sexy.  Glad to see this being worked on.
 

 

People talking about animation lock being the worst thing in combat have no idea what they are talking about. It creates a system that makes you think about what you are doing directly in line with the whole strategic game play they are aiming for. You can't just spam skills like a mad man slapping your keyboard with an animation lock. I would rather have animation lock then have people strafing around, bunny hopping and smashing out as many skills as they possibly can in the least amount of time as possible with no real thought process.

 

I do not have a lot of experience with animation locking, but I share the same sentiment.  I feel that animation locking can make the combat much more reasonable without actually making it extremely slow or easy to dodge your attacks.

 

I'd be in favor of small animation locks to tone down "button mashing" so players that use skills wisely and with good timing can capitalize on a player that carelessly spams his skills.  Crowfall is already hinting at being a game of limited resources and careful decision making with the implementation of the Hunger and Warmth mechanics.  Sacrificing safety to mount an offensive when in combat should be a trade off, and not just, lol I'm going to spin x5.

 

Animation locks will also serve to balance kiting when archers have to stand in place to shoot an arrow, in order to kite you will have to use 2+ players which take turns shooting rather than 1 character just walking backwards while spamming his ranged attack.  Melee must rule, and ranged strength should remain as a complement to melee strength.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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I used to play a game called Fantasy Earth Zero. It was a strategic, third person, 50v50 PvP game with free, high skill aim and heavy, heavy animation locking. I'm talking 1-3 second locks on every attack. It was one of the best mass PvP experiences I've ever had.

 

Now I'm not saying Crowfall should have extreme animation locking, just saying that it's possible to have it in large scale PvP.

 

Ok bud, you defiantly have no idea what a "mass PVP experience" is.

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Completely agree. Based on some of the replies in this thread it seems like Crowfall has attracted more old people with awful mouse-hand-eye-coordination than a retirement home.

 

I feel somewhat guilty for liking this post because I tend to lean towards more serious and in-depth discussions but this post made me laugh several times in real life so I had the need to +1 this.

Edited by timetraveler

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Ok bud, you defiantly have no idea what a "mass PVP experience" is.

I've played darkfall, MO, daoc, lineage 2, wildstar, tera etc etc etc. I've experienced the massive battles in those games. TERA has the best combat out of all of them for the thinking man. Someone that doesn't want combat to be a spam fest yet still requires twitch skills.

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Keeping in mind that they are still very very early in development and there is massive room for redesign and polish.

 

I do like what they have so far.

 

I am 100% against having locked animations since they kill you in pvp games in my experience, and they make combat a little less fun.

 

Telegraphing is good, but it needs to be a bit subtle, not extremely easy, but not impossibly hard.

 

 

But I tend to be a person who prefers smooth functional combat, over good looking animations. I understand both sides of it though, and for some people having good looking animations is important, if your going to spend hours looking at skill animations, it helps if they look nice.

 

I'm hoping the dev's can find a good middle ground and make an all around functional good looking system by launch.

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I really love the debates going on here, people are pretty passionate. I played early Darkfall, and it was too twitchy for me. Also it was boring just circle strafing and swinging away as fast as you could.

 

I feel like GW2 has some of the best combat to date, all of the skills are useful in one way or another, positioning matters, and many skills can be interrupted/dodged giving it enough of a twitch feel. Also the fact that casting spells doesn't root you adds a nice flow to the combat. I really feel its a good mix of TERA style stratigic combat and 'twitchy' skill based DF combat.

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Being from a Quake background, I don't find Darkfall's combat too much to handle, but it is way too twitchy for any action RPG. For the health of the game, there is no way they should add anything remotely close to that. It would set the difficulty curve beyond most people. If anything ruined the chances of Darkfall's success, it was the combat. However, on the other end is TERA and its animation locking is too frustrating for anyone who really enjoys action games. If you look up almost any discussion of TERA's combat, you will ultimately see people giving that reason why they won't play it. Animation locking needs to stay in fighting games. For everything Guild Wars 2 did wrong, one of the things they did right for the most part was their animation and movement, it flowed well.

Edited by frozenshadow

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I really love the debates going on here, people are pretty passionate. I played early Darkfall, and it was too twitchy for me. Also it was boring just circle strafing and swinging away as fast as you could.

 

I feel like GW2 has some of the best combat to date, all of the skills are useful in one way or another, positioning matters, and many skills can be interrupted/dodged giving it enough of a twitch feel. Also the fact that casting spells doesn't root you adds a nice flow to the combat. I really feel its a good mix of TERA style stratigic combat and 'twitchy' skill based DF combat.

Pretty much what I been trying to say, it's a nice middle ground. Drop the tab target that GW2 added ( the system doesn't need it ) maybe leave a soft target option and add a cross hair. ( Please for the love of god let us customize recuticle.

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I am 100% against having locked animations since they kill you in pvp games in my experience

 

That is the whole point of having animation locks!!! in addition to slowing down combat a little.

 

Animation locks make players suffer for bad decisions, the way it should be! If you make a bad decision and swing your sword in the wrong direction or at the wrong time, it misses or is dodged then you should suffer the consequences! namely a hammer to the face in the form a counter-attack. This is why we want animation locks, to make combat harder and more tactical.

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That is the whole point of having animation locks!!! in addition to slowing down combat a little.

 

Animation locks make players suffer for bad decisions, the way it should be! If you make a bad decision and swing your sword in the wrong direction or at the wrong time, it misses or is dodged then you should suffer the consequences! namely a hammer to the face in the form a counter-attack. This is why we want animation locks, to make combat harder and more tactical.

Explain to me why not having animation locks doesn't make a player pay for a bad decision as well? In both I see both getting a hammer to the face for a bad decision, one is just less annoying.

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What difference does your characters dexterity score make, when the chance of hitting or dodging is actually based on your real life dexterity? What is the point of building a good character when you can just put a "0" in all your defensive skills because your real-life reactions will offer a better defense?

 

 

I most certainly hope that real life reactions offer better defenses. I'd prefer that gear gives you next to zero actual defenses beyond the basic +armor stat on your gear to make you take less damage when you do get hit (gear needs to mean some thing other than moar deeps). This is how TERA does it and it's much more fun - active, skill-based defenses. They actually don't have any block/dodge/evade stats on gear in that game. I hope in Crowfall, Dexterity doesn't give you any passive RNG based evasion and hopefully we don't have anything similar for dodging, parrying, etc. Maybe for players with higher Dexterity, allow them to dodge more often or something. But avoiding an attack should be skill based - proper usage of your manual dodge or your block button. 

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