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Adding more utility to Vindicators and Templars in General


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Hi,

I've played the templar arch-types exclusively since I start in pre-alpha and I feel both Fury and Paladin have basic utility atm.  Could be better?  Probably yes, but I know for the roles they have they can perform it some degree.  Vindicators, not so much, I spend more time chasing a fight then actually participating in it.   I'm not going to hash to death the issues, we all know what they are.  Here are some solutions, some apply to all templars, some solely to vindicators.

1) PIP ON EVERY SWING (all templars)  - We all know the issues with pip starvation (minus paladin) with this class.   When we also look at the uptime we have on foes the current system is just not good.   If we swing 2 times and miss the third = no pip.  Doesn't make sense.  Give us a pip a swing.

2) Vindicator DL PROCS AOE SLOW (vindicator only) -  DL is such a wasted element of a vindicator's playbook.  Often it only works in PvE.  I run in drop it and everyone just runs off to fight else where and I'm left holding the 'pip bill'.   So this does 3 things, it keeps the enemy in range so the vindicator can uptime, allows your more vulnerable healers/dps to get away/builds pips.  

3) ALL DL LOSE THE PIP DRAIN (all templars) -  I don't mind the idea but it was too costly a idea when fights move too dynamically for this to be a practical cost.

4) ADD BACK A SIN USING MECHANIC (all templars) - Back in the day when we have access to prosecute(adjudicator disc), this was a perfect marriage of stacking and consuming.  In efforts of adding cross-class synergy they bjorked it.  I think this is very much a wasted opportunity.    For vindicators it could be a fire dmg + DOT base on stacks, for Paladins it could a Dmg reducer effect and for Fury it could a crazy AoE dmg push and knockdown (based on stacks - like Elken headbutt).   I'm sure ACE can come up with better ones than me.

5) HAMMER (or SWORD) of WRATH (vindicators only) - This one I left vindicators only because I felt like one of the role for vindicators could be to finish off the fleeing enemies (righteous judgement lol).   Ret Paladins had the same issue with finishing an opponent so the Hammer of Wrath was added.  It was a simply execute that hit with holy power.  It was only useful once an enemy was like 30%.   However, it was insta-cast and had a good range.  We'd have to have better aim since this isn't tab targeting but I'd love a variation of this on vindicators. 

6) ADD BACK THE DL HEAL BUT HEAL ONLY SELF (vindicators only) -  I know, I know it was face melting time before so we had to pay something but now it's functioning as per usual, a 500hp hit non-crit every 3-4 secs is well a little meh.  So....give me back my paultry 200 hps a tick but make it only heal me.  I'm not suppose to be a healer anyways, i'm suppose to a crazy zealot with a 2handed sword.    Not great buff to survivability but something at least.

7) FIRE WEAKNESS STACKABLE DEBUFF (all templars)-  I felt like adding this to the DL addition above but I wanted to keep it separate.  I like the idea of a vindicator getting scarier and scarier the longer you decide to engage it.  I'm wondering if this stacking debuff could be added to the DL but i'd like to see it so the more you get hit by DL the more susceptible to fire you become.  Give it like a 25-30% increased fire damage at full stacks (3 -10%).   

 

So there's some ideas guys.  I hope you read this and take some ideas like this into consideration.  I want this class to be a great class but not an OP one.  If only 1-2 of these get implemented (especially for vindicators) I feel we'd be a much better place.

Thanks for reading, I know it's long,

Vesperre

 

 

 

 

Edited by Vesperre
incomplete
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  • Vesperre changed the title to Adding more utility to Vindicators and Templars in General

3) should be implemented across all Templars and Paladins talent becomes some type of heal enhancement. 

Other thing I would like to see is the PIP requirement on abilities to scale correctly compared to other classes.  Templars are usually paying 20-40% per ability compared to other classes.

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I've played Templar quite a bit, and never really had Combo Point issues if I place my Divine Lights intelligently. Templars are gonna struggle in smaller group fights >10, but as fights scale up, the class gets significantly better, 

 

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Considering they are quite frequent in the field, in the guilds with extensive game knowledge, I doubt they need more buffs.

With 6.200 everything gets reworked in terms of talents and disciplines - so any proper discussion should be postponed.

Edited by Prometeu

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4 hours ago, Prometeu said:

Considering they are quite frequent in the field, in the guilds with extensive game knowledge, I doubt they need more buffs.

With 6.200 everything gets reworked in terms of talents and disciplines - so any proper discussion should be postponed.

Trying to pre-empt 6.2 while it's still plastic/liquid currency.  Throwing out some ideas for discussion and developers.  I'd be happy if 1 -2 of these were considered and tested.  

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On 10/1/2020 at 6:35 PM, Vesperre said:

Hi,

I've played the templar arch-types exclusively since I start in pre-alpha and I feel both Fury and Paladin have basic utility atm.  Could be better?  Probably yes, but I know for the roles they have they can perform it some degree.  Vindicators, not so much, I spend more time chasing a fight then actually participating in it.   I'm not going to hash to death the issues, we all know what they are.  Here are some solutions, some apply to all templars, some solely to vindicators.

1) PIP ON EVERY SWING (all templars)  - We all know the issues with pip starvation (minus paladin) with this class.   When we also look at the uptime we have on foes the current system is just not good.   If we swing 2 times and miss the third = no pip.  Doesn't make sense.  Give us a pip a swing.

2) Vindicator DL PROCS AOE SLOW (vindicator only) -  DL is such a wasted element of a vindicator's playbook.  Often it only works in PvE.  I run in drop it and everyone just runs off to fight else where and I'm left holding the 'pip bill'.   So this does 3 things, it keeps the enemy in range so the vindicator can uptime, allows your more vulnerable healers/dps to get away/builds pips.  

3) ALL DL LOSE THE PIP DRAIN (all templars) -  I don't mind the idea but it was too costly a idea when fights move too dynamically for this to be a practical cost.

4) ADD BACK A SIN USING MECHANIC (all templars) - Back in the day when we have access to prosecute(adjudicator disc), this was a perfect marriage of stacking and consuming.  In efforts of adding cross-class synergy they bjorked it.  I think this is very much a wasted opportunity.    For vindicators it could be a fire dmg + DOT base on stacks, for Paladins it could a Dmg reducer effect and for Fury it could a crazy AoE dmg push and knockdown (based on stacks - like Elken headbutt).   I'm sure ACE can come up with better ones than me.

5) HAMMER (or SWORD) of WRATH (vindicators only) - This one I left vindicators only because I felt like one of the role for vindicators could be to finish off the fleeing enemies (righteous judgement lol).   Ret Paladins had the same issue with finishing an opponent so the Hammer of Wrath was added.  It was a simply execute that hit with holy power.  It was only useful once an enemy was like 30%.   However, it was insta-cast and had a good range.  We'd have to have better aim since this isn't tab targeting but I'd love a variation of this on vindicators. 

6) ADD BACK THE DL HEAL BUT HEAL ONLY SELF (vindicators only) -  I know, I know it was face melting time before so we had to pay something but now it's functioning as per usual, a 500hp hit non-crit every 3-4 secs is well a little meh.  So....give me back my paultry 200 hps a tick but make it only heal me.  I'm not suppose to be a healer anyways, i'm suppose to a crazy zealot with a 2handed sword.    Not great buff to survivability but something at least.

7) FIRE WEAKNESS STACKABLE DEBUFF (all templars)-  I felt like adding this to the DL addition above but I wanted to keep it separate.  I like the idea of a vindicator getting scarier and scarier the longer you decide to engage it.  I'm wondering if this stacking debuff could be added to the DL but i'd like to see it so the more you get hit by DL the more susceptible to fire you become.  Give it like a 25-30% increased fire damage at full stacks (3 -10%).   

 

So there's some ideas guys.  I hope you read this and take some ideas like this into consideration.  I want this class to be a great class but not an OP one.  If only 1-2 of these get implemented (especially for vindicators) I feel we'd be a much better place.

Thanks for reading, I know it's long,

Vesperre

 

 

 

 

DL-- id like to see a root affixed to this; or have DL for a Vindicator NOT BE A DOT, rather all upfront damage.

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2 hours ago, Zatch said:

This would be insanely op. 

how is it any different than a ranger hitting you from 65 m away for 1800?  or a druid using emitter? or a confessor hitting you for 2300 from 45 m away, the list goes on.

Edited by Gwaehir
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6 hours ago, Gwaehir said:

how is it any different than a ranger hitting you from 65 m away for 1800?  or a druid using emitter? or a confessor hitting you for 2300 from 45 m away, the list goes on.

because if your tics are around 1k+ and its all upfront you might as well tell the person they have no chance once Divine is dropped.

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9 hours ago, Gwaehir said:

how is it any different than a ranger hitting you from 65 m away for 1800?  or a druid using emitter? or a confessor hitting you for 2300 from 45 m away, the list goes on.

High damage and a root all on a class that has a 50% flat damage reduction and execute. I wonder how that could ever be insanely broken. 

Yes range does damage from range, but all of those classes are squishy. The ability for melee piles to close the gap isn't an issue in current Meta. If this wasn't the case everyone would run exclusively range dps/characters. 

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On 10/3/2020 at 5:36 PM, MrErad said:

because if your tics are around 1k+ and its all upfront you might as well tell the person they have no chance once Divine is dropped.

in the scenario I proposed you wouldn't do the sum of the ticks now-- you would do a flat 2kish

 

in response to Zatch

the Vindicator is one of the most squish classes out there.

And how does the Vindicator have 50% damage reduction?  parry?  that doenst work on range dps.  In group pvp you have zero idea where that damage is coming from.

Unless the vindicator has a healer tied to his hip pocket the lisf of a vindicator is tough in large scale pvp.

 

Everything you nay-sayed above is already given to another class-- the pit fighter.  how do you justify the damage that class does with its huge surviveabilty?

 

why cant vindicator be like that?

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/5/2020 at 4:23 PM, Gwaehir said:

in the scenario I proposed you wouldn't do the sum of the ticks now-- you would do a flat 2kish

 

in response to Zatch

the Vindicator is one of the most squish classes out there.

And how does the Vindicator have 50% damage reduction?  parry?  that doenst work on range dps.  In group pvp you have zero idea where that damage is coming from.

Unless the vindicator has a healer tied to his hip pocket the lisf of a vindicator is tough in large scale pvp.

 

Everything you nay-sayed above is already given to another class-- the pit fighter.  how do you justify the damage that class does with its huge surviveabilty?

 

why cant vindicator be like that?

 

 

 

Precisely my point.  Either other classes are insanely broken or our sub class is severely underpowered or poorly thought thru.  As I said, I don't subscribe to a class only played 5% of the time b/c of Fort/Keep Windows.  IT's a waste of a char slot to be honest.

Edited by Fairlight
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