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A Brief Look at the Ranger - Talent Tree


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Today in the Crowfall October Community Livestream, J. Todd Coleman (Creative Director) announced an exciting enhancement to the player specialization system. “Led by the Design team, this enhancement was initiated based on player feedback. We wanted to give players greater diversity through expanded options with the trade-off being, hard choices.” The goal of this update was to give players the ability to create more differentiated and nuanced characters by adding increased choices that give rise to a deeper layering of talents, skills, and abilities that add up to a truly unique character profile.

 

 

Watch the October Livestream here

A Brief Look at the Ranger - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Confessor - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Assassin - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Knight - Talent Tree

Streamfall Podcast Reveal - Knight

A Brief Look at the Duelist - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Champion - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Myrmidon - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Cleric - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Frostweaver - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Druid - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Templar - Talent Tree

 

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

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So I was excited until I dove deeper into this. I am worried that we still wont have any "hard choices" or if we do, it will be very few. In the image above, red circles represent forced choices. Assu

Today in the Crowfall October Community Livestream, J. Todd Coleman (Creative Director) announced an exciting enhancement to the player specialization system. “Led by the Design team, this enhancement

Yes, there will be more 😃 

Good catch @Groovin

The biggest problem I have with this is that since the capstones and promotions are so strong, you're going to want to take them which locks you into 9 talents minimum - leaving you with little customization. That plus the tree flowing left to right also causes a problem with build flexibility in talents.

Obviously a lot of the juice is hidden within the new discipline overhaul and how they are sorted into domains.  There's a chance that the domains leave a lot of flexibility in builds and you aren't going to min max-lock yourself into some of these builds based solely on promo class (like in the current meta). I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. This overhaul DOES looks like an improvement, but not the type of flexibility we may have been expecting in these trees.

My gut is telling me that weaving across the trees or taking strange pathing to reach your promo is likely bad at least in Ranger, and you'll mostly be staying in your lane for talents with a few flexible points. I'm willing to be surprised, and the meta will CERTAINLY be changed, but this probably isn't the intense levels of customization we were hoping for.

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So I was excited until I dove deeper into this. I am worried that we still wont have any "hard choices" or if we do, it will be very few. In the image above, red circles represent forced choices. Assuming you are going for a capstone, (and if they will be as good as you say I don't think it is a choice not to) 4 of our 15 points are forced. Down to 11 points. We only get 2 options once we choose a promotion. Spend 1 point or spend 2 points. If these talents are meant to be your promotion's bread and butter, you really do not have a choice and take both. Down to 9 points. Nodes linked by green represent a choice that has to be made between the linked nodes. We have to make a choice between 2 nodes, a 2nd choice between 2 nodes, a 3rd choice between 2 nodes, a 4th choice between 2 nodes, and a 5th choice between 2 nodes. This leaves us 5 choices to sprinkle between a domain and the rest of the stuff in the tree.

You have not added any choice within a promotion. It seems like all Archers will be 1 way, all Brigands will be 1 way, all Wardens will be one way. From what we can tell from the preview of the new Major Disc, there is not much hope there that a set of Major Discs can change the way a class plays. 2 abilities, 2 passives and some stats will not make that large a difference between 1 archer to another. I know there are 109 other majors I have yet to see so I remain hopeful that I am wrong here about runes.

 

What it seems like you have done though, is make it so that all 3 promotions are viable for each class, and that is actually really awesome. Before if you wanted to play a Ranger, you were an archer, if you wanted to play a Cleric, you were a crusader. There was no choice because the other specs were just awful. Hopefully you have made all the promotions viable now. That still does not make for 'hard choices'.

Choosing if I want to play an Archer or a Brigand is not a choice. Those are different characters. We do not play the class, we play the promotion.

When making a character, we are not thinking, "Do I want my Ranger to be an Archer or a Brigand?". We go, "I am going to make an Archer. How should I make an Archer?".

And it does not seem like there will be very many impactful choices once I've decided what I am going to play.

Edited by Yoink

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3 minutes ago, Yoink said:

So I was excited until I dove deeper into this. I am worried that we still wont have any "hard choices" or if we do, it will be very few. In the image above, red circles represent forced choices. Assuming you are going for a capstone, (and they will be the so good I don't think it is a choice not to) 4 of our 15 points are forced. Down to 11 points.

I think the hard choices are getting there. Assuming you 100% must spend 5 points to unlock Promotion, all three upgrades and Domain. You will then have 10 points to spend among the 17 nodes leading to promotions. Perhaps they could make the "route" to promotions longer than 6 nodes at it's shortest, or they could branch things off more. Either way I think that's a lot easier now that 90% of the revamp is done.

 

At the very least, improvements to promotion classes and the new layer of locking into a single domain are an improvement over the previous system. They may simply need to make the "routes" a bit tougher.

 

 

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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4 minutes ago, Ranik said:

Assuming you 100% must spend 5 points to unlock Promotion, all three upgrades and Domain. You will then have 10 points to spend among the 17 nodes leading to promotions.

2 of these are forced. You have to take the first node and you have to take the last node before promotion.

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@ACE-TiggsWould it be possible for more articles to come out outlying new talents trees (especially around underplayed classes with changes)? I think it would do a lot for our perceptions if we saw a class like Champion or Confessor that has far less distinct promotion trees, and therefore slightly more ambiguous routes to promotion classes?

I think we're all really excited but we need more to chew on around these changes to avoid spiraling into madness.

Edited by galvia
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It seems like there are still not enough choices in this tree. Player still will be forced to pick up a class and subclass. But, at the same time, the new system looks more deep than the current one, for sure.

We'll see how it works.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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3 hours ago, galvia said:

I'm willing to be surprised, and the meta will CERTAINLY be changed, but this probably isn't the intense levels of customization we were hoping for.

They'll never be able to match my hopes and expectations and I'm okay with that if the system works and offers more viable options then before. This is an area of games that usually is part of expansions and future development. This new version at least gives me hope for the launch version being worthwhile.

 


 

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4 hours ago, Yoink said:

And it does not seem like there will be very many impactful choices once I've decided what I am going to play.

That is how it usually works?

If I've decided I'm going to play XYZ, I build towards it, I'm not going to train willy nilly just because I can. Almost always a clear path to what is "best" for any given XYZ.

Shelley mentioned "~if something isn't a good option, why is it in the game" and I hope we don't see the same relatively useless/bad options but repackaged where the choices aren't real.

I'm doubting choosing A over B is going to be massive, but that's pretty hard to do with a MMO like this. At least they are starting somewhere that has a better path towards future development (from what I've seen so far).

Something missing compared to a game like Shadowbane is variety of play changers. JTC likes to list a handful of Disciplines and almost always tosses in Were-something when talking Shadowbane, but we don't have such things that really change how a class/character plays at that layer.

Shapeshifting, pets, weapon unlocks, tracking, impact of stats and other role changers would add a lot of variety. Maybe we'll see some of that with 6.2? Doubtful. Again, something to add down the line and this system seems more welcoming to it.

Actually surprised they didn't up the Major Disc slots to match what appears to be fewer options per Major. Shadowbane had Disc with 2+ items, but was up to 4 Disciplines I believe (not a SB expert).

If they just split the current Majors across more runes, that will just be like splitting the classes with promos. Going from having it all to a fraction isn't more fun for those experienced with both. It does force more build diversity because we can't have our cake, cupcake, ice cream and eat them all at the same time. Meta is likely to shift more frequently by default and with changes/additions over time.

Believe some were expecting them expanding on the current system by offering countless more disc/power/talent/stat options, but seems unreasonable currently. What they seem to have done is provide a system that offers more ways to create higher quality specialized builds instead of a few viable options that had everything and the kitchen sink.

When is 6.2!?!?!😩

Edited by APE

 


 

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The only difference between the current talent trees in 6.1 and 6.2 is the combined stats and smaller tree. While I like that there is a pass on the underused specializations, the lack of anything new is abysmal. While I realize creating new animations/take take significant work hours, the illusion of customization only hurts Crowfall in the longrun. You can tout that you have X number of powers, but if they're all redundant, what's  the point?

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@galvia  @Yoink @APE

 

For sake of argument and clearer feedback for the devs, What would all of you suggest to modify the new trees? What options or combination of options do you think would help and address your concerns? And why?

 

  • A: More branching paths.
  • B: More than one "must take" nodes. (Less chokepoints at start and pre-promotion)
  • C: A longer Left-> Right progression. 
  • D: More Lockout choices. (Like Promotion classes & Domain) 
  • E: More long Route "special unlocks" 
  • F: Other:_____________________

 

 

Ideally, we'd want the most juice for the easiest squeeze. So I was thinking how it would be possible to add more tough choices by adding only 2-5 nodes. It can help if we give them short, concrete suggestions rather than long posts. So thoughts?

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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5 hours ago, APE said:
9 hours ago, Yoink said:

And it does not seem like there will be very many impactful choices once I've decided what I am going to play.

That is how it usually works?

Exactly. But that is not what we were told we were getting. If there goal was to emulate the choices/diversity you had in character building akin to Shadowbane, they have not done that. Not even close.

What they might have done, is made all 33 promotions viable. If they did manage to, that is amazing. It needed to be done. But this does not make character building any more interesting or deep. It just made it so that more promotions are viable. This was a balance pass.

My best guess is there was a disconnect between what we (the SB community, that was reached out to for input on character building) wanted and what ACE understood that to mean. I believe that ACE thinks since you can be a Ranger-Archer, Ranger-Brigand, Ranger-Warden, that you have build diversity. That is 3 different rangers that all play differently I guess.

But again, we don't think, "I want to be a Ranger." We think, "I want to be an Archer." or "I want to be a Brigand." And this is where the choices basically end. Once you say, "I am going to make an Archer" 6 of your 15 talent points are set, 7 if choosing a domain proves to be a non-choice. That leaves us with 8 more points. 4 of those points are a choice between only 2 talents and then we have 4 points to fill in the 12 remaining talents. Now these might be hard choices, if they are all good, but nothing is going to make you any different than another Archer that took 4 different stats or abilities. Nothing in there is going to change what the character does or how it plays. If there was any hope for that in character creation it was going to be in the Discs you choose. If we use the example they posted of Banshee, they gutted the Discs. I really hope this isn't the case as there are a lot of unseen discs but it is hard to imagine that Discs will be build-defining.

Edited by Yoink

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7XnCh74.jpg

 

 

"Too many chokepoints" .... Ok lets say the nodes on the red bands offer the same number of abilities but offer different options entirely and are all set as must choose only one of these.

 

The new first nodes may allow you to "Dip out" and sacrifice one of your two "Core class" starter abilitys to instead gain another class ability or Disc ability for a bit of early cross-class diversity.

 

The new Pre-promotion nodes on the outside would allow you to alter your ultimate in some way instead of getting a new ability + stat in the middle.

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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