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Knight 6.2 - Discussion


Arkade
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We got the reveal of the 6.2 knight talent tree, so I thought I would create a thread where we can discuss the potential, both good and bad. I'll start by listing the things that haven't changed:

  • Block
  • Shield Swipe
  • Onslaught
  • Noble Blood
  • Pursuit
  • Shield Bash
  • Resolve

The mechanics for these abilities remain the same, and the promotion modifications to these abilities are mostly unchanged as well. I'm disappointed that Noble Blood is still a combo, and some improvements to Onslaught would have been nice (cost reduction and Twin Assault not being terrible). I had hoped that Resolve might be changed as well. At the very least, allowing it to activate when we are below 20%, and not just when we drop below 20%, would have been an improvement. It appears that the Shield Slam ability has been removed. It won't be missed.

It seems like we may have lost the long cooldown reduction talent. There are some stat bundles which weren't covered. We can hope it's in one of those. 

Stat Bundles - We were only shown 2 of these, but my assumption is that most of the stat talents from 6.1 have been bundled. The health regeneration may be gone, which no one cared about, but it seems they didn't replace it with anything. The Vitality stat bundle giving only 450 HP is lame. It's not really a bundle if there's only 1 stat. No one will take it over the Martial Weaponry bundle, which gives +9 weapon damage and +75 attack power.

There are 4 stat bundles in the base tree that we weren't shown, but based on the icons, we can guess what sort of stats they include. The one on the top row is likely crit chance and crit damage. The one with the winged boot icon is likely mounted movement speed, and maybe long cooldown reduction?. The one with the triangle icon probably increases stamina, and maybe energy and attack power as well. And the one on the bottom row likely increases physical resistance. Maybe the health regen got rolled into that one. 

Each promotion also has a stat bundle. I would assume that these are simply the stats from the 6.1 trees that aren't already accounted for in the promotion nodes. For Swordsman, that should include 6% crit chance and 10% slashing bonus and cap. For Sentinel, 15% power efficiency and cap, 10% crushing damage bonus and cap, and 18% hard crowd control. For Secutor, 4.5% personal damage modifier, 10% crushing damage bonus and cap, and 10% final mitigation cap.

Retribution Slash - I believe this ability was pulled from the Blade Master discipline. Assuming it is still the same, it does 133 + 133% weapon damage and gives 20% retribution for 15 seconds. 

Retribution has always kind of sucked. I'm hoping that they have made changes to the way it works, to make a retribution build worthwhile. We used to be able to add small amounts of retribution via armor, but that was removed, along with other things like lifesteal. We were told that these things would be folded into disciplines, so maybe there will be major and/or minor discs which increase retribution.

The biggest problem with retribution has always been the way the damage is calculated. The damage is based on the final damage done to the caster, post-mitigation. So as you improve your armor, you are making retribution worse. And if you are mitigating 70% while blocking, you are also reducing your retribution damage by 70%.

Retribution damage needs to be calculated pre-mitigation. 

Redirected Strikes - This ability is granted by the Secutor promotion and increases your damage modifier and grants a Retribution buff. This is obviously meant to work in conjunction with Retribution Slash, though we don't know how much of a buff it gives, and again, it won't matter much if the way retribution is calculated hasn't changed.

Revenge - This ability is also granted by Secutor, and gives a damage bonus that increases for each time you are hit. According to Rhea, this stacks with the damage bonus from blocking big hits. We don't know how much bonus we get per stack, but my guess would be something like 2%. The description says that it increases up to a cap, but we have no idea what the cap is, if it is different than the Damage Bonus cap, or how it might affect the cap itself. Maybe the cap on this buff is a 20% damage increase and it also increases the Damage Bonus cap by 20%. 

Endurance - Finally, Knights get some sustainability. Every time we apply a CC, we get healed. This would seem to synergize really well with the Sentinel promotion, but before I get to that, I have some questions regarding this ability. Rhea suggested that this passive will heal for each target CCed.

The question, however, is does the healing scale at all with support power and healing bonus? I would hope so, but I'm expecting to be disappointed. We also don't know how much it heals for per CC. My guess is that it will be similar to the Burning Hatred heal, which heals for 2% of max HP and doesn't scale very well. I would hope that it would be better than that, but we'll see.

Paralyzing Shout - This ability is granted to Sentinels and does an AOE knockdown. This should work well with Endurance. Sentinels also get an AOE root on Noble Blood, a stun on Pursuit, and a root on Chain Attack, all of which should trigger Endurance. We don't know if Paralyzing Shout works in a radius around the knight, or if it's a cone like Noble Blood.

Macemanship - This passive hasn't changed, supposedly, but on live this passive also increases the energy restored by the Echoing Assault talent. That talent appears to be gone, unless it has been rolled into one of the stat bundles. This talent still forces Sentinels to use a mace. I assume the weights on maces haven't changed, and maybe the power efficiency talents have been rolled into the stat bundles, but it's still disappointing to be forced to use a specific weapon, and thereby be further limited in what disciplines we can choose. 

Spiked Shield - All shield attacks now add a bleed. This talent would seem to synergize with the Swordsman promotion, as Chain Attack adds a bleed when you go that route. However, unless they have changed it, different bleeds do not stack. So having a bleed on shield attacks, chain attack, and Obliterate seems like a waste. This is obviously something that will need to be tested. Does each shield attack apply a stacking bleed? Or does it just reset the timer? And do stronger bleeds overwrite it?

Swordsmanship - This Swordsman passive remains the same, and they have given knights Retribution Slash as a base attack, which can be used with this passive. However, the promotion is still forced to use a sword, which might make Blade Master still required. If Blade Master isn't already in the knight class domain, that may affect the domain choice for the promotion. The fact that we have to use a sword will still limit discipline selection. I don't know what disciplines are in each of the domains (war, battle, justice), but if any of them aren't compatible with swords (Adjudicator, Holy Avenger, Knife Grinder, etc.), then they are useless to a swordsman.

Valorous Strike - This is an execute attack, granted to the Swordsman promotion. I assume it counts as a non-shield melee attack, so it will work with Swordsmanship. Maybe this ability makes it so Blade Master isn't a must have. We will have to see the cooldown and cost. This should obviously work with the Finish Him minor, and it could be capable of some serious single target damage.

Juggernaut - This ability adds a stacking mitigation buff each time you are hit. The amount of the buff, and how many times it can stack, are unknown. It is also unknown how this affects the mitigation caps, or even what type of mitigation it is. Does it increase resistances? Does it increase armor? Does it increase Personal Damage Modifier? 

Domains - In the video of the knight reveal, there were things related to domains that Rhea was not allowed to talk about. I thought that domains were just groups of disciplines, but might they be more than that? Maybe each domain gives the player a certain buff or ability. 

All 3 knight promotions get the Justice domain. It seems likely that the Adjudicator and Holy Avenger discs could be part of Justice. Those 2 discs may have been split into 4 discs, and there are probably at least a couple others in the domain, but those specific discs won't be of any use to a Swordsman. Swordsman also get War and Battle. I would expect these to contain some combination of Blade Master, Shield Fighter, Standard Bearer, Shield Breaker, Juggernaut, Escape Artist and Underdog. 

Sentinel gets Justice, Battle and Music. Music is likely Bard and Troubadour. 

Secutor gets Justice, Death and Nature. The Nature ones are probably Naiad, Dryad and Pixie. Death, I don't know. Maybe Plague Lord and Knife Grinder? I'm sure there are new ones, with new powers. Maybe there are some new death ones that are based on druid powers. 

Summary

I think that covers everything. Obviously I have made some assumptions here, and we won't know all the answers until we can test it. I think the changes have the potential to be good, but I also expect there to be some rough spots that need to be ironed out. Hopefully it will hit the test server sooner rather than later, and we can see how well it all works.

 

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8 minutes ago, Arkade said:

 

Endurance - Finally, Knights get some sustainability. Every time we apply a CC, we get healed. This would seem to synergize really well with the Sentinel promotion, but before I get to that, I have some questions regarding this ability. Rhea suggested that this passive will heal for each target CCed.

The question, however, is does the healing scale at all with support power and healing bonus? I would hope so, but I'm expecting to be disappointed. We also don't know how much it heals for per CC. My guess is that it will be similar to the Burning Hatred heal, which heals for 2% of max HP and doesn't scale very well. I would hope that it would be better than that, but we'll see.

 

 

I wouldnt mind seeing it scale from Constitution tbh, generaly con doesnt give enough to be good so this would make stats be more of a choice than dumping everything in str

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Just now, Barab said:

I have never been able to get Noble Blood's root via Sentinel to land.

I just tested it on the test server and it works. It's a 5 meter cone. Isn't melee range 6 meters? Maybe they adjusted the range when they added the new shouts.

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12 minutes ago, veeshan said:

I wouldnt mind seeing it scale from Constitution tbh, generaly con doesnt give enough to be good so this would make stats be more of a choice than dumping everything in str

That might work. I like that better than scaling it as a percentage of HP, depending on how much each point of con adds. 

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36 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Swordsmanship - This Swordsman passive remains the same, and they have given knights Retribution Slash as a base attack, which can be used with this passive. However, the promotion is still forced to use a sword, which might make Blade Master still required. If Blade Master isn't already in the knight class domain, that may affect the domain choice for the promotion. The fact that we have to use a sword will still limit discipline selection. I don't know what disciplines are in each of the domains (war, battle, justice), but if any of them aren't compatible with swords (Adjudicator, Holy Avenger, Knife Grinder, etc.), then they are useless to a swordsman.

Swordsmanship being a wonky occasional buff that only works for 1-2 of your abilities is garbage. It needs to do something better than occasionally buffing my handful of sword based attacks. LMB / Obliterate / Valorous Strike. Have it generate retribution to potentially stack with Retribution slash, have it unlock a new retaliate that bleeds or debuffs everyone nearby, something or anything in addition at least. 

36 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Spiked Shield - All shield attacks now add a bleed. This talent would seem to synergize with the Swordsman promotion, as Chain Attack adds a bleed when you go that route. However, unless they have changed it, different bleeds do not stack. So having a bleed on shield attacks, chain attack, and Obliterate seems like a waste. This is obviously something that will need to be tested. Does each shield attack apply a stacking bleed? Or does it just reset the timer? And do stronger bleeds overwrite it?

This is also one of my points of concern, Bleeds do not stack and the Swordsman is going all in for Bleed. This is not a rework if all of that potential is wasted.

36 minutes ago, Arkade said:

The Vitality stat bundle giving only 450 HP is lame. It's not really a bundle if there's only 1 stat. No one will take it over the Martial Weaponry bundle, which gives +9 weapon damage and +75 attack power.

Yep. Knight stat blocks were straight copied and if anything are even more mediocre than 6.1

 

 

Overall it seems like a straight up copy of 6.1 without any actual understanding of the Class's issues. 

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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7 minutes ago, Ranik said:

Swordsmanship being a wonky occasional buff that only works for 1-2 of your abilities is garbage. It needs to do something better than occasionally buffing my handful of sword based attacks. LMB / Obliterate / Valorous Strike. Have it generate retribution to potentially stack with Retribution slash, have it unlock a new retaliate that bleeds or debuffs everyone nearby, something or anything in addition at least. 

Between LMB, Retribution Slash, Valorous Strike and Obliterate, it might be enough. When they changed Swordsmanship to trigger off LMB, it helped a lot, as triggering it was the biggest issue. We would trigger using obliterate or the blade master abilities, then they would be on cooldown while the buff was up, leaving us only with LMB attacks.

You could always add Blade Master for an extra sword attack, and there may be additional options now. Still, I'm thinking that Valorous Strike will be the Swordsman's bread and butter. I'm guessing that it will be be gated more by cost than cooldown, like the templar execute, but we'll see.

I think the passive will be fine, honestly. My only real concern is that we are forced to use a sword, and that may mean we can't use certain discs that are in the domains available to us. Maybe they don't want us using the mace discs. Prosecute from Adjudicator might do some crazy damage in the right situation. It would be nice though if we could use axes, and there were specific discs related to axes, just to give us more variety. Both swords and axes are slashing damage.

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1 minute ago, Arkade said:

Between LMB, Retribution Slash, Valorous Strike and Obliterate, it might be enough. When they changed Swordsmanship to trigger off LMB, it helped a lot, as triggering it was the biggest issue. We would trigger using obliterate or the blade master abilities, then they would be on cooldown while the buff was up, leaving us only with LMB attacks.

You could always add Blade Master for an extra sword attack, and there may be additional options now. Still, I'm thinking that Valorous Strike will be the Swordsman's bread and butter. I'm guessing that it will be be gated more by cost than cooldown, like the templar execute, but we'll see.

I think the passive will be fine, honestly. My only real concern is that we are forced to use a sword, and that may mean we can't use certain discs that are in the domains available to us. Maybe they don't want us using the mace discs. Prosecute from Adjudicator might do some crazy damage in the right situation. It would be nice though if we could use axes, and there were specific discs related to axes, just to give us more variety. Both swords and axes are slashing damage.

The addition of Retribution slash to that pool may be good if as you said the ability itself is made worthwhile. Previously it was very meh compared to it's other Blademaster abiltities. 

 

Yes, Hopefully Valorous Strike is worth something as well. I just don't see them modifying much considering what they did to the stat nodes, hence me at least trying to post that a quick port doesn't fix much of the existing class issues. 

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

We got the reveal of the 6.2 knight talent tree, so I thought I would create a thread where we can discuss the potential, both good and bad. I'll start by listing the things that haven't changed:

  • Block
  • Shield Swipe
  • Onslaught
  • Noble Blood
  • Pursuit
  • Shield Bash
  • Resolve

The mechanics for these abilities remain the same, and the promotion modifications to these abilities are mostly unchanged as well. I'm disappointed that Noble Blood is still a combo, and some improvements to Onslaught would have been nice (cost reduction and Twin Assault not being terrible). I had hoped that Resolve might be changed as well. At the very least, allowing it to activate when we are below 20%, and not just when we drop below 20%, would have been an improvement. It appears that the Shield Slam ability has been removed. It won't be missed.

It seems like we may have lost the long cooldown reduction talent. There are some stat bundles which weren't covered. We can hope it's in one of those. 

Stat Bundles - We were only shown 2 of these, but my assumption is that most of the stat talents from 6.1 have been bundled. The health regeneration may be gone, which no one cared about, but it seems they didn't replace it with anything. The Vitality stat bundle giving only 450 HP is lame. It's not really a bundle if there's only 1 stat. No one will take it over the Martial Weaponry bundle, which gives +9 weapon damage and +75 attack power.

There are 4 stat bundles in the base tree that we weren't shown, but based on the icons, we can guess what sort of stats they include. The one on the top row is likely crit chance and crit damage. The one with the winged boot icon is likely mounted movement speed, and maybe long cooldown reduction?. The one with the triangle icon probably increases stamina, and maybe energy and attack power as well. And the one on the bottom row likely increases physical resistance. Maybe the health regen got rolled into that one. 

Each promotion also has a stat bundle. I would assume that these are simply the stats from the 6.1 trees that aren't already accounted for in the promotion nodes. For Swordsman, that should include 6% crit chance and 10% slashing bonus and cap. For Sentinel, 15% power efficiency and cap, 10% crushing damage bonus and cap, and 18% hard crowd control. For Secutor, 4.5% personal damage modifier, 10% crushing damage bonus and cap, and 10% final mitigation cap.

Retribution Slash - I believe this ability was pulled from the Blade Master discipline. Assuming it is still the same, it does 133 + 133% weapon damage and gives 20% retribution for 15 seconds. 

Retribution has always kind of sucked. I'm hoping that they have made changes to the way it works, to make a retribution build worthwhile. We used to be able to add small amounts of retribution via armor, but that was removed, along with other things like lifesteal. We were told that these things would be folded into disciplines, so maybe there will be major and/or minor discs which increase retribution.

The biggest problem with retribution has always been the way the damage is calculated. The damage is based on the final damage done to the caster, post-mitigation. So as you improve your armor, you are making retribution worse. And if you are mitigating 70% while blocking, you are also reducing your retribution damage by 70%.

Retribution damage needs to be calculated pre-mitigation. 

Redirected Strikes - This ability is granted by the Secutor promotion and increases your damage modifier and grants a Retribution buff. This is obviously meant to work in conjunction with Retribution Slash, though we don't know how much of a buff it gives, and again, it won't matter much if the way retribution is calculated hasn't changed.

Revenge - This ability is also granted by Secutor, and gives a damage bonus that increases for each time you are hit. According to Rhea, this stacks with the damage bonus from blocking big hits. We don't know how much bonus we get per stack, but my guess would be something like 2%. The description says that it increases up to a cap, but we have no idea what the cap is, if it is different than the Damage Bonus cap, or how it might affect the cap itself. Maybe the cap on this buff is a 20% damage increase and it also increases the Damage Bonus cap by 20%. 

Endurance - Finally, Knights get some sustainability. Every time we apply a CC, we get healed. This would seem to synergize really well with the Sentinel promotion, but before I get to that, I have some questions regarding this ability. Rhea suggested that this passive will heal for each target CCed.

The question, however, is does the healing scale at all with support power and healing bonus? I would hope so, but I'm expecting to be disappointed. We also don't know how much it heals for per CC. My guess is that it will be similar to the Burning Hatred heal, which heals for 2% of max HP and doesn't scale very well. I would hope that it would be better than that, but we'll see.

Paralyzing Shout - This ability is granted to Sentinels and does an AOE knockdown. This should work well with Endurance. Sentinels also get an AOE root on Noble Blood, a stun on Pursuit, and a root on Chain Attack, all of which should trigger Endurance. We don't know if Paralyzing Shout works in a radius around the knight, or if it's a cone like Noble Blood.

Macemanship - This passive hasn't changed, supposedly, but on live this passive also increases the energy restored by the Echoing Assault talent. That talent appears to be gone, unless it has been rolled into one of the stat bundles. This talent still forces Sentinels to use a mace. I assume the weights on maces haven't changed, and maybe the power efficiency talents have been rolled into the stat bundles, but it's still disappointing to be forced to use a specific weapon, and thereby be further limited in what disciplines we can choose. 

Spiked Shield - All shield attacks now add a bleed. This talent would seem to synergize with the Swordsman promotion, as Chain Attack adds a bleed when you go that route. However, unless they have changed it, different bleeds do not stack. So having a bleed on shield attacks, chain attack, and Obliterate seems like a waste. This is obviously something that will need to be tested. Does each shield attack apply a stacking bleed? Or does it just reset the timer? And do stronger bleeds overwrite it?

Swordsmanship - This Swordsman passive remains the same, and they have given knights Retribution Slash as a base attack, which can be used with this passive. However, the promotion is still forced to use a sword, which might make Blade Master still required. If Blade Master isn't already in the knight class domain, that may affect the domain choice for the promotion. The fact that we have to use a sword will still limit discipline selection. I don't know what disciplines are in each of the domains (war, battle, justice), but if any of them aren't compatible with swords (Adjudicator, Holy Avenger, Knife Grinder, etc.), then they are useless to a swordsman.

Valorous Strike - This is an execute attack, granted to the Swordsman promotion. I assume it counts as a non-shield melee attack, so it will work with Swordsmanship. Maybe this ability makes it so Blade Master isn't a must have. We will have to see the cooldown and cost. This should obviously work with the Finish Him minor, and it could be capable of some serious single target damage.

Juggernaut - This ability adds a stacking mitigation buff each time you are hit. The amount of the buff, and how many times it can stack, are unknown. It is also unknown how this affects the mitigation caps, or even what type of mitigation it is. Does it increase resistances? Does it increase armor? Does it increase Personal Damage Modifier? 

Domains - In the video of the knight reveal, there were things related to domains that Rhea was not allowed to talk about. I thought that domains were just groups of disciplines, but might they be more than that? Maybe each domain gives the player a certain buff or ability. 

All 3 knight promotions get the Justice domain. It seems likely that the Adjudicator and Holy Avenger discs could be part of Justice. Those 2 discs may have been split into 4 discs, and there are probably at least a couple others in the domain, but those specific discs won't be of any use to a Swordsman. Swordsman also get War and Battle. I would expect these to contain some combination of Blade Master, Shield Fighter, Standard Bearer, Shield Breaker, Juggernaut, Escape Artist and Underdog. 

Sentinel gets Justice, Battle and Music. Music is likely Bard and Troubadour. 

Secutor gets Justice, Death and Nature. The Nature ones are probably Naiad, Dryad and Pixie. Death, I don't know. Maybe Plague Lord and Knife Grinder? I'm sure there are new ones, with new powers. Maybe there are some new death ones that are based on druid powers. 

Summary

I think that covers everything. Obviously I have made some assumptions here, and we won't know all the answers until we can test it. I think the changes have the potential to be good, but I also expect there to be some rough spots that need to be ironed out. Hopefully it will hit the test server sooner rather than later, and we can see how well it all works.

 

I may have missed it or just overlooked it--- but are DPS Knights still getting the +50% 6 sec damage buff?   If so reverberating blow was great.  On a white vessel that skill hit for 1400.

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1 minute ago, Primaris said:

I may have missed it or just overlooked it--- but are DPS Knights still getting the +50% 6 sec damage buff?   If so reverberating blow was great.  On a white vessel that skill hit for 1400.

Yeah, that ability is broken, and there are some people abusing it. It's not supposed to hit for that much. According to the tooltip, it's not supposed to damage the target at all, but rather give an aura that damages others around the target for 30 + 30% weapon damage each tick. 

It actually isn't the dps knight (swordsman), as they can't use the adjudicator disc. Sentinels can though, and they get the Skullcrusher buff when they stun or knockdown a target, which gives a +15% damage bonus and 25% movement speed for 6 seconds.

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14 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Yeah, that ability is broken, and there are some people abusing it. It's not supposed to hit for that much. According to the tooltip, it's not supposed to damage the target at all, but rather give an aura that damages others around the target for 30 + 30% weapon damage each tick. 

It actually isn't the dps knight (swordsman), as they can't use the adjudicator disc. Sentinels can though, and they get the Skullcrusher buff when they stun or knockdown a target, which gives a +15% damage bonus and 25% movement speed for 6 seconds.

Uhhhh.  Fyi swordsman knight can in fact use adjudicator right now.

Edited by Arkdin
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57 minutes ago, Arkdin said:

Uhhhh.  Fyi swordsman knight can in fact use adjudicator right now.

You're correct that they can use it, but 2 of the abilities require a blunt weapon. It's probably not intended that Reverberating Blow and Demolish Armor don't require a blunt weapon.

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2 hours ago, Arkade said:

I just tested it on the test server and it works. It's a 5 meter cone. Isn't melee range 6 meters? Maybe they adjusted the range when they added the new shouts.

I could get it to proc on mobs / dummies but don't recall it ever rooting a player.

same with arbiter ae root...never saw it land.

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

You're correct that they can use it, but 2 of the abilities require a blunt weapon. It's probably not intended that Reverberating Blow and Demolish Armor don't require a blunt weapon.

Reverb and demolish armor are the abilities that matter at the moment and they don't require a mace.  Hard to say what is or isn't intended in this game but you're probably correct. 

 

Its a moot point after 6.2 hits.

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4 hours ago, Arkade said:

I just tested it on the test server and it works. It's a 5 meter cone. Isn't melee range 6 meters? Maybe they adjusted the range when they added the new shouts.

WAIT

are the 6.2 classes available on test now?

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21 minutes ago, Arkdin said:

Reverb and demolish armor are the abilities that matter at the moment and they don't require a mace.  Hard to say what is or isn't intended in this game but you're probably correct. 

 

Its a moot point after 6.2 hits.

the problem with this using mace on a swordsman is the loss of the swordsman buff

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20 minutes ago, Primaris said:

WAIT

are the 6.2 classes available on test now?

No. I wish. I was just testing the Noble Blood root, which is already available in 6.1.

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20 minutes ago, Primaris said:

the problem with this using mace on a swordsman is the loss of the swordsman buff

You can actually use Reverb and demolish with a sword, currently. We'll see what happens in 6.2.

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

You can actually use Reverb and demolish with a sword, currently. We'll see what happens in 6.2.

thought u still needed a mace in the offhand atleast

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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9 minutes ago, veeshan said:

thought u still needed a mace in the offhand atleast

We're still talking about knights, right? 🙃

I tested with a swordsman knight, with a sword and shield equipped. I was able to use Reverb and Demolish, but not the other 2 abilities. When I tried to use the others, it said a blunt weapon is required.

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