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A Brief Look at the Champion - Talent Tree


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Today, we are sharing a first look at the Champion and how it evolves in the new system.  In context, in the Livestream, we touched on the fact that in the current system character specialization is based on the choice of Race, Class, Promotion Class, and Discipline Choices. With the new system, we are adding another layer, Domains. Domains expand the depth of choices within your Promotion Class, offering greater diversity with more options that allow players to build more layered and uniquely distinct and powerful characters. 

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Watch the October Livestream here

A Brief Look at the Ranger - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Confessor - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Assassin - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Knight - Talent Tree

Streamfall Podcast Reveal - Knight

A Brief Look at the Duelist - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Champion - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Myrmidon - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Cleric - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Frostweaver - Talent Tree

A Brief Look at the Druid - Talent Tree

 

 

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

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Neckbreaker was stationary before, is this a new targeting system for that ability or just some marketing flash? @ACE-Tiggs

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As an avid champion player in the past, I really like some of these changes but some of them also leave me scratching my head a bit.

The Good

Demo shout is sick.
The stat bundles look good.
The consolidations make sense.
The changes to the X Warrior spells are good, and I like that they are behind the promos now.
Pitfighters get an actually fun ultimate now that isn't confusingly named but still makes them tanky.

The Bad

Giving out crit on your promotion class node for Alpha is strange in a class that is designed around making their own free crits.
Losing invincible warrior reduces some design space and counter play to the pitfighter (barrier stripping is worse now).
Barbarian looks a little samey, but will hold judgement until I can test actual damage output and sustain.
Alpha will be VERY meta dependant after losing their control. It's going to be very hard for an alpha to end a ranged character without neckbreaker knockdowns.
 

Can't wait to get my hands on this stuff - overall a positive direction for the class.

Edited by galvia
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I'm not against these changes, and I think they are well thought-out. It should be noted, however, that a lot of your decisions seem to actually limit build diversity in a lot of ways. And with major disciplines being half as important as they are now, the same Promos are being pushed closer together.

On the other hand, if you can make all 33 Promos viable, that is a worthy trade for weaker disciplines, IMO.

I currently run all three types of Warrior on my Alpha, to be used with discretion about the situation I'm in. Now, that is out of my hands. That's an example of actually limiting builds and lowering choices.

We have to pick a promotion. That is the only significant choice, with major domain likely a distant second.

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52 minutes ago, galvia said:

Neckbreaker was stationary before, is this a new targeting system for that ability or just some marketing flash? @ACE-Tiggs

It should show as run, stop and leap, however it's pulled directly from our in-game capture tool and it didn't capture properly.  We're looking into seeing if we can get a new image up, sorry about that and thanks for letting me know.  

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

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Really liking the changes here. Especially to Spinning Backfist, though are blinds going away?
Barbarian looks a lot better. Having movespeed on its warrior is a more fitting.
Demoralising Shout looks like a great add. In fact, pretty much everything new is really solid.

Really looking forward to getting my hands on it.

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1 hour ago, McTan said:

We have to pick a promotion. That is the only significant choice, with major domain likely a distant second.

which isn't a choice in the case of healers for a class and could be similar for the domain disc for role/utility.

i have reservations about the disc locking (example end ~17 major total choices from 110 pool) and the disc two power/passive dilution and rigid domain selection per promotion.

need to see more detail.

also classes with less race options (especially one for the duelist) suffer from less flexiblity to alter their selection.

i hope this is accounted for when assigning the 'class discs'.

Edited by Tinnis
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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

which isn't a choice in the case of healers for a class and could be similar for the domain disc for role/utility.

i have reservations about the disc locking (example end ~17 major total choices from 110 pool) and the disc two power/passive dilution and rigid domain selection per promotion.

need to see more detail.

also classes with less race options (especially one for the duelist) suffer from less flexiblity to alter their selection.

i hope this is accounted for when assigning the 'class discs'.

Yes, I think they are mistaking choosing a domain as somehow a harder choice than choosing the majors themselves. Access to more things that we want is what made the disc choices hard. Unless the disciplines really show me something interesting (seems like they are 50% of what we have now, but with still only 2 slots - an across the board nerf), the only thing looking up is making a few more promos relevant.

They executed this without us asking for it, and if they would have simply laid out parameters (no engineering) to us, we could have come up with better. I love decreased points, but they still kept chain talent training, and lowered the amount of talents so severely.

What I was hoping for, when Todd mentioned Shadowbane, was an ability to spend my talent points augmenting a specific ability that I had. Let me choose to put a ton of points into demoralizing shout, or spread my points between Neckbreaker and Rend.

Should I max holy symbol if it means I cannot max rescue? Should I max kinetic boost if it means I don't have the points to max aurora emitter? Should I do lightning burst and emitter both to half or train one more than the other? Oh crap, I can't train both searing light to max and divine order to max. Hmm, I'll have to make a tough choice.

Alas.

Edited by McTan
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2 hours ago, McTan said:

Yes, I think they are mistaking choosing a domain as somehow a harder choice than choosing the majors themselves

They have to be of the impression that choosing a promotion is the 'hard character building choice'.

I think their ideas behind domains is that we will think, "I really want Disc X but Alpha Warrior does not get the right domain. I will now instead choose to be a Pit Fighter to pick up Disc X."

This would be fine if major discs were character and build defining. From what they currently are and what we have seen/heard so far about disc in 6.2, they will not be.

How this is going to play out is we will decide on a PROMOTION CLASS we want to play, and then pick the best 2 majors available to that.

If discs are not going to be anything special, then domains serve very little purpose and work in the opposite direction that they were intended.

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

Well, adding additional restrictions on who can take which disciplines is a step in the direction of Shadowbane. Shadowbane disciplines had all kinds of restrictions on who could use them.

Shadowbane disciplines were just part of it. It had a lot more than that. 

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3 hours ago, Yoink said:

They have to be of the impression that choosing a promotion is the 'hard character building choice'.

I think their ideas behind domains is that we will think, "I really want Disc X but Alpha Warrior does not get the right domain. I will now instead choose to be a Pit Fighter to pick up Disc X."

This would be fine if major discs were character and build defining. From what they currently are and what we have seen/heard so far about disc in 6.2, they will not be.

How this is going to play out is we will decide on a PROMOTION CLASS we want to play, and then pick the best 2 majors available to that.

If discs are not going to be anything special, then domains serve very little purpose and work in the opposite direction that they were intended.

Might be underselling the impact of race based domains and minors now though.

Sure, the majors themselves may offer less total powers, but we haven't seen what new minors look like (which may have seriously expanded the selection of valuable  active powers in stead of being almost entirely niche passives) nor have we seen how the impact of race/class domains play out.What we *have* seen thusfar is a genuine attempt to make all the promotion classes and talent picks valuable. There are bound to be some missteps and there are bound to be some adjustments to balance out these power levels after we get our hands on it, but the entire point isn't that you can have 45 different pitfighters. The point is that people actually want to play all three of those promotions, and all three of those domains for different reasons, and actually take different majors and minors in those domains on different races.

I mean lets be fair here, most majors either had pointless baggage you didn't use on them, or the ones that didn't were so good that they made other majors look pointless by comparison. The number of viable combinations of race, class, and majors up to this point has been pretty terrible, with several races being straight up worse than others for a given class, most majors being noob traps, a large number of promotions being straight up garbage, and most minors being so underwhelming that everyone uses the same 4 o 5 on every single template.

Race was a really binary choice before, and there were a very few good minors for any given build. If race and minors are a bigger piece of the puzzle than before, and the majority of powers on offer are actually good, and the promotion classes of every class are actually worth playing, we're in good shape. We're stuck in a headspace of majors having an outsized impact on builds as they are now, because minors mostly suck, races are one trick ponies, and most classes have one if not two promotion specs that straight up suck.

If some of the heavy lifting is removed from majors and put on minors, and if there is meaningful and interesting diversity in those race granted major choices, and the promotions can all justify their existence we could see a lot more viable and interesting build diversity.

Having the ability to choose between 40 majors when all but 3 of them suck for your build is not and never was an interesting or meaningful choice. If that number goes up to 10 or 15 majors you seriously consider, and the domain limitations for minors are actually a factor in making those decisions you're getting a ton of customization and diversity. It's just moe evenly spread across all the contrubting factors of your build in stead of mostly backloaded in to "what promotion and majors did you pick?"

People are missing the benefits of these sorts of locks. Namely that when you make hard limits like that it makes it far easier to make all the parts of the system actually good by preventing overlap of a lot of synergies that would otherwise overperform and lead to stagnant meta.

I think its worth looking at how all the pieces fit before calling foul on it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I think its worth looking at how all the pieces fit before calling foul on it.

Absolutely. And I've admitted before that I've yet to see any discs other than the new Banshee. I've said before that with these new trees, if character building is going to matter it will be in the discs, so they need to be awesome. I am making a prediction based on what I've seen and what I expect from Ace that this will not be the case. I really hope I'm wrong but will lobby for meaningful character building while there might still be time to get it.

 

Hopefully, worse case, we end up with 33 viable classes.

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55 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Hopefully, worse case, we end up with 33 viable classes.

33 viable classes and several different ways to build each viable class could end up in a heck of a lot of combinations. But you're right that'll hinge a lot on discs moreso than how you allocate talent points. 

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4 hours ago, MacDeath said:

Not gonna happen here. Stop looking forward to what they say they want to do and learn to settle for what they actually do?

Yeah, he's being snarky. But this is the umpteenth time that we get sold something that winds up being different. Is it better than the previous system? Maybe. Is it closer to Shadowbane? Barely. If Todd & team really went back to study Shadowbane, I just don't see how they end up here. It's not as though it would be revolutionary to allow us to train powers a la Shadowbane, instead of talent trees a la WoW.

And settling for what they produce in Beta Versions seems fruitless, I'd much rather push on them until the game folds, but you do you.

Edited by McTan
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