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Competition vs Domination... A problem that will plague CF.


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36 minutes ago, Jah said:

Only if you ignore all the things that they have changed and experimented over time with the campaigns. It's not like they've all been the same.

Refresh my memory, what have they tried/experimented with over the years that is greatly different then what we have today and or anything like what I suggested?

We've had GvG, 3 Faction, and whatever the 3 Faction Tug of War format was.

They've done no or X import/export.

Trial variations rewarded top faction/guild/players for doing whatever activity.

Beyond that I don't remember much difference between one campaign to the next.

Now with the card system it is do whatever they tell us (very sandboxy) to get the most points before time runs out.

No Bloodstone campaign, no elf only campaign, no magic free campaign, no players triggering campaign ending, etc. Things they said would be possible.

Campaign rulesets so far seem to be as exciting as procedural world building.

When it comes to actual rules that change how players play the game, I seem to have missed those campaigns.

Edited by APE
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On 10/17/2020 at 5:20 PM, daegog said:

People ABSOLUTELY do not need to be enticed to seek domination, for me, proof of this is plainly seen in how many cheats exist for so many games (particularly shooters).

It's trivial to win a game of Counter Strike using aimbots and wall hacks, so why do they do it?  To feed their little ego.  Win or lose, they gain nothing, not even fake internet points unless you could K/D ratio, but who really cares about someone's K/D ratio.

It's not long before winning an internet game by cheating stops to provide even that little ego boost, in most people. Also, the thrill and novelty of it wears off quickly, as well. Those players are usually done with a game by the time they start cheating, anyway.

Edit:

There's also this talk on anti-cheating which profiles types of cheaters that is pretty interesting. The vast majority of cheaters aren't really in it to dominate, they're in it b/c they're bad and want to stay competitive.

On 10/17/2020 at 5:20 PM, daegog said:

If we had a hack in Crowfall, that gave you the very best gear and no way for it to be detected, how many players would use it?  I'm betting tons would use it, some would claim "well everyone else is doing it", some would use it just because they like to win that much.

If literally everyone was in fact doing it, it might actually encourage competitiveness and keep people coming back.

But while you may be right that many would use a hack, not all would, and it would therefore discourage competitiveness. In time, people would stop playing. 

In that situation, I would think the solution would be to simply give every player access to the same gear as a design choice to render the hack obsolete and let players focus on the combat.

On 10/17/2020 at 5:20 PM, daegog said:

Lets say that Crowfall had a class/race combo that was significantly better than every other set up, how many players would choose that class/race combo?  They aren't doing it to further competition, they are doing it to dominate.

I think if there is a build that is so overwhelmingly good, and it doesn't get fixed, this discourages competitiveness, and creates a stale game that no one wants to play. 

Consider Chess and Go. The only advantage in each comes from having the first move. These are games that inherently encourage competitiveness, and they have had very long life-spans. It would not be the same if one side got to make two moves for every one move from their opponent. People wouldn't play it, it would be ridiculous.

 

You do bring up some good points. Dominant behavior does exist, and it may even feel good - for a time. However, it does not keep people coming back, while truly competitive games have consistent appeal. Long term, competitiveness is a much better draw. Also, your main point, which is that competitive play should be encouraged over dominance-seeking behavior is perfectly valid.

I just happen to think this comes from creating a fun and balanced game experience, not through enticements and rewards.

Edited by Cejo
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On 10/16/2020 at 1:53 PM, daegog said:

Competition is one motivation for players but Domination is another (probably why we still see people cheat in meaningless games of Counter Strike 15 years later)

In the "testing" last night, I saw massive numbers of well geared players teamed up in order to easily dominate the opposition.

Domination is self-feeding, you need little to motivate players to seek to be number 1 (whatever that means) but you will need motivation in order to get players to compete against other equally geared/skilled players imo.

I wonder what mechanics can be put into the game that can enhance the competition aspect?  Just hoping these top players get bored and decide to fight each other is not really a good plan, if you want a healthy player base.

Perhaps this example can make more sense, you and a few other your buddies head down to the local gym for a game of pick up basketball and the other team is 5 NBA all stars.  While the sheer novelty might be fun for a while, at some point, you will be tired of having Lebron James crotch in your face because he is dunking on you every single time.

I mean its fair right? 5v5.. You could just stop whining and get gud, you know, get as good as NBA players, could happen.  And it is totally unfair to demand those guys do not play together, so how do you give them some motivation to split that all star team up and make the games more fair and fun for everyone instead of just the NBA guys?

We farm, we craft, we dominate. Otherwise, what's the reason for all these gathering & crafting stuff? Moreover, if you just craft yourself (or buy) basic green stuff: body, gear, weapons, jewelry, then you'll be somewhat comparable to the top geared player. Finally, there are a lot of tactics which can lead you to victory even when you are less geared than other players. Geared players get bored and over-confident so they don't think wisely and just go straight at you....

The difference between Green and Blue/Purple gear in Crowfall is minimal. While the difference in efforts you put to get those higher quality ones is huge. Just be a bit smarter when you fight players from major guilds if you don't want to poopsock and farm a lot to get better gear for yourself and spend ~6 or more hours each day in the game.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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4 hours ago, Cejo said:

The vast majority of cheaters aren't really in it to dominate, they're in it b/c they're bad and want to stay competitive.

They aren´t good enough to dominate their bracket. Now guess what that means.

GvTm2yj.gif

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