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Changes to Crafting...


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AGREED grivyn, whoever made the talent trees domain choices and the disk's their in Do not Play the game enough to make those systems .and the stupid time gated training will be the downfall of this game it should be a You crafted x u get x xp .u harvested x crap u get x Xp u fought in pvp u get x Combat training and so on cause ppl to play the game instead of w8 months for it to be rewarding when ppl currently cant watch an ad  during a video w/o going to the next video

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16 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Those passives are part of the 6.300 belt progression, but it not a bad idea to have a few shrines available in the open world for those who haven't progressed as far.
...

So those stats will move from passive training to beltstats?

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2 hours ago, thomasblair said:

These values are based off the partially implemented values that went up on Test day 1 with as global profession based proc rate.
Over the past few days on Test we have changed it to a recipe based proc rate, so baseline recipes within a profession can have different proc rates, and we have been tuning the rates / finding recipes we missed with each Test update. (Ideally on vessels now you should see a 1 in 7ish rate)
As you craft more within a profession you will see more souls, those can be used to upgrade disciplines or upgrade belts.

 


The goal with this was to match the gameplay to the activity type to the advancement model; ie crafting gives you crafting advancement, harvesting gives you exploration advancement, combat gives you combat advancement. Once we have the proc rates tuned, it should just feel every few end item crafts you get a soul.
Which leads into...

The Belts stats are still in flux and have a quality upgrade path as well based on souls, which lets you choose between upgrading disciplines / belts. More than likely we won't enable the Belt uprade recipe until 6.300 however.

it sounds nice, having a chance to get crafting disciplines by crafting is awesome.
Been the only way is not. it means i will have to  spend tons of time getting low quality stuff and crafting bad stuff no one is gonna want for anything bc wartribe is gonna be way better (even more without half my crafting minors and no tool belt) and delay us an even more to be able to craft worthy stuff compared to wartribe.

Reward us for crafting is a great idea, but dont take away our choices, at least me can't feel it as an improvement.
 

Edited by Carausius
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30 minutes ago, Grivyn said:

Ussiah, you left out the part where a melee pvp player will also now have to spend weeks training pointless ranged nodes or a range pvper will have to train pointless melee nodes in order to unlock the best melee or range passive benefit.

As a crafting focus'd player I never wanted the crafting disc's moved into exploration slots and still fail to see why. I dont have the passive training on my crafters to even pvp in the first place, but i DID use them to harvest with which is now impossible. That FACT I now have to unlock every damn crafting tree bar stonemason to open up the scroll case and attention to detail is beyond a joke.

Yea, I dont get why crafting is saddled with training a bunch of stuff you dont want to get the best passive.

The attention to detail 90% lock out is ridiculous.

The tool belts only being blue wouldn't be an issue if we weren't now forced to grind out crap to get them, while already making subpar to wartribe gear.

 

At the very least should put attention to detail 50% to get to AND make tool belts(additives) accessible with a white/base disc.

 

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49 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

The largest complaint we have seen over the course of the project has been "I just have to wait to get better". With this model you can advance at your pace / guilds pace and aren't gated by the passage of time, but gated more by resource acquisition.

Why aren't combat souls or harvesting souls gated by resource acquisition? They can actively produce a surplus of crafting supplies while farming their souls. Crafters, on the other hand, have to stop farming souls to get these things. Crafters have to suffer a net loss to farm these souls.

You haven't sped up crafting advancement with this setup. You have slowed it down immensely. If the idea is "if people have to grind out crafts they'll sell items others want to buy" that isn't how this is going to pan out. People are going to make the most garbage items possible out of whatever spare nonsense is floating around just to roll those dice. Nobody is going to want to buy whatever mismatched stats are on said items when an already skilled crafter (that got there by making a bunch of terrible items) can utilize said same resources to produce much better items.

The crafter will, invariably, be stuck as a net drain on their own or their guild's bank in a way that currently doesn't exist just to advance. Compare this with the 6.1 system, where the guild can supply specific materials and discs and craft specific gear and vessels and the only incentive to craft is to make items you expect people to use. This results in actual stockpiles of material, which then allows the crafter to craft more things that people actually want to use.

In your new system, there is zero incentive to be ready or maintain a standing supply. Doing that is just slowing down the progression of all of my crafters for the ability to have worse items on demand. If I have a box of stuff, I'm going to craft with it, and most of the stuff I craft with this random box of stuff is going to be terrible. Nobody is going to want to buy it. Nobody is going to want to equip it. I will be effectively throwing resources in a fire to advance, and as a result those most prepared to throw the largest amount of resources in a fire will advance faster, in turn making it even harder to sell and recoup the loss of those materials.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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17 minutes ago, Carausius said:

it sounds nice, having a chance to get crafting disciplines by crafting is awesome.
Been the only way is not. it means i will have to  spend tons of time getting low quality stuff and crafting bad stuff no one is gonna want for anything bc wartribe is gonna be way better (even more without half my crafting minors and no tool belt) and delay us an even more to be able to craft worthy stuff compared to wartribe.

Reward us for crafting is a great idea, but dont take away our choices, at least me can't feel it as an improvement.
 

You could also buy those crafting discs from other players, right? It just means *someone* has to spend a lot of time and low quality resources levelling up their crafting. You are free to spend the time acquiring wealth in some other way so you can buy the crafting discs on the market.

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9 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

You could also buy those crafting discs from other players, right? It just means *someone* has to spend a lot of time and low quality resources levelling up their crafting. You are free to spend the time acquiring wealth in some other way so you can buy the crafting discs on the market.

Why would a crafter that no longer needs crafting discs sell crafting discs to their rivals?

If I'm trying to capture the vessel market, and I've managed through collective or personal effort to get all that stuff to legendary, I'm damn sure not going to then make it easier for people who want to compete with me in that market to do so. My inclination would be to stockpile them for other guild crafters, except my guild doesn't need another necromancer because they have me. Thus my only logical competitive choice to make here is to throw every single additional soul directly in to a sacrifice fire or vendor.

The trade argument only makes sense if I can't reliably produce what I need, and as crafting souls are generated by crafting the thing they buff, I have no incentive to trade them away.

It is no accident that in 6.1 there are so few souls for sale. It isn't because people don't have them. Its because the only valuable trade for a soul is to trade one you don't need for one you do. When you already have a direct path to get only the souls you need, there is no incentive to trade them away.

Edited by PopeUrban

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11 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Why aren't combat souls or harvesting souls gated by resource acquisition? They can actively produce a surplus of crafting supplies while farming their souls. Crafters, on the other hand, have to stop farming souls to get these things. Crafters have to suffer a net loss to farm these souls.

You haven't sped up crafting advancement with this setup. You have slowed it down immensely. If the idea is "if people have to grind out crafts they'll sell items others want to buy" that isn't how this is going to pan out. People are going to make the most garbage items possible out of whatever spare nonsense is floating around just to roll those dice. Nobody is going to want to buy whatever mismatched stats are on said items when an already skilled crafter (that got there by making a bunch of terrible items) can utilize said same resources to produce much better items.

The crafter will, invariably, be stuck as a net drain on their own or their guild's bank in a way that currently doesn't exist just to advance. Compare this with the 6.1 system, where the guild can supply specific materials and discs and craft specific gear and vessels and the only incentive to craft is to make items you expect people to use. This results in actual stockpiles of material, which then allows the crafter to craft more things that people actually want to use.

In your new system, there is zero incentive to be ready or maintain a standing supply. Doing that is just slowing down the progression of all of my crafters for the ability to have worse items on demand. If I have a box of stuff, I'm going to craft with it, and most of the stuff I craft with this random box of stuff is going to be terrible. Nobody is going to want to buy it. Nobody is going to want to equip it. I will be effectively throwing resources in a fire to advance, and as a result those most prepared to throw the largest amount of resources in a fire will advance faster, in turn making it even harder to sell and recoup the loss of those materials.

 

Harvesting souls are though kinda, gotta get those soul gems from my understanding to make the tool that give the souls.

Combat not as much.

On most crafting though can you just craft white items for crafting souls?? or does it have to be green (Although this doesnt work for necro :P) but if you can do white its not to bad i wouldnt think.

I would say necro soul are gated more behind shovel unlocks :P since u can harvest enough minerals before you can even get the souls atleast our mineral harvester usualy has huge stockpile by the time our necro gets shovels

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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2 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Why would a crafter that no longer needs crafting discs sell crafting discs to their rivals?

If I'm trying to capture the vessel market, and I've managed through collective or personal effort to get all that stuff to legendary, I'm damn sure not going to then make it easier for people who want to compete with me in that market to do so.

The trade argument only makes sense if I can't reliably produce what I need, and as crafting souls are generated by crafting the thing they buff, I have no incentive to trade them away.

It is no accident that in 6.1 there are so few souls for sale. It isn't because people don't have them. Its because the only valuable trade for a soul is to trade one you don't need for one you do. When you already have a direct path to get only the souls you need, there is no incentive to trade them away.

Why does anyone sell anything? For riches! It's true, crafters might form some kind of crafting cartel and try to keep prices artificially high, but it only takes one dedicated crafter to defect and start churning out discs. The incentive will be there assuming there is a working economy.

Though, a working economy might be a new thing for this game :) 

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7 minutes ago, veeshan said:

Harvesting souls are though kinda, gotta get those soul gems from my understanding to make the tool that give the souls.

Combat not as much.

On most crafting though can you just craft white items for crafting souls?? or does it have to be green (Although this doesnt work for necro :P) but if you can do white its not to bad i wouldnt think.

You get those soul gems from harvesting a node that also spits out materials. You're in a closed loop of net positive profit in resources/loot doing either.

Crafting, on the other hand is only ever a net loss. You consume resources and loot but you never create it.

This is all well and good when you're making items people want to use. It's terrible when your goal is literally just to make as many items as fast as possible and don't care how good they are.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Just now, nihilsupernum said:

Why does anyone sell anything? For riches! It's true, crafters might form some kind of crafting cartel and try to keep prices artificially high, but it only takes one dedicated crafter to defect and start churning out discs. The incentive will be there assuming there is a working economy.

Though, a working economy might be a new thing for this game :) 

A working economy would require people have surplus to sell and a compelling reason to sell it. This change to crafting advancement makes the already anemic incentives to sell anything of value even worse. That's the problem here.

I'm not taking my time to craft good items with this, targeting specific resources for specific stats so people want to buy them. That would be an inefficient way to advance. I'm crafting with literally whatever I can get the most of the fastest. In a guild context that's "everything in materials storage" and in a solo context thats "whatever nodes happen to be grouped together the best in one respawn run and close to a safe bank"

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13 minutes ago, Grivyn said:

it is when while crafting those whites on a white vessel you are also using twice the mats required

oh yeah I forgot the biggest kick to the gonads.

Crafting had some resource costs DOUBLED or TRIPLED just so we had to have what ever specialty minor for that craft. Was a completely arbitrary change.

NEXT this arbitrary higher cost is ONLY lowered by using a tool belt, which requires blue discs, which we have to grind out crap at an ARBITRARILY higher cost to get this blue disc, to get the belt, just to go back down to the original costs.

 

EDIT: This means you actually need 84 halite/cinnabar for 7 bodies, or 252 halite AND cinnabar to hopefully get enough disciplines for a blue necro to use a belt, to have lower costs and use additive. I would love to see @thomasblairfarm those additives(and make the 21 bodies) then farm 3 of the same domain from combat,

Edited by Ussiah
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13 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

Why does anyone sell anything? For riches! It's true, crafters might form some kind of crafting cartel and try to keep prices artificially high, but it only takes one dedicated crafter to defect and start churning out discs. The incentive will be there assuming there is a working economy.

Though, a working economy might be a new thing for this game :) 

even with an economy is not gonna happen anytime soon after an start. does not feel the road to go imo

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7 minutes ago, Ussiah said:

oh yeah I forgot the biggest kick to the gonads.

Crafting had some resource costs DOUBLED or TRIPLED just so we had to have what ever specialty minor for that craft. Was a completely arbitrary change.

NEXT this arbitrary higher cost is ONLY lowered by using a tool belt, which requires blue discs, which we have to grind out crap at an ARBITRARILY higher cost to get this blue disc, to get the belt, just to go back down to the original costs.

oh man i better had not remembered this 😢

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20 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

A working economy would require people have surplus to sell and a compelling reason to sell it. This change to crafting advancement makes the already anemic incentives to sell anything of value even worse. That's the problem here.

I'm not taking my time to craft good items with this, targeting specific resources for specific stats so people want to buy them. That would be an inefficient way to advance. I'm crafting with literally whatever I can get the most of the fastest. In a guild context that's "everything in materials storage" and in a solo context thats "whatever nodes happen to be grouped together the best in one respawn run and close to a safe bank"

They will (eventually) have both a surplus - because any individual crafter can only use a limited number of souls, and a compelling reason to sell - because who doesn't like gold? again, assuming the economy works).

Maybe you're not taking your time to craft good items and just crafting badly to get souls, sure, but that drives gameplay too. It means you need a steady supply of materials. Someone has to get those materials. Your guild can help, and other players can help by selling you the mats. Either way, they're out in the world harvesting, pvp-ing, pig running.

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2 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

They will (eventually) have both a surplus - because any individual crafter can only use a limited number of souls, and a compelling reason to sell - because who doesn't like gold? again, assuming the economy works).

Maybe you're not taking your time to craft good items and just crafting badly to get souls, sure, but that drives gameplay too. It means you need a steady supply of materials. Someone has to get those materials. Your guild can help, and other players can help by selling you the mats. Either way, they're out in the world harvesting, pvp-ing, pig running.

Quick question, do you craft? Do you main craft for a guild?

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28 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Why aren't combat souls or harvesting souls gated by resource acquisition? They can actively produce a surplus of crafting supplies while farming their souls. Crafters, on the other hand, have to stop farming souls to get these things. Crafters have to suffer a net loss to farm these souls.

You haven't sped up crafting advancement with this setup. You have slowed it down immensely. If the idea is "if people have to grind out crafts they'll sell items others want to buy" that isn't how this is going to pan out. People are going to make the most garbage items possible out of whatever spare nonsense is floating around just to roll those dice. Nobody is going to want to buy whatever mismatched stats are on said items when an already skilled crafter (that got there by making a bunch of terrible items) can utilize said same resources to produce much better items.

The crafter will, invariably, be stuck as a net drain on their own or their guild's bank in a way that currently doesn't exist just to advance. Compare this with the 6.1 system, where the guild can supply specific materials and discs and craft specific gear and vessels and the only incentive to craft is to make items you expect people to use. This results in actual stockpiles of material, which then allows the crafter to craft more things that people actually want to use.

In your new system, there is zero incentive to be ready or maintain a standing supply. Doing that is just slowing down the progression of all of my crafters for the ability to have worse items on demand. If I have a box of stuff, I'm going to craft with it, and most of the stuff I craft with this random box of stuff is going to be terrible. Nobody is going to want to buy it. Nobody is going to want to equip it. I will be effectively throwing resources in a fire to advance, and as a result those most prepared to throw the largest amount of resources in a fire will advance faster, in turn making it even harder to sell and recoup the loss of those materials.

 

Well that is because combatants and harvesters act more as faucets and the crafters turn the resources from those faucets into sinks to be used to harvest/acquire more resources.

Advancement mechanics for crafting are pretty standard in any MMO, go harvest a bunch of stuff, make low level stuff to raise stats, make slightly better stuff to raise stats, make even better stuff to raise stats, etc. Pretty much the only thing slowing anyone down is how fast they acquire resources.
 

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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42 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

You could also buy those crafting discs from other players, right? It just means *someone* has to spend a lot of time and low quality resources levelling up their crafting. You are free to spend the time acquiring wealth in some other way so you can buy the crafting discs on the market.

Why would I sell viable and strategic resources to my enemy? 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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