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GulDelox

Preventing A Zerg-Fest?

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The best thing about this is that there can only be one winner at the end of the campaign (1 guild, 1 faction, 1 person etc.).

If people spot a zerg being formed, I bet the entire server will come together to crush them like little poorly made sockss because everyone knows they will not be able to win if they do not band together.

 

Atleast, thats what I would do.

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So the best way to counter the zerg is to out-zerg them :)

 

I say this in jest, but it's true. In every unlimited-participant PvP MMORPG, the side that brings the most characters wins.

 

But this is per battle. If the game offers grander strategy and the ability to target multiple locations at once (such as attacking a stronghold while simultaneously destroying mines and mills), and those services provide real strategic consequences (e.g. truly running low on resources), then having fewer soldiers might not be a losing position.

 

Forcing multiple, simultaneous battles requires both attacker and defender to spread numbers and prioritize battles. That is a way to reduce zerging.

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Friendly fire won't do much to deter people (look at Shadowbane), people will be forced to either recruit more defenders/PvPers or form alliances to stop the advancement of the zerg. Your town may only be vulnerable during a set siege time that both parties agree on (the solution on Shadowbane) but ultimately it can turn into a numbers game. However, if you see what happened in Shadowbane with the Asian guilds.. eventually it turned into a NA vs ASIA fight.. where after a certain time of day (nigh time for NA) you were better off logging off for the night since the Asian nations cupped together against anyone who wasn't in their alliance.

 

A full-loot system might be more of a deterrent however, if you get zerged and lose everything you have to the zerg I can see alot of people rage quitting and leaving. In Shadowbane players only dropped what they had in their inventories (not what they had equipped) and you still saw people quitting because it was too hardcore for them. Managing the zerg will definitely be a challenging task.

 

Towards the end of LIVE Shadowbane, Shadowbane became free to play, you just had to watch a Dell Commercial or something when you died and waited to respawn.. even then.. free access to the game wasn't enough to keep the carebears around and eventually Ubi Soft pulled the plug.

 

Well if a game is going to be hardcore, the developers need to inform the playerbase from the outset that it will be, in a lot of the information provided; It seems that Crowfall at times will have hardcore elements.  However given the option to have hardcore or not, all the carebears will be like "no" or they will rage quit.  It takes a lot of gutts and some heavy balls for a developer to decide to commit to a path towards making their game hardcore, but you'd find if you do, the experience is ultimately more rewarding... a lot of people seem to forget that Minecraft is hardcore and it's extremely popular despite that, the reason people don't even care that it's hardcore, is because the implementation is rather on the gentle side, as opposed to the brutal side you'd see in games like EVE Online. :P

 

The reason in Minecraft people never seem to care much for losses is because resources are abundant, everything - including Diamond items is easily replaceable and takes little time create and the game has no economy nor is there a time value and grind attatched to anything, also when you die, all your items are recoverable, including what you wore.  So you don't feel any impact of a loss, simply plain annoyance.  Same applies to DayZ and H1Z1 as well as Rust.

 

However, in EVE, all losses are very real, you lose days to months worth of work in a single explosion, all you can do is grit your teeth and bite the pillow and bare it, then get over it.  If you felt the impact of the loss - you shouldn't of been flying that ship, or operating that POS.

 

I got a fantastic idea on how to make a game hardcore, but at the same time make the impact of a loss something that reduces momentum and sets back a player, but doesn't deny them or remove an item from their owner.  


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I'll start by admitting that I am completely new to this community, and I know very little about the game except what I've been able to glean from the FAQ and the Kickstarter.

 

The thing that concerns me most about the faction or guild campaign system is how it will avoid turning into a zerg-fest like World vs. World in GuildWars 2.  In that game, at least when I played in the early days, the tactics quickly devolved into "roam the countryside in a massive clump of people capturing point after point, and whichever massive clump moves the fastest wins".  This works because it's very boring and sometimes impossible to guard strategic points 24/7, so there isn't much resistance to a large enough group just steamrolling through and taking the point.

 

Has there been any information on how the developers plan to prevent this kind of thing from happening?

 

There will be zerg but a little group well positioned thanks to collisions and FF can wipe a large blob of players because big zerg usually are uncoordinated.

 

ps: In Shadowbane didn't work because that mmorpg was a tab targeting game, only the aoe was ground targeting and hits multiple players, but with a full action combat like CF there will be not only aoe hits but normal swings too. Every action can hit another player, for this reason the impact will be on a large scale and more severe.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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There will be zerg but a little group well positioned thanks to collisions and FF can wipe a large blob of players because big zerg usually are uncoordinated.

 

ps: In Shadowbane didn't work because that mmorpg was a tab targeting game, only the aoe was ground targeting and hits multiple players, but with a full action combat like CF there will be not only aoe hits but normal swings too.

 

Quoted for truth. It's a castle seige game, of course there will be zergs. But all of the mechanics of the game seem to favor small coordinated strategy. Especially loot drop on death and FF.

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There will be zerg but a little group well positioned thanks to collisions and FF can wipe a large blob of players because big zerg usually are uncoordinated.

 

ps: In Shadowbane didn't work because that mmorpg was a tab targeting game, only the aoe was ground targeting and hits multiple players, but with a full action combat like CF there will be not only aoe hits but normal swings too. Every action can hit another player, for this reason the impact will be on a large scale and more severe.

 

Did you even play Shadowbane? Here is basically the type of fights you will see in Crowfall:

http://youtu.be/HRRRan73Dh4?t=5m12s

Edited by thenebrosity

OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

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Did you even play Shadowbane? Here is basically the type of fights you will see in Crowfall:

http://youtu.be/HRRRan73Dh4?t=5m12s

Hah

 

"They have a full fury group in there"

 

"Fack"

 

Zergs was in EQ even, but I must say, it was in SB we really saw them organized.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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As others have pointed out friendly fire is there, but my hope is that even if people do Zerg, a handful of skilled players will be able to take them on.

Now obviously numbers will eventually wear down even the best players but at least you could take out 5 kids before you die in a glorious rain of arrows :D

Also if one or maybe two people can cap a point as quickly as 5 or more then objectives could be taken everywhere and the Zerg grp will have to split.


TSGH

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There are a lot more strategic limitations they could add to combat, but it seems their emphasis on strategy belongs to the economy and society, they didn't show any attention to strategy in their demo.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Collision and friendly fire do a lot to disincentive zerging, since they make game-play a lot more tactical allowing organized groups to use funnels, choke points, shield walls, and with the voxel system, potentially, player made traps / fortifications.

 

With digging and voxel destruction there is a real potential for new emergent game-play that has got me really excited. The very idea that we might be-able to make pit falls, collapsible tunnels, and trench fortifications completely changes the tactical nature of game-play, in was I can't even fully imagine yet. The possibilities are enormous if they can make it work.

 

Think about baiting a large zerg onto an area where you have built tunnels close to the surface, and then as the zerg pushes in collapsing the tunnel underneath them. 

 

Or building a few trenches and then pushing into the back of a formation with a centaur cavalry charge, and physically pushing them into the trenches.  

 

There are jut so many possibilities if they can make both the collision system / voxel system work in large scale fights.

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I don't think zerg as a strategy will persist as they won't be economically efficient.

 

In Guild Wars 2, zergs are dominant because ArenaNet has made it all carrot and no stick. The carrot is that rewards are granted on an individual basis, so it doesn't matter how many people capture an objective. The lack of stick is that there is no cost to do ANYTHING in GW2 (not even dying costs anything anymore).

 

Crowfall's design snippets indicate they've removed the carrot and added the stick. Loot is based on what you take and who you kill. 100 players ganking 10 players will yield just as much loot as 50 players ganking the same 10 players, except the larger zerg has to either split the loot across more people or more people miss out altogether (or both). Then there's the fact that players have an upkeep cost, either eating in-game food, staying warm, etc. (details aren't finalized). So joining a zerg means your costs/hour will stay the same, but your profits/hour will go down.

 

My guess is you'll see zergs at launch due to mob mentality and upkeep costs being lower in the spring of campaigns. But they'll disappear as commanders wise up to winning the economic war vs. the immediate battle and try to use the optimal number of people to take an objective. If they don't, then the rank-and-file will probably desert as morale crumbles over rising costs and diminishing rewards.

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The issue with FF is what stops griefers? If you have played archeage you would know even your own faction will turn on your easily and kill you  for fun.

 

I'm ok with that (probably cause I was usually that person lol), but I like to have the choice. I really find it to be a pain to have to worry about accidentally killing someone who I'm trying to work with. But if there was a toggle skill I could just turn on when I did want to PK, that'd be nice. So no to accidental FF, yes to intentional PK. That'd be the ideal scenario for me.

Edited by leiloni

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Spies in the Zerg guild are always its downfall....

 

tumblr_my6jrrGzoS1qevo2jo8_250.gif

 

I'm always simultaneously impressed with the folks who have the patience to do that while saddened (or irritated maybe? dunno) at the idea of betrayal.

Edited by leiloni

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I played it a lot as well but found when it actually launched and the game had been out a while the prison/karma system actually made people think twice about own faction kills, at first people thought it was funny being in prison but then they realised it was just a pain.

Maybe it was just the server I was on but thought it worked quite well AA had some good features shame about a lot of the other stuff that screwed it up.

 

Except for the fact that it was extremely easy to keep your Crime and Infamy points low and also extremely easy to just escape from Jail. If you really wanted to PK a lot, it wasn't hard to manage things in order to keep having fun.

Edited by leiloni

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You could always allow AoE pools to stack :) That's how we gamers in Warhammer Online dealt with zergs. Also Shield Walls. 


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." - Ned

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The Zerg problem is alleviated (and I note I didn't say solved) by a number of things Crowfall is doing:

Defensive positions: On it's own, this isn't quite so big a deal. However, a properly entrenched enemy can take out a good portion of the zerg.

Full PVP Loot: Yeeeup. Did that Zerg just die? Sweet. They just supplied the enemy. Congratulations.

 

 

That being said, I am still a little worried about a massive firing line of confessors raining fireballs on a position... hoo boy.

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