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peekachew

Zerg Restrictions

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This has been a problem in every single mmo in existence, and it seems the side with the most typically wins. As most know, in real wars this was not always the case. Is there something that will be done to limit the amount in which your opponent can outnumber and outgun you? I really hope there is something in place for this and if there is not, maybe its something we as a community could brainstorm to combat against. For example in Shadowbane, I always thought a  special city spire could have been activated( during banes of course,) if the defending armies numbers were heavily out-gunned by the attacking armies in which it would lessen the damage generated by the attacking army. 


 

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I hope there are no arbitrary restrictions to control player numbers in any fashion.

Then we will probably see empty servers because nobody likes fighting against super un-fair advantages and losing for very long. This is exactly how Shadowbane failed, I applaud your philosophy but in a practical sense, it doesn't work in games. People cannot be trusted to police them selves, this is the reason why we have so much corruption we have to deal with in our own real lives. 


 

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I think for a niche market single server it could work.  It all depends on exactly how not mass appeal they can afford to be and keep things worthwhile for all involved.

 

I do share your concerns, though.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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Must:

- Free aiming (FPS style)

- Friendly fire

- No / minimum crowd control

 

Optional:

- Choke-points in the landscape

- Not displaying someone's clan-name

 

These things will significantly reduce the effectiveness of zergs.

 

What you typically see is a group of 100 people being able to press tab, 1, 2, 3 and people are dying left and right.

If people need to aim properly and are able to hit their allies and they aren't able to chain cc forever things would be a lot harder already.

Especially if you also add the optional things but the must is already good enough for me.

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Must:

- Free aiming (FPS style)

- Friendly fire

- No / minimum crowd control

 

Optional:

- Choke-points in the landscape

- Not displaying someone's clan-name

 

These things will significantly reduce the effectiveness of zergs.

 

Uhm, actually crowd control is absolute necessity, and hard crowd control if you wish to prevent zergs. If we don't have any CC, how are we going to fight against superior numbers, when all that is left is the difference of time to kill, and let's face it. 200 people target calling drop targets faster than 50 guys.

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Must:

- Free aiming (FPS style)

- Friendly fire

- No / minimum crowd control

 

Optional:

- Choke-points in the landscape

- Not displaying someone's clan-name

 

These things will significantly reduce the effectiveness of zergs.

 

What you typically see is a group of 100 people being able to press tab, 1, 2, 3 and people are dying left and right.

If people need to aim properly and are able to hit their allies and they aren't able to chain cc forever things would be a lot harder already.

Especially if you also add the optional things but the must is already good enough for me.

 

Agreed with some, not with others.

 

Having thought put into areas of the landscape to create "strategically rich" areas is good.  I don't think FPS style aiming is necessary, though I'm not entirely opposed to having to aim.  Friendly fire would certainly be something that would cut down a bit on zergs, or at least, their required skill level to be effective.  I think CC is necessary.  Not displaying clan names I'm on the fence about, but certainly see how it would also raise the skill level for effective zerging.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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This has been a problem in every single mmo in existence, and it seems the side with the most typically wins. As most know, in real wars this was not always the case. Is there something that will be done to limit the amount in which your opponent can outnumber and outgun you? I really hope there is something in place for this and if there is not, maybe its something we as a community could brainstorm to combat against. For example in Shadowbane, I always thought a  special city spire could have been activated( during banes of course,) if the defending armies numbers were heavily out-gunned by the attacking armies in which it would lessen the damage generated by the attacking army. 

For the Horde!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I shall bring my Queen Kerrigan also with all her minions. Now that's a zerg.

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I'm a little split, I can understand the need to not have zergs, but if done arbitrarily it can suck the life from what would otherwise be dynamic large scale battles.

Thou given my experience with GW2, god zergs are terrible.

 

Probably the main thing I would have is both friend and for collision detection, but not that people are unmovable objects.  Just enough that you can't have 50 people all standing in the same spot nuking everyone they come across. 

If your group is unorganized you should run into problems, pushing ever closer to organized groups whenever possible.  That should be the underlining goal.

Not to get rid of zergs per say, but outmoded so that it's not a first order optimal strategy.

 

 

The 2nd would to give small organized groups the means to counter them.  Such as siege weaponry, like pots of oil, moats, choke points, the ability to do hit and run tactics.  Maybe a proper night and day cycle, where night is actually dark, and you can hide in it.

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One suggestion that came up towards the end of Shadowbane's run was to apply a debuff to everyone in the area when a bane stone was active. The bane stone and the tree of life would have limited number of slots to protect characters from the debuff. 

 

Seems like it could be a workable solution.


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No strict restrictions, but there should be game mechanics that give smaller groups a chance.

 

For example, any WoW players familiar with C'thun's eye beam?  It was a chaining damage ability that doubled in damage for each target hit- no limit to targets, but they had to be fairly close together to chain.  Make a player spell with that sort of mechanic, damage starts low and it's not very strong against a group of 2-4 players, but after chaining through 10+ players it scales up enough to instant-kill anyone it hits, that sort of thing would discourage mindless zergs.

 

Creative abilities and spells to counter obvious zerg tactics should exist.  

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Agreed with some, not with others.

 

Having thought put into areas of the landscape to create "strategically rich" areas is good.  I don't think FPS style aiming is necessary, though I'm not entirely opposed to having to aim.  Friendly fire would certainly be something that would cut down a bit on zergs, or at least, their required skill level to be effective.  I think CC is necessary.  Not displaying clan names I'm on the fence about, but certainly see how it would also raise the skill level for effective zerging.

FPS aiming makes everything a lot harder and therefore more difficult for zergs. If 10 people can just click on 1 guy in the distance and unleash their abilities the guy would die much quicker. Also, if you'd have a tab targetting / selection system friendly fire would be a pretty weird mechanic I think.

 

Uhm, actually crowd control is absolute necessity, and hard crowd control if you wish to prevent zergs. If we don't have any CC, how are we going to fight against superior numbers, when all that is left is the difference of time to kill, and let's face it. 200 people target calling drop targets faster than 50 guys.

 

To clarify one more thing before I begin with CC I meant hard CC that control the movement of your character.

 

I think that this is a huge misconception but I understand where you're coming from. It all depends on the exact systems that will be in-place though but let me share my thoughts with you.If you just imagine that 50 people will move backwards and CC the 200 people then I can see why you would think that CC is a must. The problem with this however is that it's not a realistic scenario because it's not a line-battle like Mount & Blade for example. The fight will be chaotic and targets are hard to call because everyone is spread out. I also forgot to mention that the names shouldn't be displayed on-top of the characters and should only be displayed on mouse-over. It's also not that only the side with 50 people will be using crowd control, the side with 200 people will be using CC as well. Also, even though CC is useful for both sides, skilled players will be able to hit things regardless of whether their opponent is CC'd while less skilled players have more problems doing so.

 

This is what I've experienced in Darkfall Online vs Darkfall Unholy Wars. In Darkfall Online there were very minimum CC abilities, barely any. In Darkfall Unholy Wars there were many CC abilities and thus making it harder to fight outnumbered. I was able to fight 2 vs 6 before but because of the added CC I wasn't able to do that anymore. Even though the 6 players were less skilled than me and my friend they were able to CC us a lot which makes it easy for them to control and hit us. When I did 1 CC ability and caught one of them I got 3 CC's on me in return. If there wouldn't be any CC or a minimum amount I was able to run and do things without being hindered and therefore making it way harder to kill me.

 

I'm not sure what your background is but please have a look at this random video to get a better understanding of how things would look like (in general).

 

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I'm a little split, I can understand the need to not have zergs, but if done arbitrarily it can suck the life from what would otherwise be dynamic large scale battles.

Thou given my experience with GW2, god zergs are terrible.

 

Probably the main thing I would have is both friend and for collision detection, but not that people are unmovable objects.  Just enough that you can't have 50 people all standing in the same spot nuking everyone they come across. 

If your group is unorganized you should run into problems, pushing ever closer to organized groups whenever possible.  That should be the underlining goal.

Not to get rid of zergs per say, but outmoded so that it's not a first order optimal strategy.

 

 

The 2nd would to give small organized groups the means to counter them.  Such as siege weaponry, like pots of oil, moats, choke points, the ability to do hit and run tactics.  Maybe a proper night and day cycle, where night is actually dark, and you can hide in it.

Having played both Shadowbane and GW2 what you see as a zerg in GW2 is nothing compared to what occurred in Shadowbane. In GW2 the max population for a borderland in WvW is 100 total, in shadowbane there were fights where one side alone would field 300 to fight the others 50. That is the type of imbalance the OP was talking about, not the 60 on 30 you see in GW2.

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Yeah, no artificial caps on player numbers please. 

If there is a zerg on the server, then the rest of the server should band together and deal with it.

 

We want a game without as many 'caps' and 'restrictions' as possible.

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I'll be the one to state it plainly since there is players coming from other games and never experienced what the SB players went through in an open world PvP with no cap restrictions. First I'll lay out the history and the implications for here:

 

When Shadowbane first came out in 2003 Ubisoft inked a deal for the Asian distribution of the game to a company called Entranz. When the game open most of the players did what the NA and EU players did on their own area restricted servers: fought as small guilds against each other and kept real life politics out of the game. However there was one group that did not and that was the China Nation guild (CN). They formed a large guild that outnumbered all other players combined and dominated the server they were on. Over time the server population dropped as players left due to CN and Entranz as company went bankrupt. Ubisoft decided to remove some of the service area restrictions and most of the Asian players moved to the EU servers where CN again did what they did on the Asian servers with again the same results of server closings to the point Ubisoft did away with the EU servers and they came to the NA servers. When that happened the EU player base that came over told us what CN did there and we must not let them get a foothold on the NA servers...we blew them off and said it was just more players to kill. Well CN then went on to kill at least 4 servers over 4 years each after fighting long running server wars wearing down the server pop and the game finally died. When the emulator projects started the EU/NA player base asked the devs to put in hard caps because of CN but they didn't believing CN when they said they learned there lesson...most of the guys I played with stopped playing due to the CN zerg on the emulator because we had better things to do then fight off 5 to 1 odds every three days to save our towns.

 

CN has already made posts on this forum looking to come here, learn from history or repeat it.

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Having played both Shadowbane and GW2 what you see as a zerg in GW2 is nothing compared to what occurred in Shadowbane. In GW2 the max population for a borderland in WvW is 100 total, in shadowbane there were fights where one side alone would field 300 to fight the others 50. That is the type of imbalance the OP was talking about, not the 60 on 30 you see in GW2.

Ok, so zergs were worse in SB, did you have a point?

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If I may, what is the underlying goal? What are you fighting for? i think in any large scale pvp, logistics should play a part, if there is no logistics zergs are the norm and counterplay is minimal. if i can teleport to a nearby hub, rez nearby etc. then why not zerg? howver if I actually have to travel there, then my army is open to ambush, my numbers will deplete (unless rez'd, legit I believe) and there is counterplay. the key would be to not make zerging so easy.

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If I may, what is the underlying goal? What are you fighting for? i think in any large scale pvp, logistics should play a part, if there is no logistics zergs are the norm and counterplay is minimal. if i can teleport to a nearby hub, rez nearby etc. then why not zerg? howver if I actually have to travel there, then my army is open to ambush, my numbers will deplete (unless rez'd, legit I believe) and there is counterplay. the key would be to not make zerging so easy.

 

That's the magical word when it comes down to the sustainability of a zerg, which is another important thing.

 

Battles shouldn't just be about charging in, swinging left and right and that's it. Siege engines need to be moved from one place to another which will make a siege force extremely slow and vulnerable, scouts should be looking for incoming hostiles, the army need to shelter from bad weather and stay warm by making a campfire, tents need to be put up, the army needs to stay properly fed to prevent starvation. Once the battle is over things need to be looted, repaired and transported back with the usage of wagons.

 

All you have to do is look at how things go in real life, cut out the most tedious parts and make sure it fits in the game by introducing some artificial things.

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