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Why Chests are Bad (QA Question and Response)


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As the Devs requested I am going to keep this as to the point as possible. Here is a list to why Chests in there current state a horrible and adding more does not improve the game-play.

  • Chest cannot be accessed unless you own the fort... .
  • Currently chests get looted on the cool-down, we have timers setup.  log in, stealth loot the chest, log off.
  • Chest completely devalue actual harvesting.
  • Chests literally break the entire game-play loop of gatherers in the world needing protected...
  • Chest still create scheduled pvp as they are only accessible on a timer, either by fort, or by cooldown.
  • Chests are a grab and go and require no time commitment to gather as such they do not create hot zone. They are more like quick stops for potential free loot.
  • Chests are the classic game wealth centralization issue - it's a very low risk, very high reward action.
    • The people with the most people are going to have access to the most forts, in tern they will have the most resources at the lowest amount of risk, reducing the reason to play. To quote a guild mate (Doomstove) "if you know you can capture 10 forts and do 10x the work of farming pigs, why would you farm pigs?"

Suggestion - Make areas on the map that require a player to stand and be active to gain resources. Encourage PVP hot zones at all times of the day.

  • Example. At a mine quarry there would be a zone that when a player is standing in the zone it fills a bar that pops out doobers over varying quality of ore.
  • Example. Smash and grabs. Locations appear at random on the map that require players to destroy objects. (think motherloads on steroids, that can just be attacked and would cause resources to fly out)

Please post other reasons why the current chest meta is harming the game. If you have suggestions please post them as well.

 

 

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If you want to get non timer pvp into the world, you dont need to add more chests. Just remove the timer from forts, randomize the chest spawns between top of the hour and bottom of the hour per fort. Now you have multiple points around the maps where people can fight over rewards constantly. It also removes the alt camping on timers loot fest there is currently.

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I like the smash and grab idea.. what if there were "deposits" around, being worked by thralls(miners, lumberjacks, skinner, ect) and you had to defeat all the thralls, including a boss "foreman" to be able to look the resourse deposit.. these could spawn at random intervals around the map (or even with Forts. Make forts like thrall resource camps)

Xeilias - Through Strength of Arms, We Bring Peace

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8 minutes ago, Grivyn said:

If you want to get non timer pvp into the world, you dont need to add more chests. Just remove the timer from forts, randomize the chest spawns between top of the hour and bottom of the hour per fort. Now you have multiple points around the maps where people can fight over rewards constantly. It also removes the alt camping on timers loot fest there is currently.

I like this idea but it does not fix the nature of chest loot - "Chests are a grab and go and require no time commitment to gather as such they do not create hot zones. They are more like quick stops for potential free loot. " Moving the chests still results in who ever gets there first grabbing and moving on. There needs to be a mechanic that forces the player(s) to slow down and have to be active in an area to encourage PVP hotzone play and increase risk v reward.

Edited by Nym

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We do need forts to be on set timers, to get more likely PvP encounters. They could consider four 30 minute windows each day, instead of just one window. There is nothing wrong with scheduled PvP,. In my opinion, forts cause some of the problem, but most of the problem is the world at large.

  • No chests with dust or gold, only building mats
  • No more refining building mats into crafting mats
  • Dust from dust mob camps - dust primary sink crafting
  • No more dust from harvesting, only from mobs
  • Each zone spawns only a select few types of harvestable - only certain mobs, only certain trees, only some ore, only some stone, only some domain discipline droppers - we must have surplus and shortage
  • Each zone has one type of fort material
  • Gold from gold camps - gold primary sink city maintenance (needs to be implemented, badly)

Years ago, I made a post in a thread on in-game economy, that I strongly suggest ACE revisit. With the uniform distribution of resources we have now, there is no reason to leave our bubble. Make us want to leave our bubble because we need something else. If I sign-in on off-hours, I should know that I can help my guild by going to enemy territory and harvesting or farming. Right now, I stay in my safe little bubble with everything I need within 500m of my keep. A keep with immortal walls and immortal guards who can see stealth. Let's put together the whole puzzle, please!

 

Edited by McTan
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Here's an idea.

Caravan turn ins have a chance to reward the player with a key.

Defender Captains have a chance to drop a key.

Keys can also drop from harvesting.

Keys are required to open chests in forts.

People who can't own a fort can trade keys to fort owners for resources/gold. Trading between guilds will need to be enabled in temples and the free city.

Edited by Arkade
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't care about timers or gaming outpost respawns, chests are simply a boring mechanic for me.

While adding chests might make outposts more valuable, it would be more of the same and not make the overall game any more exciting, challenging, or deep.

Many games from the early days of MMOs up to more modern titles have various systems in place to reward player actions in the moment that can be seen in the game world and for their personal progression. Outposts capturing could provide pretty much anything with points and a handful of chest resources/items being low hanging fruit.

Conquest Mechanics (Capturing POI/Land) outside of Scoreboard value:

  • Provide buffs/debuffs map or campaign wide (crafting, harvesting, PVE performance, strength of strongholds/guards)
  • Influence power of attackers/defenders during Sieges and access to Siege weapons/defense tools
  • Add more complexity to Siege with tasks/events leading up to the Siege window and during it
  • Grant access to high value PVE areas
  • Grant easier travel/respawn/banking (faster travel on roads, access to more respawn and banking points, more world banking space, faster respawn)
  • Increasingly difficult to control multiple POI as Seasons progress along with capped/diminishing returns and upkeep costs
  • Would benefit from more POI per map/campaign and areas with only one way in/out with chokepoints
  • Capturing X POI could speed up the seasons and trigger world ending events. This type of mechanic would get people logging in and caring.

Individual-Guild-Faction Rewards for all Roles

  • Cosmetics
  • Achievements
  • Trinkets with minor stats
  • Titles
  • Trophies
  • Relics/Artifacts/Items for EK
  • Minor stat boosts to the numerous stats that aren't dmg/heal/armor
  • On-going Leaderboards (See Albion Online)

Such things can be account wide, per vessel, per campaign, transferable to characters, limited duration, have upkeep requirements.

These things will get me to log in and play the game. Running around the world standing in circles, chest or not, isn't going to cut it. Brief siege timers for a limited number of guilds aren't going to cut it.

These types of things benefit solo players to small guilds to mega alliances.

 


 

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With regards to my idea on forts and chest. I think they should be live 24/7 keeping the same guards at the same strength. So a solo player would be very hard pressed in taking it but spawns a chest randomly. Now with regards to the outpost, they should have an impact on the forts loot. So lets say there are 10 in that zone and you own 5 of them when that chest spawns, then you get half of the full loot reward. While whoever owns the other fort in that zone and control 2 of the outpost only get 20% of that reward. If there is a third fort and that guild doesn't own any of the outpost they don't get a chest spawn. This now allows for the solo player to cut off resources from that guild they are getting ready to siege and go to war with. 

Edited by Sirktivo
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If you wanted to make the world more connected. A possible Idea to remove chests while still having a Chest like gather processes.

Suggestion

  • Connect major resource hubs to Refineries. (Connecting a Mine to an Ore Refinery, A Leather Camp to a Tannery, etc...)
  • Refineries would become "outposts"that can be controlled using the capture and hold mechanic.
    • These can be capture or lost at anytime. No timer
  • NPC caravans (pack pigs with guards) will move from the major resource hubs to refineries.
  • NPC caravans carry raw materials from the mine of varying quality and can be killed for loot.
  • If the NPCs reach the refinery they will deposit whatever they carried into a chest at the refinery. Whomever controls the refinery can loot the chest.
    • This means if players have not been actively gathering in the area a build up of resources would be available at the Refinery
  • The route between refineries would always pass by at least 1-2 traditional outposts, giving more incentive to control them as safe havens or places to launch attacks.

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1 hour ago, Nym said:

I like this idea but it does not fix the nature of chest loot - "Chests are a grab and go and require no time commitment to gather as such they do not create hot zones. They are more like quick stops for potential free loot. " Moving the chests still results in who ever gets there first grabbing and moving on. There needs to be a mechanic that forces the player(s) to slow down and have to be active in an area to encourage PVP hotzone play and increase risk v reward.

This. I'd much rather outposts provide an ongoing buff or information advantage.

Eg.

  • small harvesting buff per outpost owned in the zone?
  • outposts periodically call out enemy locations in event log? - eg. "Outpost at R14 reports seeing 2 unique enemies in the last 5 minutes!"
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I also want to note that after reviewing the QA again this comment made me so mad and shows a disconnect by @jtoddcoleman and how things are actually implemented and functioning in game https://clips.twitch.tv/PlacidAmorphousSheepDancingBanana

This is not intended to be mean spirited it was just so disconnected and felt like a slight at the playerbase when we as a community have been discussing this issue for awhile and for JTodd to throw us under the bus while also not understanding the current implementation is rage inducing.

You don't just run around grabbing chests. That's not how they have been implemented for a long time. Chests are gatekeeped behind owning a fort, Which is set to a timer. Chests themselves are set to a timer and that timer resets on loot. Guilds who own the fort have control over the chest loot and knowing the timer. Even when forts are neutral the looter controls the timer on the chest and as such is free to stealth log in, loot the chest and log out.

Edited by Nym

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@jtoddcoleman  Citation: "If other players are also there running around trying to loot those chests. That's not a stupid activity. You gonna end up fighting those players over the chest (which is what we want). So its very rare when I have somebody tell me "No I don't want that PVP activity. I want more PVE activity, don't shortcut the PVE activity". So I think I just kinda disagree with you there on that." November Q&A, 1:00:12 - 1:00:47

Issues with loot chests:

As a player who played Crowfall from March to November 2020 for more than 1'000 hours, I can say that the things which looked potentially good on paper many times did not work in real conditions. As you said during the Q&A, that's why players' feedback is so valuable for you because we actually play the game.

1. While forts have been a good addition to Dregs campaigns, the only PVP it creates is 15 minutes before the siege window closes. All other time, which is exactly 23 hours and 45 minutes, forts are dead and create nothing except boredom of running between them (or logging in and out with your alt vessels). That makes CF feel like running simulator and opening chests and looting them has nothing to do with fun. ACE guys can try it out and experience it themselves.

2. Moreover, those chests have created a lot of pressure onto the Guild Leaders because chests appeared to create a lot of conflict inside the Alliances (any of your allies have access to it and can loot it). That resulted in numerous conflicts over those chests and who actually could loot them. Which became a mini-game itself inside Crowfall similar to "AMONG US" where you need to find that impostor who loots your chests. Players had to sit and monitor the chests hours and even days long to find out who is looting them... many people were kicked, alliances were disbanded because of that.

3. Not to mention that chests just kill almost all the harvester needs and literally killed the economy with overflood of resources;

4. Finally, if you play a few times during the siege hour and try to hunt for forts, you will see that even with fort chests you and your enemies will just run circles around the maps capturing and re-capturing those forts after each other. This already DOES NOT create any significant amount of PVP with forts. Then most likely, it will also NOT create any PVP with Outposts either because there are even more outposts in the world and the possibility that groups will meet each other is even lower. Especially outside of the siege window when the population is 5 times lower. Doing nothing except running around is even worse then farming mobs.

Thus, while forts seem to a good concept overall, the chests seem to be a boring way to implement it which: create just a mere PVP action (15 minutes a day), create disruption and burden on guild leaders and inspire conflict, and they break the economy loop. Finally, running circles usually does not create PVP, conversely it adds uninteresting and uneventful PVE grind: running simulator with opening chests and running to the nearest bank to store it.

 

Suggestions:

1. Move loot chests into keeps (as an upgrade to buildings) - this will inspire siege activities, increase the value of keeps, increase the value of building up several keeps by one guild/alliance and increase the motivation to defend it;

2. Move pack pigs inside forts, make people fight for those pigs, change the fort siege window mechanics (I'd leave it open for siege for much longer if not for the whole time);

3. Decrease the overflow of resources, increase scarcity for resources:

* decrease the number of mob camps, so that people will meet each other when they go out to farm mobs for resources (1 or 2 camps of the same-type mobs per campaign is more than enough);

* decrease the number of resource locations on maps;

* separate resources from each other across the campaign: put Ore in Nime Nemesida map, for example, put stone into Yakamodo map, put wood into Nakastrio... etc. So that players would have to leave their home base locations and would have to go to other locations to risk and find lacking resources;

4. Add gathering buffs to outposts, for example, make them have buffs like God's outposts just shorter, for 20-30 minutes, for example, which will increase harvest critical chance, or beneficial harvest chance or the like. Or you can also add a high rank resource node to outposts which has increased resource drops and will be defended by the outpost guards (increase guards strength there as, well).

 

Summary:

The chests mechanics actually devalues a lot of aspects of the game and you could see it by the immediate reaction of the players during this Q&A. Loot chests currently do not increase PVP by themselves (only during 15 minutes a day, but that's pretty much it). Loot chests do release some pressure on resources for bigger guilds but they can be much more valuable inside keeps: this eliminates grind aspect, increases value of keeps, keeps that functionality for big guilds where many people just log in for siege time. There is currently a problem in Crowfall that the resources are plentiful and chests make this problem even worse. There are many other ways to (actually) inspire PVP and to make outposts and forts valuable assets of the game. Loot chests at the first glance seem to be a very simple decision which is easy to implement but in reality they do more harm to the game economy, does not bring much of PVP and make the player experience pretty boring overall (running across the dead land for hours and hours is not fun - check out the feedback from YouTube reviewers about Crowfall, they always mention that).

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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1 hour ago, Nym said:

If you wanted to make the world more connected. A possible Idea to remove chests while still having a Chest like gather processes.

Suggestion

  • Connect major resource hubs to Refineries. (Connecting a Mine to an Ore Refinery, A Leather Camp to a Tannery, etc...)
  • Refineries would become "outposts"that can be controlled using the capture and hold mechanic.
    • These can be capture or lost at anytime. No timer
  • NPC caravans (pack pigs with guards) will move from the major resource hubs to refineries.
  • NPC caravans carry raw materials from the mine of varying quality and can be killed for loot.
  • If the NPCs reach the refinery they will deposit whatever they carried into a chest at the refinery. Whomever controls the refinery can loot the chest.
    • This means if players have not been actively gathering in the area a build up of resources would be available at the Refinery
  • The route between refineries would always pass by at least 1-2 traditional outposts, giving more incentive to control them as safe havens or places to launch attacks.

Yes, I also expressed the idea of making refineries more important in the game in one of the big posts on this topic. It seems like a good idea to get rid of caravansaries in keeps and leave only refineries for refining resources. Also make them like an outpost which you'll need to capture before being able to use it. That opens doors to a lot of PVP activities right there.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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How about get rid of all chests and forts.  I don't see the purpose in them.   You want mats you should be out in the world harvesting ,out killing mobs or doing pack pigs to drop off at the refinery.

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Would like to see fort chests have a 3hr respawn time that is displayed somewhere either on map or when you go to the fort.

When timer hits 0 forts walls can be attacked aswell as the guards and after 15 minutes chests become lootable to everyone (Should have a 3 second open time or something aswell.
This way chests become a small scale pvp hot spot where u can bust through the walls and loot them from the enemy.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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The whole point of Forts is that there is a daily hotspot to fight over for medium-sized pvp groups. The chests are only there as the loot delivery mechanic. Picking up your loot in a Fort isn't intended to create pvp, the pvp already happened to gain control of the fort. In Shadowbane owning a mine deposited the loot directly into your guild warehouse for 24 hr  - in CF there isn't any equivalent tech for that so the loot shows up in a fort chest.

The Fort Capture mechanics could be improved, the vulnerability window is an hour but only the last 10-15mins matters for the cap.

We need some different activities/hotspots for solo or small group pvp, that's not what Forts are designed to provide.

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4 hours ago, Grivyn said:

If you want to get non timer pvp into the world, you dont need to add more chests. Just remove the timer from forts, randomize the chest spawns between top of the hour and bottom of the hour per fort. Now you have multiple points around the maps where people can fight over rewards constantly. It also removes the alt camping on timers loot fest there is currently.

I like this, except lets put it at Outposts 😛

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Several problems with chests
- They dont realy lead to pvp you not there long enough for anyone to find you as u loot and scoot
- Fort chests are free afk loot you loot log off on a character and wait and hour and log back in to do it again aka afk loot generation and then recall with the loot to bank it safely
- Forts activity chest activity is nothing after siege time

Some fixes i would do to help with chests.

Fort changes
- Carrying Timber/Ingots/Boulders should block recalling this forces people to take fort loot to a bank where they will have some risk involved to get it back safely (Almsot tempted to say it should block stealth aswell)
- Chests should respawn on a set time there should be some variable (So in-between 1 hour to 3 hours for example) so it harder to set a clock on
- Forts wall and guards should not be invunerable outside of seige timer so guild can attack forts and try and steal the chest chests should have a 10 second cast time to open and is interrupted via damage guard dmg so we cant realy pull guards out and ninja chests
- Walls/guards being hit should notify the owner of the fort
- Forts loot should not include gold or dust just resources mainly for building keeps

Outposts
- Message pops up in event tab 2-5 minute prior to chest spawning notifying everyone in the zone this should be enough time to rush to an outpost but not enough time to pull in a large group (You have an event tab i feel you should use it for more things)
- Chests has a 10 second opening time reduce ninja looting
- Chests are on a variable timer (Between 1-3 hours for example loot depends on the duration they havant been up for so more items on 3hr respawn)
- Outpost chests should include one of the following gold/dust/Rare chance of chaos embers/small resource bundles these are 1x1 size item in eventoy that can be taken to refiners and broken down for a small amount of resources (logs/stone/ore/hides/rare chance of minerals/gems) these will be random quality between white/green/blue and you cant tell what you will get form the bundle since there all white quality. I feel 30 or so resources at random would be suitable amount for these items, as for gold amount 1k per hour should be about right so 1.5 hr respawn chest would yield 1.5k gold, Dust your looking at 100 dust and hour or 1 ember an hour.

The trick with these is to have them spheritic respawn so we dont have zerg patrolling the zone hunting them on spawn to allow for spur of the moment loot chance for people just roaming or fareming in small groups.


 

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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