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Knight 6.2 Live Feedback


Ranik
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I've posted this in the Test forums but now that 6.2 is live and most of these issues haven't been addressed I'll go ahead and make this thread for ongoing Knight feedback.

  • Swordsman should be changed to “Weaponmaster”, “Man at Arms” or something similar  and the passive ability made to be able to work on any 1h weapon. That way you can have people using Swords, Axes, Maces as they wish rather than just arbitrarily being locked into Swords. This also opens up more build options for DPS Knights rather than being locked into +Slashing Damage Domains / Disciplines. 

 

  • Retribution Slash should be changed to Retribution strike and made available for Mace Users Aka the Sentinel. Changed to retribution strike and works with Maces.

 

  • Retribution Slash damage reflect needs to be improved greatly. Currently the reflect damage is so low it’s not worth using. The damage should be calculated BEFORE armor damage reduction occurs. The ability shouldn’t punish me for putting on more armor. Changed to grant 50 thorns.

 

  • Knight Yells need to scale better with weapon damage. If I am doing damage, at least allow it to scale with my weapon.  Some yells damage buffed.

 

  • There are 14+ different "Bleed" abilities across 6 classes and 4 disciplines. Either make them work together better or get rid of bleeds in general. I shouldn't feel like 50% of my damage is "overlapping" with 5 other classes and we are ruining each others actual damage output. Fix it or at least acknowledge it rather than repeatedly ignoring the issue.

 

  • Most Defensive nodes on the Knights tree are not worth taking under any circumstance.

 

  • Health Regen is Useless. Full Stop. Period. End of Story. It’s not useful on Knight and it’s not useful on any other class. At every opportunity, replace Regen with Resist all % or More Health. If you insist on keeping Health Regen, increase Regen numbers by 10x

 

  • Vitality- +450 Health and what else? Nothing. Not worth taking compared to other class talents. Increase Health to +750 and/or add some Resist all 2-3%. Changed to add 1.5% resist all. A bit weak but its a start.

 

  • Hardiness- 15 Health Regen and 1% Resist is completely and utterly useless. Replace with 3% Resist All & +10 Stamina for better Secutor Blocking.

 

  • Juggernaut Currently this stacks up to 5 times for 1% reduction per stack for a total of 5%….. This is bad. Replace each stack with 3% damage reduction for a total of 15% reduction.   Up to 2% per stack for 10% Total. A good improvement. 

 

  • Resolve At 20% Health, it will heal for 300 health a second for four seconds +Energy and Stamina. This can occur once every 90’s. This is weak on an extreme level. Turn this into an automatic chance at a Barrier on receiving or dealing a critical hit. ANYTHING would be better than it’s current incarnation.  Changed to 40% / 60s. Better but still not great compared to [Spite] or [Endurance]

 

  • Domains- Justice should not be the universal Domain for Knight promotions, it is useless for the Swordsman. Battle easily fits into any of the Promotion classes. Instead setup Domains as follows. 

 

 Swordsman- Battle, War, Death

 

 Sentinel- Battle, Justice, Music


 Secutor- Battle, Protection, Nature

 

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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@Ranik Great review!

@CrowfallCentral I wrote this up before reviewing what Ranik put up and I think we hit the same notes on the defensive side. Swordsman need a complete review. It is not worth taking over either of the other 2 classes. I have tried several different builds and even with the recent changes to Crit with obliterate, it is not worth a dam. Anyone playing a swordsman currently will be severely limiting themselves.

Sentinel is getting there and I need to see how much the new changes add to the build.

Secutor is where it's at and I expect most knights to play a secutor with little interest in sentinel and no interest in swordsman. Below are some of my thoughts and suggestions, this is specifically outlining skills that I think NO ONE will ever want to take on purpose. 

 

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Vitality.

Worthless. A bonus 450hp is just not enough to matter, especially over the alternate of AP and wpn dmg, not even close. This skill wont be used by 90% of knights, especially considering the following on Shield Bash.

Suggestion to fix this is to also give some mitigation, AP or Stam.

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Shield Bash.

A prior staple of the Secutor knight, now reduced to worthless. To properly use this, you need  the “Shield Master” Disc to make it so that shield attacks proc the shield bash. The damage on it is also not what it used to be, not sure what changed. 

Suggestion to fix this, give Shield Bash to all knights like before and turn this skill into Shieldmanship from the Shield Master Disc. 

Suggest changing Shield Master to also give an illusionary shield and remove Shieldmanship.

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Hardiness.

Also worthless. Health Regen has never been a factor in any way at any time since the creation of Crowfall. Please either remove it altogether or make it worth something.

The physical resistance is also a non factor. A 1% increase isn’t worth a dam to anyone. 5% maybe but coupled with a worthless Health Regen would still make this hard to take.

Suggestion, make the Physical resist a “Resist All” and increase to +500

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regens realy need to be 100-150 minimum ever 3 seconds to even consider taking.

For ranger i made the suggestion to make there 350hp +15 regen node into a 350 and 150 hp regen and then there 2nd defence node which was just 450hp into a 350hp node+ -1 on regen rate, making it tick ur HP regen every 2 seconds instead of 3 so taking both was very benefitial. could work on knights aswell.
These are both stats already in game in detail tab so shouldnt be hard to do.

Although knights probaly seem right to get the armor (Or healing received) instead of regen since there spose to be armored, regen made more sense for ranger tree.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would say once again that swordsman should return to plate armor. In large scale fights is dying so fast and the heal from stuns is not enought to keep him alive. And many times you dont even stun someone cause some1 else did and you didnt even get the heal. We need more survivability on them. They are freaking Knights...

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3 hours ago, Gzas said:

I would say once again that swordsman should return to plate armor. In large scale fights is dying so fast and the heal from stuns is not enought to keep him alive. And many times you dont even stun someone cause some1 else did and you didnt even get the heal. We need more survivability on them. They are freaking Knights...

The swordsman is the most mobile class in the game, this is how they survive.  The situation you've stated is not ideal for them.  Other classes/specs are better suited for front lining in larger scale fights.

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2 hours ago, Atraeus said:

The swordsman is the most mobile class in the game, this is how they survive.  The situation you've stated is not ideal for them.  Other classes/specs are better suited for front lining in larger scale fights.

I hope ACE makes a chart that breaks down what every class/promo is good at doing so people don't waste their time trying to play what they want how they want. Picking something called a Knight and then Swordsman and then realizing you aren't meant for engagements with more then a handful of people might be frustrating.

 


 

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10 minutes ago, APE said:

I hope ACE makes a chart that breaks down what every class/promo is good at doing so people don't waste their time trying to play what they want how they want. Picking something called a Knight and then Swordsman and then realizing you aren't meant for engagements with more then a handful of people might be frustrating.

Yeah I see your point in the perspective of guidance and how to attract players.  To be fair, I never said swordsman were not meant for large engagements.  I simply said that mobility is how they survive, not mitigation and healing.  They could certainly recommend some solid starter templates for classes; I'm sure they have some in mind when developing discs.  Maybe a "difficulty" rating would help? 😁

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3 hours ago, APE said:

I hope ACE makes a chart that breaks down what every class/promo is good at doing so people don't waste their time trying to play what they want how they want. Picking something called a Knight and then Swordsman and then realizing you aren't meant for engagements with more then a handful of people might be frustrating.

"You have one particular ability on one particular promotion that makes you run fast, therefore you are a mobility class and shouldn't fight on the front line" is very foolish thinking in the first place so I don't think ACE ever bothered with that. 

 

The Knight is not a mobility skirmisher when 90% of it's kit is for Stunning, bleeding or tanking and wears Mail / Plate. It's just that's how little effort they put into the Knights design and balance. "Oh we couldn't fix Pursuit's charge attack bug as it was previously so we just changed it to a run boost" and then people think the Knight should be on the outskirts of any fight. It's an entire class that's been left half baked since Hunger Dome. :rolleyes: 

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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1 minute ago, Ranik said:

"You have one particular ability on one particular promotion that makes you run fast, therefore you are a mobility class and shouldn't fight on the front line" is very foolish thinking in the first place so I don't think ACE ever bothered with that. 

The Knight is not a mobility skirmisher when 90% of it's kit is for Stunning, bleeding or tanking and wears Mail / Plate. It's just that's how little effort they put into the Knights design and balance. "Oh we couldn't fix Pursuit's charge attack bug as it was previously so we just changed it to a run boost" and then people think the Knight should be on the outskirts of any fight. It's an entire class that's been left half baked since Hunger Dome. :rolleyes: 

You missed the upgrade to pursuit where you hit it and turn into Neo from the Matrix and just dodge everything. Fireballs and axes flying by in slow mo. 😄

Annoys me that some believe certain classes/promos should be relegated in particular parts of the game, especially front and center activities. I have no issue with some builds being strong in certain situations, but the effort for some to be good at practically all things while some barely function in one area is wonky. Low hanging fruit meta is not fun.

 


 

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Honestly I think ACE got the swordsman to a good spot.  It functions well as an executioner, which I believe was the intent.  It is very good at sticking targets and does quite a bit of damage.  It can be very fragile, and does not stack up very well against other larger melee classes.  Good but not too strong, has a niche purpose... I think it gets an A in terms of what they are trying to achieve with class balances.

That being said, it's pretty much the only class I play, so if ACE feels the need to buff it, then I won't complain.  Let's go ahead and bring Neo one step closer to being "The One"

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15 hours ago, Atraeus said:

Honestly I think ACE got the swordsman to a good spot.  It functions well as an executioner, which I believe was the intent.  It is very good at sticking targets and does quite a bit of damage.  It can be very fragile, and does not stack up very well against other larger melee classes.  Good but not too strong, has a niche purpose... I think it gets an A in terms of what they are trying to achieve with class balances.

That being said, it's pretty much the only class I play, so if ACE feels the need to buff it, then I won't complain.  Let's go ahead and bring Neo one step closer to being "The One"

I think Swordsman is in an awkward but functional spot at the moment because I've used it a good bit. I find myself building heavy survivability because the [Endurance] Sustain isn't enough. Your primary gains for going into swordsman is that you get 50% reduction in pursuit cooldown, 100% Crit rate in obliterate bleed and a critical hit % bonus on oath of will.

 

Now that obliterate? Which is your biggest damage ability and is one of your upgrades for swordsman? It doesn't do jack half the time in fights because for the ten thousandth time. @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman"Bleeds don't stack"  I've gone through entire 10 vs 10 fights where I never applied a bleed via Onslaught-> Obliterate because someone else already had applied it. Now some real high IQ individuals in the community said "Just build a better group composition" ........... and with that said ALL melee classes have access to bleeds.

 

It isn't like Frost weaver and Confessor are competing for DoT slots, they just call them other things and they stack just fine.

 

So why in the name of god are all melee classes competing for a single Bleed DoT slot? 

 

Currently in our fights, it seems the most useful thing about my swordsman is not my damage but that I'm fast that I'm able to catch up to people and chainpull / stun. The swordsman feels just like a sentinel but more pursuit oriented than CC oriented.

15 hours ago, APE said:

Annoys me that some believe certain classes/promos should be relegated in particular parts of the game, especially front and center activities. I have no issue with some builds being strong in certain situations, but the effort for some to be good at practically all things while some barely function in one area is wonky. Low hanging fruit meta is not fun.

I agree, I'm still just repeating the mantra of "Please fix bleeds not stacking and make the bottom half of the Knight tree not suck horribly. Meanwhile some other class stuff is outright powerful and can be used in just about any situation.

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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Yeah, I do agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to pack damage into an ability that may not be applied.  I kind of wish that obliterate did something else instead of bleed.  It has to be something significant in order to justify using the energy and the combo.  If they simply upped the damage on the three slashes, and maybe gave them execution scaling that might be cool.  It could also apply an aoe debuff or something like dazzling blades.

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Nope i dont believe Swordsman is in a place to play in large scale fights and be usefull nor to play solo and do well. What's the point of a class running around just avoiding things? We have no aoe damage, bleeds dont work in a large scale fight and we dont even have very high single target damage. We only got an execute and it isn't even the best execute in game. So we do everything below average. It's a bad spec compaired to most other classes. And what's the point to main a situational character if the situations he is good at dont occur that much often? I've found my self being useless for more than a week in GvG. Standing there and dying like a turd in a siege fight. 

Chain pull is broken, i can't even focus a low life char insta pull and execute cause my pull will bring him behind me or to my right so i miss my execute. So frustrating.

To give him plate back i dont think will change the survivability that much but will make the class a bit more sustaiable in big fights. 

Also i agree so much with the idea of changind bleeding to more damage and a debuff, would be way better to iflict some actual damage in fights. 

 

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12 hours ago, Gzas said:

Nope i dont believe Swordsman is in a place to play in large scale fights and be usefull nor to play solo and do well. What's the point of a class running around just avoiding things? We have no aoe damage, bleeds dont work in a large scale fight and we dont even have very high single target damage. We only got an execute and it isn't even the best execute in game. So we do everything below average. It's a bad spec compaired to most other classes. And what's the point to main a situational character if the situations he is good at dont occur that much often? I've found my self being useless for more than a week in GvG. Standing there and dying like a turd in a siege fight. 

Chain pull is broken, i can't even focus a low life char insta pull and execute cause my pull will bring him behind me or to my right so i miss my execute. So frustrating.

To give him plate back i dont think will change the survivability that much but will make the class a bit more sustaiable in big fights. 

Also i agree so much with the idea of changind bleeding to more damage and a debuff, would be way better to iflict some actual damage in fights. 

I'm curious to know your thoughts on some of the other melee DPS who do not wear plate (assassins, rangers, etc.).  Do you believe they suffer from some of the same issues?  If not, what makes them different from swordsman and effective in large fights?  If you can narrow down what that is, I think it will help the Devs make improvements to the promotion.  The only reason I don't think they'll take the plate suggestion is because they have design assertions for the "damage" promotion on all of the classes.  Basically they have made the assertion that more damage should equate to less mitigations.  A change to this assertion would need to be applied across the board which I'm not sure they will do.  I've taken some of the feedback I've heard from this post and aggregated it here.  If you can collate your thoughts together in a list and explain rationale for why you believe they should make the change it will go a long way to helping them:

  1. Chain pull doesn't work so it is very hard to execute low hitpoint targets
  2. Bleed does not stack and there are better classes to make use of bleed mechanics
  3. Execute does not do enough damage (or other classes do it better) [Rationale Needed]
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Other classes have some defence mechanisms better than Knights do. I wont speak for myrm and Champions wich are crazy overpowered atm (For example the survaivability on champions are on another level) , but some classes Like assasins or duelists have escape mechanics (Stealth ulti). Rangers have way more damage (archer 60m range so he can get amazing positioning, Warden is top tier aoe damage atm etc) and i think all of these classes do way better than knights.   Assasins are good at solo again and also can be used in large scale fights as Assasins literaly to put some1 off the battle.   Rangers are Decent in big scale fights. All i am saying is that current state of Knights are not good, and templars as well (except Paladins). I mean Vindicator lacks survivability,  Fury that i now main( does decent but nothing too crazy) would be nice to have a silence more, because stuns and knockdowns share the same window and many of them goes to waste.

I will continue my thoughts about the Knights :

4. I believe Noble blood and Oath of will could use some changes.  Firstly barrier could be a bit stronger. (it's 1-2 auto attacks atm). Also i believe it take too long off fight to cast these 2 skills and damage is low.  I could see it as one skill that deals no damage and only give you barrier and energy recover (and swordsman passive still adds the crit buff)
5. I could see swordsmanship passive activated by a skill. Let's say obliterate or retribution strike, so you can time your dps better. 

6. Execute could go 50% like Archmages. Also not sure about that but with angel of death and finish him still doesn't feel it does crazy damage. 

7. Swordsman get plate armor. 


I could see some of these changes make an impact on Knights gameplay. Also an addition of a defensive skill in general could be nice...

Anyway, i am not a designer, my only experience is the hours i've spent playing games. I just like to give my feedback and discuss about it. 

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3 hours ago, Gzas said:

4. I believe Noble blood and Oath of will could use some changes.  Firstly barrier could be a bit stronger. (it's 1-2 auto attacks atm). Also i believe it take too long off fight to cast these 2 skills and damage is low.  I could see it as one skill that deals no damage and only give you barrier and energy recover (and swordsman passive still adds the crit buff)

I'm in favor of a change to this buff.  I think It makes sense to normalize buff/barrier effects so that they work consistently across the board.  As far as I know, this is the only instance of a "combo" barrier/buff out there.  We can compare this ability to other barriers which have buff effects: Barkskin, Bandit's Armor, Holy Avenger barrier, Mudman barrier... All of them are near instant cast with roughly the same power level as Noble Blood.  I believe that we can say that Noble Blood / Oath currently does not adhere to their design for barriers.

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7 hours ago, Atraeus said:

I'm in favor of a change to this buff.  I think It makes sense to normalize buff/barrier effects so that they work consistently across the board.  As far as I know, this is the only instance of a "combo" barrier/buff out there.  We can compare this ability to other barriers which have buff effects: Barkskin, Bandit's Armor, Holy Avenger barrier, Mudman barrier... All of them are near instant cast with roughly the same power level as Noble Blood.  I believe that we can say that Noble Blood / Oath currently does not adhere to their design for barriers.

Combining the Noble Blood 1:Yell -> 2: Buff into a 1:Yell+Buff would help a good bit for the awkwardness of rotations.  

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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24 minutes ago, Ranik said:

Combining the Noble Blood 1:Yell -> 2: Buff into a 1:Yell+Buff would help a good bit for the awkwardness of rotations.  

I've been asking for this for a very long time. Pretty much every since they added Oath of Will.

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17 minutes ago, Arkade said:

I've been asking for this for a very long time. Pretty much every since they added Oath of Will.

As long as I've been playing knight having to 2 chain that ability has felt awkward. So we are 110% in agreement on that. 

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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Ok so we have like 4-5 people saying noble blood / oath of will should work this way, and to simply have it follow the design principles of other barriers.

If someone with elevated forum permissions could tag the design team, that would be swell.

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