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Passive Skill Training Tree - Why It Hurts the Game


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How does it hurt the game?

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  1. It locks a significant percentage of the game's content behind a timewall.
  2. It forces new players to do boring or repetitive activities like farming mobs, without access to the other systems to break up the monotony.
  3. On the combat side, it gives an unnecessary major advantage to veteran players at the expense of new players that is only mitigated by months of training.
  4. It makes it difficult for new players to contribute to their clans in terms of harvesting or crafting.
  5. It makes it difficult to be competitive with harvesting or crafting vis a vis other players, especially crafting, as your crafted products will be simply inferior.
  6. In a game already unforgiving and punishing to small groups or solo players, it renders them mostly irrelevant in terms of their ability to participate in or enjoy crafting content. This is compounded by the game's fragmented market system, currency inflation, and other economy/item sink issues.
  7. It demoralizes (some) new players when they realize that they have a substantial disadvantage against veteran players that they can't overcome with gameplay.
  8. It involves no interaction with active gameplay. The cure to not being able to do something locked behind the passive tree is to log off and log back in later. You can't farm to speed it up, nor are there contested drops that feed it.
  9. It will hurt new player retention, especially as the game ages.

 

 

Devil's Advocate - What does Passive Skill Training positively contribute?

Spoiler

 

To be fair to those that would rather keep it, it does the following:

  1. It gives a sense of "pride and accomplishment" to players who have played the game a long time and makes them feel good for having lots of stuff unlocked and an "edge."
  2. It does give players a reason to log back in and spend their passive points, potentially unlocking access to some new gameplay element they lacked in the previous month.

 

 

 

Why should it change?

Spoiler

 

When balancing the respective factors, it has a net negative effect which is significant. The significance of that effect increases the longer the game is from launch. New Player Retention in MMOs, especially sandbox PvP oriented MMOs, has historically been problematic. At it's heart the passive skill training tree is an unnecessary roadblock and/or hazing mechanism for new players that is going to make them less and less likely to play the game over time. It does not enhance any systems of the game, nor does it promote the sort of positive incentive to log in and "be active" that a game like Crowfall requires in order to provide content to other players.

It frankly made a lot more sense when it was essentially the reason to buy VIP. Passive skill training is frankly at the detriment to the enjoyment of the rest of the game, but it does act as an effective monetization system, as evidenced by Eve Online where for years people would buy multiple accounts to train multiple lines or leave their accounts subscribed even when inactive to collect the valuable passive skill training they'd otherwise lose out on. (My brother, for example, had no less than 6 active accounts at his peak EvE playing).

These days, that monetization effect remains only in that it gives incentive for people to buy multiple accounts for the purposes of training multiple lines. The monthly income stream no longer exists. It is no longer worth the damage it does to the gameplay experience from a business perspective, when that monetization stream can be channeled with a less detrimental alternative.

 


What should it be replaced with?

Spoiler

 

I propose that the passive skill training tree be completely removed, and one of two alternatives be imposed:

  1. All accounts are simulated as if they have maximum skills. OR
  2. An item drops from 100% outpost captures that provides 5 pips of a basic skill, 2.5 pips of an intermediate skill, or 1 pip of an advanced skill.

To make up for the lost monetization, the following would occur:

  1. Accounts already purchased will keep their six character slots.
  2. Accounts, on game release, will have only one character slot. Additional slots can be purchased for $10. The game would have a reduced price of $40 for the base game (lets get more players in here, but milk them for more money.)

What does this do? You will still need multiple characters to harvest optimally or competitively craft, Current early adopters are still going to have some advantage for being with the game at launch. New players will only have an active gameplay hurdle to jump to access new content (competitive crafting with a vessel statted for it, and access to appropriate tools for harvesting.) Most importantly, the gameplay experience for a new player will be considerably more varied, less restrictive, and will allow them to become meaningful contributors in the world sooner.

 

 

Edited by RobbenDumarsch
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Your cons are largely either speculative, ill informed, or just plain wrong. Combat training constitutes an extremely minor advantage much easier to acquire through gear which any level 1 day 1 p

I would rather there be a montly XP Cap where you gain XP for the passive tree via playing the game however there a cap so you cant get to far ahead each month and by the end of the month everyone get

This relevant in practical terms but not for this discussion. The point RobbenDumarsch is trying to make is that a player could reach that point and it makes new players less viable - which is true.

Your cons are largely either speculative, ill informed, or just plain wrong.

Combat training constitutes an extremely minor advantage much easier to acquire through gear which any level 1 day 1 player can equip.

Harvesting training is the only system that walls players away from content, and only for about a week as they unlock rune tools, being a little bit longer for shovels. One those tools are unlocked a new player can harvest literally everything an established player can, rolling the exact same harvesting loot tables. Further harvesting training raises stats obtainable through other means that make harvesting more efficient or potentially roll more quantity, but not quality of loot. New players are an asset to every guild, especially new players who want to harvest. This is why every guild works very hard to immediately provide its new players with excellent gear, and if needed tools for their job. If your guild does not do this, your guild is the problem, not the passive training. If you expect to have these things without making significant socioeconomic connections with other players, you've missed the entire point of crowfall's economic design.

That said, every player has the ability to comfortably harvest up to rank 6 nodes with just intermediate tools, which are unlocked in a few days, and those are around the ranks of new player areas the player will be farming for their equipment and starting disciplines required to move forward.

This is the only gameplay element locked behind passive training. No other part of the passive system unlocks anything, it simply improves capabilities every player already has from day one.

Crafting is now administered by a similar active system to combat stats, with gear and attributes being the primary contributers to its stat totals. A massive portion of crafting's stats are now present on the new crafting belt item and its upgrade path, in addition to the already existing harvesting/crafting gear bonuses and attribute bonuses. Equipping this item is hard locked behind upgrading the crafting discipline's rarity, and crafting disciplines ONLY drop as a random product of crafting an item. Players can not simply wait out a train and then craft better items than you. They now requrie significant active play, and a significant grind for crafting discs and belts.

The advantages gained by skill training in all of its forms are primarily advantages in regards to efficiency, not output. Players with less training will require more equipment or consumable investment to reach the same statistical values, and in most cases the advantage those values convey is extremely minor, however the caps of those values are hit through a combination of active and passive play, weighted heavily toward active play.

In addition, we have been told, multiple times, that post-launch a catch up system of skill tomes will be added to prevent long term scaling of skills from leaving new players too far in the dust, allowing loot or player crafting by maxed out crafters to produce consumables that directly add skill points up to but not exceeding the total possible skill point gain if that player had been training since release.

The pro you forgot about was "Timed training enforces specialization which incentivizes player cooperation" and this is its primary function. TO make sure you can not simply be good at everything just because you have more time to play, and to force you to make a choice about where your focus lies, and rely on other players who have taken a different path. You're not meant to simultaneously be a master level skinner, quarryman, alchemist, necromancer, smith, and leatherworker all at once unless you've spent years and significant grind doing so. While buying alternate accounts may allow you to more easily wear multiple hats, it will still massively increase the grind needed to wear those hats effectively as well.

The other pro you forgot to mention was that the primary function of timed training is to remove grind requirements and allow the player to focus on practical team play and campaign scoring, as that is the focus of this game, not grinding to max whatever. In a system where the only method to advance is to grind to max, max is the default, and nobody considers playing any part of the rest of the game until they have done so. This results in a game that is even more openly hostile to new players.

I will not comment on whether or not I agree with the many changes that have been made to the passive system over the years but I will say that it serves an important function that does very little to constrain players dedicated to advancement through active play.

I will agree that faucets/sinks and general incentives are not creating incentives for the creation of a strong anonymous trade economy and could be improved. This is a problem the community at large and the developers of the game agree upon, and that its creative lead has stated publicly on Q&A streams he is actively working on. How well his solutions address this problem remains to be seen.

In the future you may want to take a bit more time researching the functionality and impact of game systems before forming lists based upon incorrect information and attempting to solve problems that do not exist, and perhaps avoid framing personal bias as objective reasoning. While I certainly agree that it the game's fault you feel like these things are true by not appropriately communicating these relationships to you, I can not agree with your base assertion given the largely incorrect or omitted data you have presented to support it. It is my opinion you lack sufficient familiarity with the system to accurately or objectively judge what, if anything, is an appropriate replacement for it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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That's incorrect to the point of being intentionally dishonest. I love how your first line is, "Combat training constitutes an extremely minor advantage much easier to acquire through gear which any level 1 day 1 player can equip."

What, are you arguing that someone with a maxed out skill tree naked isn't as strong as a fully equipped player with no passive skill tree pips? That's the biggest straw man since the Wizard of Oz. The bonuses from the combat skill tree are absolutely substantial, and not the "extremely minor advantage" you so boldly called it.

Let's take the actual data instead of truthless propaganda for the absolutely garbage system you so desperately want to protect. Here's what you actually get from the skill passives, these bonuses from the passive skill tree alone, for a fully skilled Templar in mail wearing a greatsword:

12% Anti-Critical Strike
200 Attack Power
150 Support Power  
12% Critical Damage
18% Critical Strike
10% Hard Control Intensity
8% Attack Control Intensity  
5% Movement Control Intensity
3% Penetration: All
15% Penetration: Physical
6% Penetration: Elemental
6% Penetration: Organic
300 Resist: Physical
300 Resist: Elemental
300 Resist: Organic
600 Nature Resistance
600 Disease Resistance
600 Poison Resistance
600 Electricity Resistance
600 Fire Resistance
600 Ice Resistance
600 Slashing Resistance
600 Crushing Resistance
600 Piercing Resistance
15% Attack Control Defense
15% Hard Control Defense
15% Movement Control Defense  
9% Critical Healing Amount
9% Critical Healing Chance
10% Cooldown Reduction: Short
400 Resist All
1300 Health
10 Stamina
2% Power Efficiency
6% Basic Attack Damage
10% Weapon Decay Rate
10% Armor Decay Rate
5% Decay Rate Mail
1% Damage Bonus
1% Slashing Damage Bonus
10% Pathfinding

Anyone can go into the game right now and confirm that this is entirely accurate. I note, you described this as, "an extremely minor advantage much easier to acquire through gear which any level 1 day 1 player can equip."

You aren't able to spout whatever nonsense you want to create a false narrative. Although it is more difficult to repudiate your arguments about meaningful access to the crafting system not being blocked without skill in crafting (only because the data behind experimentation rolls and failure rate is obfuscated, not because there is any more merit to your baseless assertions), anyone who has played Crowfall for more than a few days and has gone into crafting knows what you are saying is not just beyond hyperbole, it's absolutely false. The failure rate for high value crafting for an unskilled crafter and the extremely poor stat rolls that come from their lower experimentation values means that crafting good quality gear and items on even a well equipped vessel, with poor passive skill training, is going to produce end products worth less than the value of the good themselves (which in the hands of a skilled crafter, with vessel, AND passive training, can be immensely valuable). The same is true of harvesting, where it is substantive a waste and lost profit of the natural resources to have some untrained newb with a runehammer smack at a motherlode rather than a skilled gatherer.

I'm ashamed at you, Popeurban. I thought you were intelligent and wished to see Crowfall succeed. Now I realize you are either delusional, extremely unintelligent, attempting to sway the community and the developers with intentionally false misrepresentations, or some combination of the above. You should be ashamed of yourself for wasting the time to even type that nonsensical drivel above.
Edited by RobbenDumarsch
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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Your cons are largely either speculative, ill informed, or just plain wrong.

Combat training constitutes an extremely minor advantage much easier to acquire through gear which any level 1 day 1 player can equip.

Harvesting training is the only system that walls players away from content, and only for about a week as they unlock rune tools, being a little bit longer for shovels. One those tools are unlocked a new player can harvest literally everything an established player can, rolling the exact same harvesting loot tables. Further harvesting training raises stats obtainable through other means that make harvesting more efficient or potentially roll more quantity, but not quality of loot. New players are an asset to every guild, especially new players who want to harvest. This is why every guild works very hard to immediately provide its new players with excellent gear, and if needed tools for their job. If your guild does not do this, your guild is the problem, not the passive training. If you expect to have these things without making significant socioeconomic connections with other players, you've missed the entire point of crowfall's economic design.

That said, every player has the ability to comfortably harvest up to rank 6 nodes with just intermediate tools, which are unlocked in a few days, and those are around the ranks of new player areas the player will be farming for their equipment and starting disciplines required to move forward.

This is the only gameplay element locked behind passive training. No other part of the passive system unlocks anything, it simply improves capabilities every player already has from day one.

Crafting is now administered by a similar active system to combat stats, with gear and attributes being the primary contributers to its stat totals. A massive portion of harvesting's stats are now present on the new crafting belt item and its upgrade path, in addition to the already existing harvesting/crafting gear bonuses and attribute bonuses. Equipping this item is hard locked behind upgrading the crafting discipline's rarity, and crafting disciplines ONLY drop as a random product of crafting an item. Players can not simply wait out a train and then craft better items than you. They now requrie significant active play, and a significant grind for crafting discs and belts.

The advantages gained by skill training in all of its forms are primarily advantages in regards to efficiency, not output. Players with less training will require more equipment or consumable investment to reach the same statistical values, and in most cases the advantage those values convey is extremely minor, however the caps of those values are hit through a combination of active and passive play, weighted heavily toward active play.

In addition, we have been told, multiple times, that post-launch a catch up system of skill tomes will be added to prevent long term scaling of skills from leaving new players too far in the dust, allowing loot or player crafting by maxed out crafters to produce consumables that directly add skill points up to but not exceeding the total possible skill point gain if that player had been training since release.

The pro you forgot about was "Timed training enforces specialization which incentivizes player cooperation" and this is its primary function. TO make sure you can not simply be good at everything just because you have more time to play, and to force you to make a choice about where your focus lies, and rely on other players who have taken a different path. You're not meant to simultaneously be a master level skinner, quarryman, alchemist, necromancer, smith, and leatherworker all at once unless you've spent years and significant grind doing so. While buying alternate accounts may allow you to more easily wear multiple hats, it will still massively increase the grind needed to wear those hats effectively as well.

The other pro you forgot to mention was that the primary function of timed training is to remove grind requirements and allow the player to focus on practical team play and campaign scoring, as that is the focus of this game, not grinding to max whatever. In a system where the only method to advance is to grind to max, max is the default, and nobody considers playing any part of the rest of the game until they have done so. This results in a game that is even more openly hostile to new players.

I will not comment on whether or not I agree with the many changes that have been made to the passive system over the years but I will say that it serves an important function that does very little to constrain players dedicated to advancement through active play.

I will agree that faucets/sinks and general incentives are not creating incentives for the creation of a strong anonymous trade economy and could be improved. This is a problem the community at large and the developers of the game agree upon, and that its creative lead has stated publicly on Q&A streams he is actively working on. How well his solutions address this problem remains to be seen.

In the future you may want to take a bit more time researching the functionality and impact of game systems before forming lists based upon incorrect information and attempting to solve problems that do not exist, and perhaps avoid framing personal bias as objective reasoning. While I certainly agree that it the game's fault you feel like these things are true by not appropriately communicating these relationships to you, I can not agree with your base assertion given the largely incorrect or omitted data you have presented to support it. It is my opinion you lack sufficient familiarity with the system to accurately or objectively judge what, if anything, is an appropriate replacement for it.

Quoted in case you edit your argument later. I need to preserve it for posterity. So everyone can remember you for who you are, every time you talk.

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Compare that against a set of well crafted blue armor, weapons, and jewelry on a well crafted blue vessel. Not even purple or legendary, just blue.

Now compare the resultant numbers against the stat caps.

It's an impressive looking list, but that list describes a practical increase of roughly 2-5% DPS and a whopping 10% resists. Increases outstripped easily by simple playing better than your opponent, or (more likely) better itemizing your gear. I can outstrip any one of those values on one equipment slot and a combination of intelligently itemized slots, talents, discs, and attributes is capable of reaching whichever stat cap you like without any combat passive training whatsoever.

Don't make a big list bereft of context. Take all of the data and paint me a compelling case if you want to change my mind here.

The primary advantage of combat training is reaching caps in cheaper gear as the cumulative effect of all available stat pools is designed to grant many ways to each those caps. "Many ways to reach the cap" is an ACE design mantra for this reason. AP on attributes was recently nerfed because of how ludicrously easy it was to reach the AP cap on white vessels in white gear with no training at all in many cases.

As for crafting, I'd like you to take a moment and actually play the system we have right now as of two days ago.

If your complaint is that you're not immediately viable, I can't help you with that. If your complaint is that the only meaningful vector for progress is passive, you're simply incorrect. If your complain is that it feels bad to not be able to farm to minmax as fast as you can click buttons I can't really argue against that subjective statement of opinion.

Now, I'm sorry that I've obviously made you very angry by disagreeing with your post, but I stand by what I've posted and welcome you to quote the entire thing as it is an accurate assessment of the passive system and its impact on all other systems in the game.

I'm not going to call you stupid. I'm not going to insinuate you'll surreptitiously change your statements to win an internet argument. I'm not going to make conspiratorial claims of willful deception.

I'm simply going to repeat my initial assessment of your post.

I don't think you are operating with a complete set of facts because those facts are not made easily available to you, and I think this has led you to conclusions that don't accurately portray the system you are criticizing.

That's it. I'm not interested in name calling or shouting matches. It is my opinion you are wrong, and I've stated why I believe this.

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10 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

It is my opinion you are wrong, and I've stated why I believe this.

Thank you for that. You described freely receiving 20% of the attack power cap, with the multiplicate bonuses of 12% critical strike chance and 18% critical strike damage, with 1% slashing damage bonus and 1% damage bonus, 6% basic attack damage bonus, 2% power efficiency, 3% Penetration: All and 15% penetration physical (ignoring 1800 armor), as:

"a practical increase of roughly 2-5% DPS"

You can now show yourself the door, as far as I'm concerned.

 

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1 hour ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

Here's what you actually get from the skill passives, these bonuses from the passive skill tree alone, for a fully skilled Templar in mail wearing a greatsword:

How long does it take to accumulate that? 

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1 hour ago, BucDen said:

How long does it take to accumulate that? 

This relevant in practical terms but not for this discussion. The point RobbenDumarsch is trying to make is that a player could reach that point and it makes new players less viable - which is true.

Skill Tomes, however they are implemented, will help these players catch up in the systems that are worthy of criticism. I think you may be overstating the value of the combat stats listed (caps are easy to reach on many of them, and gear is a far larger contributor) but that doesn't make you wrong - it just makes your outrage a little more limp.

Many, many people (myself included) would appreciate this game having more active progression. I would prefer it if passive training was removed entirely. But that ship has sailed and there are a lot of retention and other related benefits to passive training that really help the game as well. Not needing to be logged in all the time but still gaining valuable improvements to your character does have value.

At 3x training last year many of us were capped on several trees and we still really wanted new players because if we equipped them they were able to be effective. Guilds like Vanguard have proven dozens of times that they can login with wartribe weapons and dumpster established guilds in full crafted gear no problem at all because these kinds of stats are meaningful but not the whole picture.

---

All of this nonsense being said your feedback is still very valuable, and while I doubt passive training is going to be going anywhere, discussions like these do tend to contribute to change in these systems. Numbers can and will be tweaked. If you flail around angrily at others who disagree you do weaken your point though.

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Oh also this old school crowfall meme will be you someday too OK.
 

Quote

Imagine being so insecure about your gaming ability that you have to rely on passive skills?  A true warrior would agree that we should all have max passive skills in order to get the most balanced fights possible.  Too bad that some people just want to zerg and not enjoy the thrill of battle with enemies at the same skill level.  I'm going to see if I can get a refund for this hogwash game.

 

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I would rather there be a montly XP Cap where you gain XP for the passive tree via playing the game however there a cap so you cant get to far ahead each month and by the end of the month everyone get XP equal to the remainder of the cap so after each month everyone end up on even playing fields again however playing the game will allow you to active rush something before the end of the month.
This way you can unlock ur runetools and all the choke point and thing fairly quickly via actively playing however at end of the month everyone will get set to the same level again. keeps the gap close but doesnt hinder people and there a reason to actvly play the game at launch instead of waiting for training to unlock the choke points.

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1 hour ago, veeshan said:

I would rather there be a montly XP Cap where you gain XP for the passive tree via playing the game however there a cap so you cant get to far ahead each month and by the end of the month everyone get XP equal to the remainder of the cap so after each month everyone end up on even playing fields again however playing the game will allow you to active rush something before the end of the month.
This way you can unlock ur runetools and all the choke point and thing fairly quickly via actively playing however at end of the month everyone will get set to the same level again. keeps the gap close but doesnt hinder people and there a reason to actvly play the game at launch instead of waiting for training to unlock the choke points.

I like that a lot, it is a nice hybrid approach.

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1 hour ago, veeshan said:

I would rather there be a montly XP Cap where you gain XP for the passive tree via playing the game however there a cap so you cant get to far ahead each month and by the end of the month everyone get XP equal to the remainder of the cap so after each month everyone end up on even playing fields again however playing the game will allow you to active rush something before the end of the month.
This way you can unlock ur runetools and all the choke point and thing fairly quickly via actively playing however at end of the month everyone will get set to the same level again. keeps the gap close but doesnt hinder people and there a reason to actvly play the game at launch instead of waiting for training to unlock the choke points.

 

I haven't seen that idea floated before, man you should promote this heavily try to get this surfaced to ACE. It's possible they haven't thought of this idea yet, but TBH I think it really does solve the fresh player training issue in a very elegant way. It doesn't necessitate gutting the entire passive training system, and also doesn't allow for run-away grind leveling. The concept of the catch-up mechanic could be used to increase monthly cap in increments up to some kind of absolute ceiling tied to last wipe or launch date.

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i tend to post it each time somone mention passive skill tree but often gets overlooked. you can actively increase the cap monthly so people who make an account 4 months down the line the cap could be 4 months worth of training for them and at the end of the current month it pushes them up to where they should be with everyone else.

XP should generare 2 xp every 10 seconds (Current 1x2 for 2 tree) 
Each tree should be capped at a months worth at 1 point so you can put all ur XP into one tree however half way through the month it hit cap and the remainer of the XP will have tpo be split between the 2 other trees so u can dump it all in one tree just like it is now.

Edited by veeshan

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I disagree with some of your assertions on how it hurts the game.

13 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

It locks a significant percentage of the game's content behind a timewall.

The skill trees only lock the first generation of players from crafting intermediate tools and equipping advanced tools, but once they can use advanced tools they can farm the blue exploration discs needed to short cut the skill trees and allow new players to use runetools on day 1. You can also craft everything in the game day 1 with just the white crafting discs. The skill tree doesn't lock you from crafting. Will it be good? Probably not, but that's not your argument.

13 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

It forces new players to do boring or repetitive activities like farming mobs, without access to the other systems to break up the monotony.

I feel like you could describe everything in Crowfall as boring, repetitive, or both, but you don't need training to farm for soul gems or cutting grit. You just need to eat the food and hammer away. You also don't need training, or the disc even, to process raw resources or make fuel. You can make any quality of metal bars, composite wooden planks, or stitched leather with no training at all, and it'll be just as good as a vet crafter. You have access to this on day 1.

14 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

On the combat side, it gives an unnecessary major advantage to veteran players at the expense of new players that is only mitigated by months of training.

The advantages from the combat skill trees are significant, but they're not insurmountable. And it's not "only mitigated by months of training", it's mitigated by good gear and player skill too. If you want, I can break down each of those stats and explain how you can overcome them. I honestly wouldn't mind gutting the combat tree and replacing it with something else, but let's not pretend it's a wall that's impossible to climb over without skill training.

14 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

It makes it difficult for new players to contribute to their clans in terms of harvesting or crafting.

As I said earlier, day 1 crafters can make fuel and process resources, and be just as good as vet crafters. For harvesters, they can run caravans and loot forts for resources and farm Elementals for dust. They can also be a foreman to someone with motherlode training. There are ways to contribute, and I wouldn't say they're all that difficult.

14 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

It makes it difficult to be competitive with harvesting or crafting vis a vis other players, especially crafting, as your crafted products will be simply inferior.

Forts and caravans. No skill training required. Yeah, new crafter's products will likely be inferior to trained crafters, but they can also just sell crafted items that don't require experimentation and have a low enough assembly to the trained crafters so they can shortcut having to craft those. If we ever get to a state where mass producing items is needed, there will be value in shortening the time vet crafters have to spend making base items (which I believe is the eventual goal) .

14 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

It involves no interaction with active gameplay. The cure to not being able to do something locked behind the passive tree is to log off and log back in later. You can't farm to speed it up, nor are there contested drops that feed it.

Again, you're not locked. You can farm blue and purple mats with a new harvester, if not through caravans and forts, then through brute forcing R7s and R8s. And you can craft blue and purple items day 1 as a new crafter. It will be slow, inefficient, wasteful, and you will likely fail, an all-round bad experience, but you can do it. The skill tree doesn't say you can't, it just says you can do it better.

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7 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

Thank you for that. You described freely receiving 20% of the attack power cap, with the multiplicate bonuses of 12% critical strike chance and 18% critical strike damage, with 1% slashing damage bonus and 1% damage bonus, 6% basic attack damage bonus, 2% power efficiency, 3% Penetration: All and 15% penetration physical (ignoring 1800 armor), as:

"a practical increase of roughly 2-5% DPS"

You can now show yourself the door, as far as I'm concerned.

 

From this and your previous posts, it really looks like you have been missing the whole stat cap limits.  

Let me put it simply. 

If the cap is 75%

and your gear gets to to 80%

and your passive training gets you another 10%,

Your cap is still just 75%.

Since it's possible, as far as I know, to hit every single cap with gear alone, AND there are literally no limits on vessels or gear based on any aspect of passive training, it is entirely possible to acquire a vessel and gear that hit max caps on day one with zero passive training. 

Passive training makes it easier to get to those caps, but it's not needed. 

I think your missing that point, or you don't care and really are just plain bothered by the whole idea that someone who has been playing longer than you could have some sort of perceived, numerical, advantage. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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5 hours ago, veeshan said:

I would rather there be a montly XP Cap where you gain XP for the passive tree via playing the game however there a cap so you cant get to far ahead each month and by the end of the month everyone get XP equal to the remainder of the cap so after each month everyone end up on even playing fields again however playing the game will allow you to active rush something before the end of the month.
This way you can unlock ur runetools and all the choke point and thing fairly quickly via actively playing however at end of the month everyone will get set to the same level again. keeps the gap close but doesnt hinder people and there a reason to actvly play the game at launch instead of waiting for training to unlock the choke points.

@ACE-Tiggs Can you bring this up with the devs? It looks like an idea that will keep newbies playing long enoigh to learn the game instead of quitting after a week due to 'passives make old players too strong, I can NEVER catch up'.

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18 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

Devil's Advocate - What does Passive Skill Training positively contribute?

 

To sort of echo @PopeUrban a bit, one of the things you missed here is that it allows players to define themselves. It lets players choose things to be good at, which lets them play a role better in a role-playing game.

One player might want to define themselves as a melee fighter that is good with swords but also heals their friends. Another player might want to try and be the most defensive hard-to-kill tank imaginable. One player might want to distinguish themselves as a master alchemist. Another player might want to do a little of everything. Etc.

The passive system is kind of like a permanent build definition for their account that lets them say "I am a <blah>". I'm not saying it's perfect, but that's definitely an aspect that would be lost if all accounts behaved as if they had 100% max skills.

Edited by nihilsupernum
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On 11/10/2020 at 10:30 PM, RobbenDumarsch said:

It makes it difficult for new players to contribute to their clans in terms of harvesting or crafting.

The problem there isn't the progression system, it's the resource system. For example, in Ultima Online and EVE Online, the resources a new player gathers are of value to veteran players. Conversely, no one here wants a newbie's Rank 1 trash. Changing the progression system doesn't fix a broken, tiered resource/economy system. 

Edited by BucDen
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29 minutes ago, BucDen said:

The problem there isn't the progression system, it's the resource system. For example, in Ultima Online and EVE Online, the resources a new player gathers is of value to veteran players. Conversely, no one here wants a newbie's Rank 1 trash. Changing the progression system doesn't fix a broken, tiered resource/economy system. 

For a while, not sure if it's still true, cutting grit ONLY came from slag, and the only people even remotely interested in harvesting slag were the new players. 

I think that fell apart sometime after GR and gear drops, and then NOBODY wanted to hit slag for any reason. It used to be a gateway to "real" materials, but the fact is that gate is no longer in play. 

Your right.  Besides that I can't think of anything that an account without passive training can get, that an account with passive training can't do better for themselves. 

 

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15 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Compare that against a set of well crafted blue armor, weapons, and jewelry on a well crafted blue vessel. Not even purple or legendary, just blue.

Now compare the resultant numbers against the stat caps.

It's an impressive looking list, but that list describes a practical increase of roughly 2-5% DPS and a whopping 10% resists. Increases outstripped easily by simple playing better than your opponent, or (more likely) better itemizing your gear. I can outstrip any one of those values on one equipment slot and a combination of intelligently itemized slots, talents, discs, and attributes is capable of reaching whichever stat cap you like without any combat passive training whatsoever.

 

15% physical pen is significantly more than a 2-5% dps increase

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