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6.2 Templar feedback/bugs


Kest
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@thomasblair@LordofCake

This feedback is for the devs, but also to give other players an understanding of what Templar is capable of right now.

This feedback is subject to my ignorance on the underlying math that decides damage and healing, so bear with me.  I know enough, but not enough.

Reproach - This ability is crucial for the Vindicator and Fury promos to be viable...and it needs some work.  Here's a quick breakdown:

With the amount of fire damage increases within the talent tree and taking into consideration the value of Righteous Stand damage mitigation and Righteous Parry damage output - the general play-style and order of operations should be as follows:

1. Drop Divine Light immediately

2. While in the radius of DL, use Righteous Stand to mitigate damage, generate Righteousness, and deal melee damage/CC (Righteous Parry).

3. ???

This ability and combo is setup to be - seemingly- a sort of replacement over basic attacks...but its value pales in comparison to the damage mitigation/resource generation of Righteous Stand and the damage output of Righteous Parry.  Radiant Sweep is a nice AOE CC...but Righteous Smash does not provide any value unless Holy Warrior is active (meaning the dmg is converted to holy).  There's also a hefty animation lock to Smash to consider.  Simply put, I don't want to use smash as a means to generate Righteousness or deal damage in its' current form.  In my opinion, I think smash should have the resource generation taken out and have that ability deal % fire damage instead.  If smash dealt fire damage it would create synergies with the rest of the passive tree fire damage bonuses.   And put the ability on a cool-down, but for a duration that doesn't gimp it's use case.

You could also create some interesting promotion class diversity with Reproach as well.

Vindicator - Replace the Judgement enhancement with a Righteous Smash enhancement.  If Righteous Smash is used within the radius of an active Divine Light - X will happen.  X could be a second Divine Light is placed for free.  X could be a bleed for 10 seconds on anyone hit.  X could trigger a buff for 10 seconds that makes the next Righteous Parry score as a full blown AOE attack.  X could trigger Righteous Smash to be full holy damage.  X could trigger a self-heal for 10% HP.  X could be anything.  This is far more interesting and meaningful than reducing Judgement from 2pips to 1.

Fury - Replace the Divine Light enhancement with a Righteous Smash enhancement.  In its' current form, the DL enhancement doesn't synergize at all.  The number one Templar problem is resource generation, so the more people we CC, the less Righteous Stand is generating pips.  To have what is supposed to be our opener immediately AOE CC is not effective.  And we already have Radiant sweep, enough with the AOE KDs :D!  As before - if Righteous Smash is used within the radius of an active DL, X will happen.  I think Fury has enough control as it is, so X shouldn't be more of the same.  I realize Fury is meant to be a CC first kind of style.  I will take on the primary role of CC, but what's the cost?  I'm not asking Fury to deal damage equal to Vindicator.  I'm not asking Fury to heal equal to Paladin.  But, Fury needs to lean on something.  Perhaps X could play into the Domains.  Music is an interesting, but non-viable option for Fury right now...maybe X is a refresh on all active songs.  I would be all about that life.

In general, Vindicator and Fury promos need meaningful Righteousness expenditures to make an impact and be useful.  I believe the changes suggested could be a step in providing that.

 

Shining Armor

This is a dead passive at this point.

The Divine Power passive is the ultimate point, here.  If I want to play the Vindicator or Fury promotions, I can't even entertain the idea of taking Divine Power (which is a solid passive) because the cost would be taking Shining Armor...which doesn't give me anything of true value in return.   We know that Vindicator and Fury will have some sustain issues - so perhaps improving upon the self-healing (maybe 10%?).  Take 5% of Final mitigation cap from Paladin and Fury promos and add it here so Vindicator has an option for taking less damage during Righteous Stand.  Add Song duration benefits here, and perhaps open up the Music Domain to Paladin as well.

 

Retribution

Make this a stacking buff up to 5 stacks.  Have the stacks reset to 0 on the next ability used.

 

Righteous Defense - Heals you for 35% of damage dealt to you while in Righteous Stand

This ability is really insane, but not in the ways you might think.  I think it's bugged - but in it's bugged form, it still carries heavy impact.  If this passive is paired with Righteous Reflections, you are granted a scenario where ALL incoming damage triggers the self heal.  Unfortunately (and probably for the best) - the amount healed is calculated post-RS-mitigation...so if I am mitigating 50% of all incoming damage after resistance and armor calculations are considered; I am not taking that much damage, thus I am not healing that much.  But, the fact that I am healing myself triggers the Divine Power passive (10% incr dmg).  This also creates synergies with Blood Thorn (Thorns applied to those healed) and many other passives.

My suggestion for this passive is to figure out a way to describe it so that the benefits are better understood.  I would change the heal from 35% to 5%; and make the calculation pre-Righteous Stand mitigation.  And perhaps even open this ability up as a stacking support power buff of 3% for up to 5 stacks that lasts 3 seconds?  I wouldn't have the stacks reset on the next heal because...well...gaining 5 stacks can happen in less than a second depending on how many sources of attack damage are in question lol.

 

Hopefully this feedback opens up some ideas and changes.

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3 hours ago, Kest said:

@thomasblair@LordofCake

This feedback is for the devs, but also to give other players an understanding of what Templar is capable of right now.

This feedback is subject to my ignorance on the underlying math that decides damage and healing, so bear with me.  I know enough, but not enough.

Reproach - This ability is crucial for the Vindicator and Fury promos to be viable...and it needs some work.  Here's a quick breakdown:

With the amount of fire damage increases within the talent tree and taking into consideration the value of Righteous Stand damage mitigation and Righteous Parry damage output - the general play-style and order of operations should be as follows:

1. Drop Divine Light immediately

2. While in the radius of DL, use Righteous Stand to mitigate damage, generate Righteousness, and deal melee damage/CC (Righteous Parry).

3. ???

This ability and combo is setup to be - seemingly- a sort of replacement over basic attacks...but its value pales in comparison to the damage mitigation/resource generation of Righteous Stand and the damage output of Righteous Parry.  Radiant Sweep is a nice AOE CC...but Righteous Smash does not provide any value unless Holy Warrior is active (meaning the dmg is converted to holy).  There's also a hefty animation lock to Smash to consider.  Simply put, I don't want to use smash as a means to generate Righteousness or deal damage in its' current form.  In my opinion, I think smash should have the resource generation taken out and have that ability deal % fire damage instead.  If smash dealt fire damage it would create synergies with the rest of the passive tree fire damage bonuses.   And put the ability on a cool-down, but for a duration that doesn't gimp it's use case.

You could also create some interesting promotion class diversity with Reproach as well.

Vindicator - Replace the Judgement enhancement with a Righteous Smash enhancement.  If Righteous Smash is used within the radius of an active Divine Light - X will happen.  X could be a second Divine Light is placed for free.  X could be a bleed for 10 seconds on anyone hit.  X could trigger a buff for 10 seconds that makes the next Righteous Parry score as a full blown AOE attack.  X could trigger Righteous Smash to be full holy damage.  X could trigger a self-heal for 10% HP.  X could be anything.  This is far more interesting and meaningful than reducing Judgement from 2pips to 1.

Fury - Replace the Divine Light enhancement with a Righteous Smash enhancement.  In its' current form, the DL enhancement doesn't synergize at all.  The number one Templar problem is resource generation, so the more people we CC, the less Righteous Stand is generating pips.  To have what is supposed to be our opener immediately AOE CC is not effective.  And we already have Radiant sweep, enough with the AOE KDs :D!  As before - if Righteous Smash is used within the radius of an active DL, X will happen.  I think Fury has enough control as it is, so X shouldn't be more of the same.  I realize Fury is meant to be a CC first kind of style.  I will take on the primary role of CC, but what's the cost?  I'm not asking Fury to deal damage equal to Vindicator.  I'm not asking Fury to heal equal to Paladin.  But, Fury needs to lean on something.  Perhaps X could play into the Domains.  Music is an interesting, but non-viable option for Fury right now...maybe X is a refresh on all active songs.  I would be all about that life.

In general, Vindicator and Fury promos need meaningful Righteousness expenditures to make an impact and be useful.  I believe the changes suggested could be a step in providing that.

 

Shining Armor

This is a dead passive at this point.

The Divine Power passive is the ultimate point, here.  If I want to play the Vindicator or Fury promotions, I can't even entertain the idea of taking Divine Power (which is a solid passive) because the cost would be taking Shining Armor...which doesn't give me anything of true value in return.   We know that Vindicator and Fury will have some sustain issues - so perhaps improving upon the self-healing (maybe 10%?).  Take 5% of Final mitigation cap from Paladin and Fury promos and add it here so Vindicator has an option for taking less damage during Righteous Stand.  Add Song duration benefits here, and perhaps open up the Music Domain to Paladin as well.

 

Retribution

Make this a stacking buff up to 5 stacks.  Have the stacks reset to 0 on the next ability used.

 

Righteous Defense - Heals you for 35% of damage dealt to you while in Righteous Stand

This ability is really insane, but not in the ways you might think.  I think it's bugged - but in it's bugged form, it still carries heavy impact.  If this passive is paired with Righteous Reflections, you are granted a scenario where ALL incoming damage triggers the self heal.  Unfortunately (and probably for the best) - the amount healed is calculated post-RS-mitigation...so if I am mitigating 50% of all incoming damage after resistance and armor calculations are considered; I am not taking that much damage, thus I am not healing that much.  But, the fact that I am healing myself triggers the Divine Power passive (10% incr dmg).  This also creates synergies with Blood Thorn (Thorns applied to those healed) and many other passives.

My suggestion for this passive is to figure out a way to describe it so that the benefits are better understood.  I would change the heal from 35% to 5%; and make the calculation pre-Righteous Stand mitigation.  And perhaps even open this ability up as a stacking support power buff of 3% for up to 5 stacks that lasts 3 seconds?  I wouldn't have the stacks reset on the next heal because...well...gaining 5 stacks can happen in less than a second depending on how many sources of attack damage are in question lol.

 

Hopefully this feedback opens up some ideas and changes.


If you're not using smash you're doing it wrong. Yes the wind up is a huge telegraph but its a great way to get pips in group fights if you need it.  Not so much in 1vs1s or if you're fighting againt multiple melee. Since parry will be stronger in those cases.

Retribution - Highest I've gotten this up to is 9.  Wondering if 10 is the cap on this or if there is no ceiling.

Righteous Defense with the scenario you're talking forces the templar to give something up. I don't see this as an issue and more along the lines of an interesting use of thorns.

 

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15 hours ago, MrErad said:


If you're not using smash you're doing it wrong. Yes the wind up is a huge telegraph but its a great way to get pips in group fights if you need it.  Not so much in 1vs1s or if you're fighting againt multiple melee. Since parry will be stronger in those cases.

Retribution - Highest I've gotten this up to is 9.  Wondering if 10 is the cap on this or if there is no ceiling.

Righteous Defense with the scenario you're talking forces the templar to give something up. I don't see this as an issue and more along the lines of an interesting use of thorns.

 

I am not using smash because I can generate more pips faster and take less damage w/ Righteous Stand than I can with Smash.  The only time this becomes a problem is 1v1 situations with ranged players...ranged attacks don't generate pips (which is good thing lol).  I'm willing to accept that scenario...there are ways around it.  What is important to understand is that when I am fighting a ranged player - say 1v1 - my damage output is through Righteous Reflections (60% dmg returned to source).  If you do the math, the ranged player will ultimately kill themselves.  This works in every scenario.  Solo, group, or "raid."  It's an extremely effective, perhaps the most powerful talent in the entire tree.

 

From what you say, it sounds like Retribution already stacks.  I haven't used the talent yet.  My input on that can be ignored.

 

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1 hour ago, Kest said:

I am not using smash because I can generate more pips faster and take less damage w/ Righteous Stand than I can with Smash.  The only time this becomes a problem is 1v1 situations with ranged players...ranged attacks don't generate pips (which is good thing lol).  I'm willing to accept that scenario...there are ways around it.  What is important to understand is that when I am fighting a ranged player - say 1v1 - my damage output is through Righteous Reflections (60% dmg returned to source).  If you do the math, the ranged player will ultimately kill themselves.  This works in every scenario.  Solo, group, or "raid."  It's an extremely effective, perhaps the most powerful talent in the entire tree.

 

From what you say, it sounds like Retribution already stacks.  I haven't used the talent yet.  My input on that can be ignored.

 

Except I had this scenario yesterday 3 vs 2.  A knight with bow, ranger, and a cleric(assuming radical or arb)  vs 2 paladins.  The ranger stayed at full hp the whole fight with bow and same for the cleric. Only reason I know cleric wasn't a crusader because the knight wasn't being healed and nearly died at one point due to trying to melee us.  The ranged player won't kill himself on you. You'll be out of pips if you're just parrying the whole time without regenerating any.  The rangers ult alone will keep said player up. These new holy clerics will either kill you or stay up before you reflect anything back worthwhile.  If they have any form of life leech that scenario will not be in the favor of you parrying said range attacks.

Now if its melee and they're all on the ground smash is better because of the damage it does and the upside is you'll be at max pips.  Plus its now +2 pips instead of one so its still worth using. Don't get me wrong smash is probably the least used skill in the whole kit but it still has uses.  Less so for a Paladin but more useful for the other two.

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18 hours ago, MrErad said:

Except I had this scenario yesterday 3 vs 2.  A knight with bow, ranger, and a cleric(assuming radical or arb)  vs 2 paladins.  The ranger stayed at full hp the whole fight with bow and same for the cleric. Only reason I know cleric wasn't a crusader because the knight wasn't being healed and nearly died at one point due to trying to melee us.  The ranged player won't kill himself on you. You'll be out of pips if you're just parrying the whole time without regenerating any.  The rangers ult alone will keep said player up. These new holy clerics will either kill you or stay up before you reflect anything back worthwhile.  If they have any form of life leech that scenario will not be in the favor of you parrying said range attacks.

Now if its melee and they're all on the ground smash is better because of the damage it does and the upside is you'll be at max pips.  Plus its now +2 pips instead of one so its still worth using. Don't get me wrong smash is probably the least used skill in the whole kit but it still has uses.  Less so for a Paladin but more useful for the other two.

 

Every class and build is going to have some sort of weakness.  Life leech is one of them, and this is where making some changes to the Templar passive is warranted.  Even if Smash is kept as is; it would be nice to have that ability play into the promos as I laid out earlier.

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