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Why Crowfall is closer to Shadowbane than it is credited for


Nevyn
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I will try to keep this as short as I can.
 
There are basically two different MMORPG models. The Wow Model and the Sandbox.
 
In the Wow model the developers create all the content for you, they create quests, raids, arenas, battlegrounds, fishing contests, factions and reputation to get special items. They create it, they sell it to you, and 2 years later you have done all the content, and they have you buy another expansion with more content to keep you amused for another 2 years.
 
The sandbox model is what Shadowbane and Crowfall use. In brief: Make just enough content so that everyone can fight over it, make the higher the risk, the higher the reward for winning the fight.
 
In Shadowbane when it started and you made a Druid, at level 40 you could train Earhquake, but then you found out that in order to do so you had to find a guild, plant a tree, build a trainer building, level a trainer, and then about a week or so later you could train your earthquake. In the meantime you could farm for hours to get gold, and that elusive godly int rune. Or you could roam the world and kill players, or you could go to the discipline dropper locations and fight in a battle royal to try to escape with the rune. Later they put in Mines to provide resources that you fought over every day, mobs that dropped special armor pieces, and resources like Galvor etc to make slightly better weapons. All things for us to fight over, to pvp for.
 
Crowfall follows this model. It has passive skill training which emulates the waiting for the trainers to rank, but does so much more in the greater scheme of the game. The biggest improvement you can make in game is by getting your first custom vessel made. This is a body you inhabit that has much better starting stats then your first one, and can also be customized with special parts to make it suit its purpose even better. ie. eyes to increase range, or perception. Well, in order to craft one of these vessels you need someone to train Necromancy, and you need to go out in the world and find a few things: The minerals halite and cinnabar (that can only come from stone motherlodes) and body parts that only come from digging up graves. To do this a schedule of events happens, and what is imperative to remember here is that If there are 100 guilds playing then there will be hundreds of people all unlocking this schedule at the exact same time, and resources are limited. First, after about 10 days some people will be able to hit ore nodes and get rough soulgems, these are then crafted into runic tools, that people can start equipping on day 14 to harvest special drops from Rank 6 nodes of stone, ore, trees etc. Since rank 6 nodes only appear in a few zones (all pvp zones, and most are in pvp with inventory drop zones (dregs/campaign) these areas will be highly contested. After you get one of the special drops 'knowledge of the foreman' then you can take it and make a rune that makes hitting stone motherlodes much easier and faster, to get the Halite and Cinnabar you need for the vessel. Finally on day 20, you will have hundreds of players all unlock the ability to equip a shovel, and with this shovel they can now dig up graves. there are only about 6 or so graveyards per zone, each with 4 graves, yielding about 6-7 body parts each spawn (spanws are 10 minutes). So in an hour someone could dig up enough body parts for about 6-7 bodies. Well, these graveyards are going to be hot pvp areas also, and will get hot for everyone at the same time. Kinda like the land rush in Archeage, but you have to fight people to put down your house and continually defend it until it is built.
 
So that is just one example of resources and skills that unlock (schedules) that will generate pvp in Crowfall.
 
Crowfall also has content like Shadowbane, it has keeps you plant a tree in and build up the keep for buffs, and other advantages. You have to defend your keep 2x a week and any guild can take your keep from you during this time period (it is not like shadowbane where only the bane dropper can win). In theory you could have 10 guilds all fighting over the keep, some allied, some not, and allies can turn traitor at the last minute too.
 
Crowfall has forts that generate resources like Shadowbane, chests appear every hour with alot of resources like metal ingots in them. These ingots have to be looted and then taken back to the keep to build up the buildings, or taken to a refinery, refined, so that crafters can use them to make armor etc. All of this is done in a world where people can kill you, and loot everything you have after they kill you. These forts also have to be defended every day, just like the mines in Shadowbane.
 
Crowfall has outposts that provide victory points, buffs, and respawn areas that are live and able to be taken 24/7.
 
Crowfall has thralls that spawn only at night (about every 8 minutes) that drop disciplines. These thralls provide pvp opportunities as everyone will need the disciplines. Crowfall also has wartribe areas to farm, but these areas also spawn boss mobs like Kings, and Chiefs every 4 hours that drop special items and resources (and alot of them). These are in pvp areas, so you might have to fight a group or two to be able to pull the king, and then might get jumped in the middle of the battle, or might have a ninja looter taking all the good stuff you have to hunt down and kill.
 
So in short Shadowbane had sieges, discipline droppers, mines, special resources, and special droppers to fight over.
 
Crowfall has sieges, forts, discipline droppers, kings (special resources and special drops) and also the collection of ore, wood, stone, minerals, gems, body parts to fight over.
 
Crowfall is Shadowbane with more things to fight over.
 
And that is why i think it is a great game for a guild like guilds like mine.
 
We are the content, without players Shadowbane had no content, and neither does Crowfall. The more of us there are, the more content there is.
 
Thank you,
Edited by Nikko
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It is not about credit, it is about facsimiles of the systems that functioned in Shadowbane without follow-through.

You can't build characters even remotely in the same way as Shadowbane. You can't build cities remotely the same way. You can't have NPC crafting in remotely the same way. You can't zerg bust in remotely the same way. Should I go on?

Discipline hunting watered down. Living in the world watered down. Leveling, ganking, farming watered down (god's reach and infected GAG). Tiny groups. 

There are custard mobile banks in this game, for crying out loud.

Another DEV partner apologizing.

It's an OKAY game with very lackluster interest that will possibly be DOA. I have beaten the drum about it to my 20-year old guild and still gotten limited response to a game ostensibly marketed to us. It did not do most of the things it promised. Instead we got convoluted crafting without blueprints and factories, pre-place keeps with blueprints, leveling in complete safety, boring divine favor mechanics, safe temples, no binding, and we STILL got performance problems.

What will it take for you all to put your foot down? Population on dregs was consistently under 100 and a huge portion were AFKs in temples.

At this stage in its development, I joined Albion and the population was exploding. Why? Marketing? Nope. Quality and fun.

Edited by McTan
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You are looking at the cosmetics, I am looking at the core of Crowfall.

You cant build characters the same way, you now have probably 10x the choices you did in shadowbane. Sure you cant fiddle with runes at character creation, but you have 3x the amount of runes available in game.

Sure you cant add and subtract stat points at creation, and you dont have 200+ stat points to add as you level, you have 60 or 65. And a green vessel will yield almost 200 stat points more than a white one, and these points can be adjusted somewhat by experimentation. And with the Necromancy additives you get even more diversity. In crowfall yo have more choices, they just come when you make vessels, armor, weapons, jewelry instead of at creation.

The only real differences in city building is that in SB it was 100% gold, and each rank took time, and in CF it is raw materials and virtually instant build/upgrade. Additionally in SB you had a limit of how many buildings you could have in your city, you could not have a city with 20 forges, all the trainers and lots of player housing etc. so you had to choose which buildings you wanted, knowing you could not have it all. In CF this is also true, you might have 3 slots for class c buildings, and 7 choices, so you have to choose. Just because it is not identical does not mean it is so far distant as to be called remote. I'll agree that in SB you had free placement of the buildings, and currently you dont have that in CF, but that is the only real objective difference. the rest is pretty much semantics.

Yeah you dont have NPC crrafting in CF. You cant go up to a forge, deposit a million gold, and instruct your smith to make 7 batches of 10 each longswords for your blademaster, then run off and the next day go through the 70 he made to junk 90% of them. In CF you have to actually gather the ore, wood etc and expose yourself to alot more pvp than you did in SB. Additionally, you  have to involve yourself in the crafting, do it step by step, so the result is what you want it to be. In CF you make 1 sword just for you, in SB you made 70 of them hoping one would have the stats you wanted.

You cant zerg bust??? Sure you can.. you just do it differently in crowfall. SB was all "stack on me" , stack vs stack, the winner was the stack with the one that could do the most damage relative to the other. There was no strategy, just stack, debuff, aoe and aoe heal. In CF you will not have stacks. In CF you can have Guinecians burrow around the other group and take out healers. You have line of sight, you dont have tab targeting, you have little damage dealers hiding behind big old tanks so they cant be hit.

All those things are cosmetics. They are not the core.

The core of both games is to for the developers to create enough things to fight over so the players make their own content.

In your world Rift is not like Aion, and is not like SWTOR because they are on different worlds, or one is fantasy while the other is Science fiction. The fact is all three of those games follow the WOW model, devs make almost all the content for you. You really dont create much of it yourself.

I have also beaten a drum for months to my 21 year old guild with limited response. I know that pain and anguish. But i feel that one of the primary reasons they hesitate is because all they ever read and hear is how CF doesn't do this, or this or that. And because of that we have low populations, because they all play for a few days and then have no content because everyone focuses on the cosmetics instead of the core.

In every game that has come out we have had performance issues, remember the constant rubberbanding in SB and other games, we have had that on release in other games, along with server crashes and memory leaks. CF is no different. But we still have 6.3 which is supposed to address alot of that, and personally i dont see a big performance issue. True i have a monster rig, but even in large fights i rarely drop below 25 fps and 25-30 is all you really need to not have any major issues.

You are not wrong, you are just, in my opinion, looking at the surface of the game, not it's soul.

 

Edited by Nikko
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1 hour ago, Nikko said:

 

You are not wrong, you are just, in my opinion, looking at the surface of the game, not it's soul.

 

I am not sure that a strong argument is making up some arbitrary thing called soul of a game and pinning me to not thinking about it.

You train abilities in Shadowbane, you train talents in Crowfall. Your claim of 10x the number of builds is flimsy. Hell, most classes have fixed weapons and damage types. 

You pick where you build cities in Shadowbane, you have pre-placed selections in Crowfall.

You pay to bane in Shadowbane, you do it for free in Crowfall.

You NPC craft in Shadowbane, you hand-make in Crowfall.

You had track in Shadowbane.

You had summon in Shadowbane.

You had friendly fire in Shadowbane.

Let me know when I get to its soul.

You had to slowly carve out a corner of the world in Shadowbane over months of play. You settle and complete the keep and dominate a zone within a day in Crowfall.

You had significant maintenance costs in Shadowbane. Everything, once built is free in Crowfall (except vendors which cost a pittance).

You had to spend guild resources to use Spires in Shadowbane. You had to spend guild resources to take boons in Shadowbane. Shrines and Sentinels are free in Crowfall.

You had to hunt for and compete for rare disciplines that spawned very infrequently and in widely known places in Shadowbane, you farm disciplines in Crowfall without competition.

You could gain stat runes in Shadowbane. You could use disadvantage and advantage at character creation. You did not level passively.

You had to level in danger. You had to farm gold in danger. You had to travel slowly or use a discipline. You had to run long distances. You had massive zones. You had many more keeps sustaining guilds of various sizes. You lived in the world, with no pull from EKs or God's Reach or Infected.

Your opinion of surface of the game versus its soul is nonsense and easily dismissed. You are just wrong.

Sorry to be blunt.

Edited by McTan
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11 minutes ago, Staff said:

man, this game aint shadowbane

 

No, it isn't. And I'm resigned to that fact while still arguing that certain aspects are critical to any commercial success and longevity. And to me those aspects are all about city-building, placement, maintenance, farming, binding, living.

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You keep missing the point i am trying to make by listing features, not the foundation.

The Foundation of WOW and other games is that the devs make all the content for you.

The Foundation of Shadowbane and Crowfall is that the devs make very little content, just enough to get you to fight the real content of the game.

Each Other

My premise is nothing else.

In wow the challenge is to kill the boss mob of a raid, in Shadowbane/Crowfall it is to kill the other player.

Shadowbane gave us cities to fight over, mines to fight over, disciplines to fight over etc and Crowfall does the exact same thing.

Would I like to place a city where i want it, yes... but that is not the foundation, it is a feature

Would i like to have a cost to taking a keep in Crowfall like you had a cost in Shadowbane, yes but again a feature

Would i like track - NO, I dont like track, never have in a pvp game. I dont like radar. But again a feature.

Summon, friendly fire etc..... all features, not foundation

Most of the rest of your points are valid now, but lose some of their validity when the population (content) arrives. You will not be able to hunt thralls (disciplines in peace), nor will you be able to harvest minerals, ore, gems, body parts etc. You will have 100 guilds fighting over 30 graveyards. You will have guilds and alliances controlling a map ( a corner of thier world), you will have landless guilds trying to take the keep you used resources on to build away from you.... that is maintenance Crowfall style.

But again all of those are features in the game, not the foundation.

Its like you own a truck and a car, and go to buy a new car. Your car has leather seats, and your truck has cloth. The dealer shows you a nice new car that happens to have cloth seats, and you tell him you want to buy a car not a truck. When he looks at you like you are crazy you say, cars have leather seats, trucks have cloth... you are basing the vehicle on a feature, not on its purpose.

And I never said Crowfall was Shadowbane, I only propose that it is actually closer to shadowbane than many think.

What do you really want, just Shadowbane with maybe a few more classes/races and improved graphics??

Is that what you really want?? Is that what you expected??? Still expect???

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Nikko said:

You keep missing the point i am trying to make by listing features, not the foundation.

The Foundation of WOW and other games is that the devs make all the content for you.

The Foundation of Shadowbane and Crowfall is that the devs make very little content, just enough to get you to fight the real content of the game.

Each Other

My premise is nothing else.

In wow the challenge is to kill the boss mob of a raid, in Shadowbane/Crowfall it is to kill the other player.

Shadowbane gave us cities to fight over, mines to fight over, disciplines to fight over etc and Crowfall does the exact same thing.

Would I like to place a city where i want it, yes... but that is not the foundation, it is a feature

Would i like to have a cost to taking a keep in Crowfall like you had a cost in Shadowbane, yes but again a feature

Would i like track - NO, I dont like track, never have in a pvp game. I dont like radar. But again a feature.

Summon, friendly fire etc..... all features, not foundation

Most of the rest of your points are valid now, but lose some of their validity when the population (content) arrives. You will not be able to hunt thralls (disciplines in peace), nor will you be able to harvest minerals, ore, gems, body parts etc. You will have 100 guilds fighting over 30 graveyards. You will have guilds and alliances controlling a map ( a corner of thier world), you will have landless guilds trying to take the keep you used resources on to build away from you.... that is maintenance Crowfall style.

But again all of those are features in the game, not the foundation.

Its like you own a truck and a car, and go to buy a new car. Your car has leather seats, and your truck has cloth. The dealer shows you a nice new car that happens to have cloth seats, and you tell him you want to buy a car not a truck. When he looks at you like you are crazy you say, cars have leather seats, trucks have cloth... you are basing the vehicle on a feature, not on its purpose.

And I never said Crowfall was Shadowbane, I only propose that it is actually closer to shadowbane than many think.

What do you really want, just Shadowbane with maybe a few more classes/races and improved graphics??

Is that what you really want?? Is that what you expected??? Still expect???

 

 

 

Yes, it is a PvP MMO and therefore is closer to a PvP MMO than a PvE MMO (is WoW even an MMO anymore? more of a lobby co-op).

If that is the core of the point you are trying to make, then this thread is closed.

All of my points stand, and comparisons to Shadowbane are more surface than soul, friend.

To use your car/truck analogy. I am looking at my old truck that worked well, and a new truck with no engine and asking them to put the engine in from my old truck so I can drive.

As far as expecting it, no, but I am also unwilling to let them off the hook with feel good notions that this game is like Shadowbane. If it were, the population would be enormous.

Edit: Lest I be strawmanned, Shadowbane was a broken piece of poorly made dergs, but many of its systems outside of performance were unbelievably coherent, even if the devs only lucked onto them. And, for reminiscing's sake, Attack Rating and Defense contests were one of the worst mechanics in a PvP game, it just doesn't translate well from tabletop.

Edited by McTan
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8 hours ago, Nikko said:
There are basically two different MMORPG models. The Wow Model and the Sandbox.
 
We are the content, without players Shadowbane had no content, and neither does Crowfall. The more of us there are, the more content there is.

There are quite a few different MMO models.

IMO, Crowfall is like a MMO arena/battleground but on a larger and longer running scale. Within it players might be able to choose A or B  along the way but if XYZ are required to win then everyone has to do XYZ to get there.

Win conditions, divine favor, siege timers, limited character building, linear/vertical power progression, and other such things lean more towards "WoW" like models. Players are told what and how to play or have to work within predetermined limits.

Looking at games like Shadowbane, Darkfall, EVE, DAoC, Albion, Black Desert, I'd say they have more "sand" in their box in comparison to this one.

Simply lacking content doesn't make a game a sandbox nor good. Other games have interesting crafting, open world PVP, full loot PVP, siege, RvR, factions, GvG, along with a ton of PVE content, arenas, battlegrounds, achievements, ranking, etc. It isn't either or. Other games do it all or at least do certain things really well and others okay enough. As is, Crowfall isn't excelling at anything currently in comparison.

6 hours ago, Nikko said:

You cant build characters the same way, you now have probably 10x the choices you did in shadowbane. Sure you cant fiddle with runes at character creation, but you have 3x the amount of runes available in game.

Sure you cant add and subtract stat points at creation, and you dont have 200+ stat points to add as you level, you have 60 or 65. And a green vessel will yield almost 200 stat points more than a white one, and these points can be adjusted somewhat by experimentation. And with the Necromancy additives you get even more diversity. In crowfall yo have more choices, they just come when you make vessels, armor, weapons, jewelry instead of at creation.

I briefly played SB early on, saw it was a hot mess and went back to DAoC. Not sure how you can compare Crowfall to SB or other games that have decent character development. You are impressed they split a bunch of disciplines in half to double the total? Quality vs Quantity. Compared to other games, Crowfall has neither.

Despite the long list of stats, ACE gives us little power over them because of stat caps and what is available from crafting/drops. They removed a good amount of choice in the talent tree offering fewer options. Yay stat bundles, hope you don't get a class with +400 HP to unlock something you want.

Race-Base-Class combos, Weapon mastery, traits, stat runes, discipline runes (actually change how a character plays), along with gear, ability/skill/training points, greater number of powers available total and at a time, etc. Being able to fine tune and build unique characters is what makes other game's systems stick in the minds of players for years.

Crowfall leaves little to the imagination at every level. Very obvious what stats are beneficial. Depending on promo, pretty obvious what to pick up from the small choices in the talent tree. Same goes for passive training. Disciplines add an extra power/passive or two but don't let someone fine tune at all. More of what is broken at the moment and easy to exploit, pick that until it gets nerfed. Gear is super generic. Long list of stats we have little access to and have hard caps on. Vessel creation is straight forward unless someone is sticking crushing damage on their fessor and +range on their myrm?

Crowfall is a power creep vertical system while IMO games like EVE, Shadowbane, DAOC were more horizontal despite also having vertical power as well. Other games you can build an anti-XYZ through multiple choices, in Crowfall it is slot a discipline that gives 1 anti-XYZ power, the end.

Quote

In every game that has come out we have had performance issues, remember the constant rubberbanding in SB and other games, we have had that on release in other games, along with server crashes and memory leaks. CF is no different. But we still have 6.3 which is supposed to address alot of that, and personally i dont see a big performance issue. True i have a monster rig, but even in large fights i rarely drop below 25 fps and 25-30 is all you really need to not have any major issues

If they are going to set out to create a game clearly marketed at those that like "large" scale PVP, I expect it to perform as well if not better then what has come before. Camelot Unchained focused on their engine and it works for the most part in performance (from what I've seen) but sadly they too are off in pipedream land when it comes to the game itself. Having a "monster rig" and sitting at <30 FPS is a joke. 6.3 or 1000.5 might improve things, but I have no idea. 

4 hours ago, Nikko said:

You keep missing the point i am trying to make by listing features, not the foundation.

The Foundation of WOW and other games is that the devs make all the content for you.

The Foundation of Shadowbane and Crowfall is that the devs make very little content, just enough to get you to fight the real content of the game.

Most of the rest of your points are valid now, but lose some of their validity when the population (content) arrives.

I don't understand the needless comparison to WoW or such games. Who is making the comparison? I don't need to have any experience with WoW or Shadowbane to see that Crowfall as is won't be a hit even on whatever "niche" scale was planned.

Thousands and thousands have access from paying or signing up for free yet we see the population.

If a game is fun, people play it. It doesn't matter if launch is years away, wipes come every other week, bugs, balance, etc.

If someone has played Shadowbane and doesn't believe Crowfall is similar or lives up to the comparison, oh well. It's subjective if you ignore all the easily comparable features I guess.

Minecraft is what I consider a sandbox and massively more popular then what Crowfall will be. Why? It's "soul" and the tools players have available allow them freedoms a MMO like this will never.

Crowfall is stuck in a weird spot where it isn't really an open world do what you want MMO yet is far far away from a content rich game. It imposes a lot of restrictions and requirements to perform well.

Fact is, few are showing up and if they do, few are sticking around. I don't care if Shadowbane was the best game ever or a pile of garbage. Crowfall is it's own thing and so far that thing isn't getting much love from gamers that actually want to play what it is/was supposed to be.

Not sure if it is just a chicken n egg situation where the game needs to be good for people to play but to be good it needs players, but we've actually had the population spike somewhat and then vanish. So numbers weren't the magic bullet. Maybe at launch 100k will show up and it will be crazy fun, no clue but they seem to be doing a lot of development based off a tiny community and what it says so 🙃

People are specifically asking for things to do outside of timed (themepark) content and the idea was add more chests. Players wanted more build variety so they took away talent choices, watered down disciplines and locked them into domains. More options are viable, but there is still the same overly restrictive design. The point is missed. Passive training is what it is and I've just accepted it is a bad non entertaining yet powerful system without hope.

Edited by APE

 


 

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23 hours ago, Nikko said:

You cant zerg bust??? Sure you can.. you just do it differently in crowfall. SB was all "stack on me" , stack vs stack, the winner was the stack with the one that could do the most damage relative to the other. There was no strategy, just stack, debuff, aoe and aoe heal. In CF you will not have stacks. In CF you can have Guinecians burrow around the other group and take out healers. You have line of sight, you dont have tab targeting, you have little damage dealers hiding behind big old tanks so they cant be hit.

Really?? Just about every fort or keep battle has been a stack v stack fight, complete with debuff, aoe and aoe heals. Guinecians burrowing to pick off healers in a stack is a pipe dream. 

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

Alright, now I know that legal marijuana stores is having an effect on the population at large.😁

Have to admit sometimes my ramblings are definitely a result of partaking. 😄

 


 

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