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Crafting Progression Item Drop Rates 6.200


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For those of you actively playing 6.200 I am looking for feedback on the ease of which you think the various "souls" are obtained. This will be useful for tuning the 6.300 proc values of the crafting disciplines. I have heard feedback that feels like some of the professions proc too often and others not enough.



Something like:
Armorsmithing -  Felt reasonable, saw one every 10 pieces of armor.
Weaponsmithing - Felt too slow, saw one in 30 weapons.
Alchemy -
Runecrafting - Felt too fast, saw one every 5 tools, and tools are easy to make.
Necromancy -
Stonemasonry -
Jewelcrafting -
Leatherworking -
Woodworking -
 

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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Take a day off and have some fun Blair.  There is this new game getting worked on called Crowfall! Make up a nice untrained toon.  Log in. Get that toon ready. Go play for a bit. On a non dev

Sorry Blair, but the -whole- system felt too grindy and unneeded. Comments about the whole idea of having was -wasting- ressources to get these items was just really annoying and a general sense of :

Totally agreed. I would remove the resource cost penalty associated with not having discs/belts entirely. Making people pay double or triple to make inferior gear is awful.

22 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

For those of you actively playing 6.200 I am looking for feedback on the ease of which you think the various "souls" are obtained. This will be useful for tuning the 6.300 proc values of the crafting disciplines. I have heard feedback that feels like some of the professions proc too often and others not enough.



Something like:
Armorsmithing -  Felt reasonable, saw one every 10 pieces of armor.
Weaponsmithing - Felt too slow, saw one in 30 weapons.
Alchemy -
Runecrafting - Felt too fast, saw one every 5 tools, and tools are easy to make.
Necromancy -
Stonemasonry -
Jewelcrafting -
Leatherworking -
Woodworking -
 

Sorry Blair, but the -whole- system felt too grindy and unneeded. Comments about the whole idea of having was -wasting- ressources to get these items was just really annoying and a general sense of : I wish they would have left things alone and invested their time on other things such as performance was much more important.

The above comment you make isn’t what I can relate to when listening to the crafters and harvesters of the guilds I frequently visit.

Edit: 
Wasting 10 armor sets for 1 drop.  Well that is 2000 Ressources down the drain.  Not to talk about the Dust grind you have forced us back into... Things crafting wise are horrible, because of these changes you have imposed.  
Please stop making more grinding systems it’s not what ppl want.  They want things which will making crafting more fluent, and dynamic.  Where you dont have to click a million times placing mats INTo the crafting window

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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24 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

For those of you actively playing 6.200 I am looking for feedback on the ease of which you think the various "souls" are obtained. This will be useful for tuning the 6.300 proc values of the crafting disciplines. I have heard feedback that feels like some of the professions proc too often and others not enough.



Something like:
Armorsmithing -  Felt reasonable, saw one every 10 pieces of armor.
Weaponsmithing - Felt too slow, saw one in 30 weapons.
Alchemy -
Runecrafting - Felt too fast, saw one every 5 tools, and tools are easy to make.
Necromancy -
Stonemasonry -
Jewelcrafting -
Leatherworking -
Woodworking -
 

I will point out that Stonemasonry disciplines basically just require a large volume of resource expenditure - i.e. thousands before each proc chance.  The proc chances are at odds with the number of resources required.  Also, they come with no combat benefits (only really potentially useful in EKs at the moment).  

I am not so sure Runecrafting was too fast (it's foundational to a lot of other things).  My experience has been one proc every 10 or so tools (certainly not 5).  

I am decently happy with the Jewelcrafting proc chances in the current iteration (about every 5-7).

The others I do not have enough personally experience to give you a good opinion.

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Woodworking was brutal because they dont have a cheaper recipe to craft and all requires the resource of a 2hded weapon (No `hded weapon in woodworking) (With exception of quiver which requires heartwood which can be a pain to acquire) 
Had to make 16 bows to get one at 190 odd resource per bow so almost 3000 resources per soul roughly

After that gave up crafting for them and hunted crafting thralls to get the other 2

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I play solo on one account with 6 of my toons as crafters. I thought the change would make it impossible for me to progress, but then I got a proc on my leatherworker and started grinding, burnt though a lot of mats and got the three I needed to progress and make crafting/harvesting armor. Making one full set of armor for my skinner, runecrafter and leatherworker and I have procced 4 more knowledges.

 

I haven't gotten far enough to know in absolute terms if the proc rates are high or low but I can say for some in relative terms.

Leatherworker/Runecrafter about the same.

Alchemist/Weaponsmith much lower. I got one Alchemist Knowledge but then I grinded a whole bunch of potions/poisons (mostly poisons) and I have yet to get another. The resource cost of grinding weapons is so high I had to back off trying to grind that.

Armor et al - I haven't tried to grind these so I don't know.

I am not sure why it isn't straightforward to normalize proc chance based on material cost of recipes. Also you should look into how POE uses an 'entropy' system with one of their RNG mechanics (evasion) so that if you have say a 70% chance to hit then you will hit 70 out of 100 every time no matter what.

"Evasion does not calculate the chance of each hit independently. Instead, it uses a system of "entropy" to ensure that enemies won't get long strings of hits or misses by chance."

This is how you should handle crafting procs:

a) proc chance is based on total resource cost of the activity

b) proc chance includes entropy system so that if you set proc rate at 3% you will get 3 procs from 100 tries no matter what.

Edited by Charas
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Armorsmithing - Wasn't too bad, maybe a little low.
Weaponsmithing - Far too low, one soul out of at least 2 dozen weapons.
Alchemy -  Kinda low, but potions are cheap.
Runecrafting - The rate seems fine; tools are made regularly, in high numbers, as a matter of course.  This is the only crafting profession where I never created items for the sole purpose of proccing souls.

For me, the issue has less to do with drop rates, and everything to do with the brutal crafting costs associated with not having a crafting belt.  The period between starting a crafter and managing to score the (current) three soul procs needed for a belt is terrible.  I have no feedback on the other crafting professions because I simply couldn't afford it.  I'd alleviate it by moving the resource reduction portion of the belt from blue quality to green, *especially* since you're increasing the cost of that threshold from 3 souls to 10.  That's a terrific amount of grind for anyone not fortunate enough to have a whole guild funneling resources to them.  Or, you could just remove the crafting cost differences because they stink.

On the topic of crafting belts and guilds, the issues listed above are going to stand out if we have to grind these for every single no-import campaign.

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Crafting Progression Item Drop Rates 6.200:

Jewelcrafting - Feels reasonable. About 1 soul for every 5-7 rings or necklaces made. But every ring or necklace has more than 6 steps to craft it (if we include crafting JC tools like grinding wheels, polish pastes, diamond and chaos cutting rings). I would even increase the drop rate for Jewelcrafting just a little bit.

Also, it makes sense to add a chance of crafting soul drop to Focus Gems (but a much lower chance).

Furthermore, it feels like white Jewelry crafting outcomes should be significantly increased. Right now, crafting white quality jewelries does not make sense at all. But if you buff it a bit, it would be still useful to craft white jewelries right at the beginning. Currently, jewelries are crafted for Green+ bodies only starting from Green quality. Crafted weapons, for example, are good even at white quality. But white jewelry is simply crap.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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What had happened for me:

woodworking was terrible.

Weaponsmith for me was terrible.

Armorsmith was slightly better than terrible.

Runecrafter was fine.

The issue for me was that when you get to 150 items crafted (weaponsmith) and not a drop any in that time, while it would be statistically able to happen it seems like it happens more than it should. Once I complained verbally and mentioned a certain developer's name in vain, I did start to get some progression so maybe that was linked in game somehow. 

 

As for what The future of this system will be:

  • I'm very concerned that progression is attached to items that are tradable. We need to get that progression off of the toolbelts and onto the account. Any system where the benefits could be easily traded over to spike their progression isn't very good.  We need to prevent twinking, but if you earned progression on one vessel, it should transfer to the next, so make it account based. 
  • I'm very concerned that there are some crafting, such as necromancy, where you don't get anything for the smaller combines. For the smaller pieces, you should get credit. Maybe not as high of a chance to get a benefit but it should move you up. 
Edited by Spawl
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Take a day off and have some fun Blair. 
There is this new game getting worked on called Crowfall!
Make up a nice untrained toon. 
Log in. Get that toon ready.

Go play for a bit. On a non dev account. Go mine a few things. Go skin a little. Gather up the 45 Metal for a sword. (no wait, 90) Then do it again. And again. And again.

Do it some 60+ times Click all the buttons needed. Go get the three knowledges needed to make a blue soul. 

Why don't you try it for a bit. Let us know how it goes. Get a first hand idea of what you are asking people to pay for then do.
For entertainment.

 

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My main crafter is a Rune crafter, and I did not have your success rate, Blair. I probably made 30 tools before I got 3, The next problem was that I used one to make a green rune crafting disc(which is not even equippable on a white vessel), instead of combining all three. I have to say, my biggest complaint is the lack of explanation on a lot of the changes that go into, especially the major patches. Is the process explained anywhere in patch notes, that you now need a minimum of a blue disc on even a white vessel to equip the toolbelts? I consider myself and avid follower. I watch every livestream and i read the patch notes. If I didn't have a guild that fully explained the procedure, and then a guildmate who donated a another rune crafting disc for the one I burned, I don't know when I would've gotten that completed. 

I think on Alchemist, Advanced Poisons should be proccable for Knowledge runes. (or for whatever is replacing them). I have a weaponsmith and an armorsmith but I didn't make enough of those to successfully get a Knowledge, so I can't comment on those drop rates. 

Edited by Doomshadow
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i want to start by saying getting gated by disciplines (not farm) is probably my least favorite part of Crowfall so far (whether combat or crafting).  also having to have a green discipline to equip a belt to make ambrosia at a 1:1 rate felt incredibly terrible and caused us two days of delay because of some bad RNG and put us into a bind with our first necro push because it took us so long to get up to making philos.  same thing but less dire for paste and flask given you go through a massive amount doing anything relevant to crafting.  

Armorsmithing -  i feel like the amount of investment / disc was not great; however, it's definitely better than weaponsmithing.
Weaponsmithing - our current gate, weaponsmithing sucks a lot to grind out and even selling tons of weapons daily we are not getting enough for an epic knowledge.
Alchemy - it's fine once you get skilled up enough to make solutions, this is one of the ones that feels rewarding but not terrible.
Runecrafting - my runecrafter has 60 disciplines stacked, they definitely need to drop from tools but the rate is wild right now.
Necromancy - feels OK now that we've got an epic necro; however, i can't imagine something more annoying crafting wise to get gated behind.  
Stonemasonry - it was not fun to farm 2394082389 white stone to build random poorly made THINGS so our JC could be self sufficient
Jewelcrafting - ^
Leatherworking - ^ but + blacksmithing
Woodworking - idk

if i had to do this grind without the current passive training, i probably would not have participated in 6.2.  thinking of hitting rock MLs with intermediate hammers and 3% mineral chance without a potion to get 2 cinnabar to make half of an ambrosia is bringing me dark thoughts.

Edited by doomstove
scrambled word made me look like an idiot
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I have maxed out crafters of every type on test, and did all my testing there with unlimited mats.

Unless you're producing enough volume to outfit a large guild, the drop rates on weaponsmith, armorsmith, leatherworker, woodworker, and jewelcrafter all felt low.  Alchemy and runecrafting felt ok, as did necromancy.

That said, 200+ clicks to produce the armor coatings for one set of armor is ridiculous.  The steps you made to make crafting less terrible (the ability to create stacks of some components) were a good start, but only a start. 

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Runemaking feels fine, if a little fast.
The high churn on tools makes it feel pretty good, since I'm making bulk amounts in one sitting for our gathering runs.
It's not like other crafts where the proc chance compared to the effort required to make an item that procs it is skewed in a pretty bad way.
Runemaking is the last one you need to be looking at, tbh.
Tools are insanely cheap, you need and make a lot of them, and you burn through a lot. You're going to proc quite a few in one sitting, easily.

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Weaponsmith: Having crafted ALOT of weapons, I'm on my third BS vessel and have just managed to get the epic rune slotted but still 3 short of a rare belt.

Armoursmith: Not quite as bad as weaponsmith but can at least spam reasonable cost boots/gloves

Woodworker: Gave up once finally got enough for a blue disc +green belt, mainly done by hunting thralls.

Overall, for all 3 I found it easier to hunt thralls and/or trade for the knowledge's over making junk trying to proc them.

My suggestion would be for the quality of the final craft to impact the knowledge quality (ie: rare craft = rare knowledge), along with increasing the drop rate.

 

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The initial grind for Leatherworker took me 56 armour pieces, mostly boots, for 3 souls.  That was on the first couple days of the 6.2 update.  Until number 3 dropped i was annoyed and felt it was too excessive.  However once that third one dropped, the numbers didn't look so bad.  Once crafting for the guild and combined with the crafter thralls out in campaign world, we are sitting at 21 surplus, this is after a vessel upgrade.  Total sets crafted is around 25.

Now for runecrafter, supplying DIS, we are at over 90 RC souls. Definitely overtuned drop rate.

WIth the other professions in guild, they experienced the same, once they get the first 3 souls and equip a belt, and they are crafting useful things, it goes very smoothly and more than keeps up with demand.  They even can get other guild crafter alts toolbelt ready without the grind.

The outlier is Necro, for a guild like DIS who needs to churn out so many bodies (think we are at over 70 now), it will be fine, but the initial push for the toolbelt was rough, can't imagine how it would be for the smaller guilds to waste so many mats.  However i do not recommend increasing the drop rate for necro.

I would however recommend that they change the progression slightly on the toolbelts to lessen that initial grind that is miserable and kills guilds resources.  The change is simple, remove stat gain from green discipline, and make it unlock the toolbelt only.  now you only need 1 soul to proc to craft properly.

Edited by neven
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By the way my viewpoint is not like others right now, I have done these on live servers and a majority of it coming from a 2 person harvest The only exception is the Woodworker which I just have not had enough time to create. So the Woodworker data is still from Test servers. I'm actually going to 2nd Neven on this one as well, if the stat gain would come from a green disc to equip the resource reduction belt instead of the blue I would think it would make this less of an initial resource waste/dump.

Armorsmithing -  To me it feels very balanced, still requires a lot of resources but not bad proc rate. I'd say 1 in 8-12
Weaponsmithing -  for some reason feels poor for me, I've crafted 55 for 3 souls. I have a higher proc rate with 2handers...but the cost is heavy
Alchemy - doesn't seem too bad 1 from around 10 solutions
Runecrafting - These need to be turned down a bit since i get about 1 every 5-10 tools. since the cost of tools are cheap this one is too easy
Necromancy - With the new proc rate I've crafted 33 bodies for 16 necro procs, but now I've crafted another 37 vessels and have received only 11. So hit and miss but definitely feels better. I'm thinking maybe if you add in a small 5% for body parts it would make up for the resource cost.
Stonemasonry - This one felt pretty solid from my own proc rate. needed the souls for the belt on my Jewelcrafter and I only crafted 12 noble chests for all 3
Jewelcrafting - I think this one needs a little bit of work but not too much. possibly another 5%-10% but if it didn't change any I wouldn't be upset.
Leatherworking - Like Armorsmith it feels good, but initially needs work.
Woodworking - I'm not quite sure why everyone else are not getting procs but I've made 9 bows for 3 souls. It seems solid to me.

 

All in all this was a feedback post for crafters on the current system @Soulreaver. Not feedback regarding the system itself not sure if you read it correctly but it is stated 

Quote
6 hours ago, thomasblair said:

For those of you actively playing 6.200

 

Anyway, I harvest these resources myself from single player node harvesting, Motherloding with the Wife, and running pigs. All in all, I do not terribly mind this change. My only issues were the proc rate of Necromancer due to it being the highest resource dump in the game. I honestly believe that adding even a small 5% proc rate to subcomponents would "feel" even better then just some on final assembly. Especially when it comes down to Necromancy, Weaponsmithing, and all Crafts. I believe adding this small proc rate to all crafts would make crafting in general a bit more rewarding. It does certainly feel rewarding when you get a proc rate, but at the same time very poorly made dergsty when you burn loads of material for a single proc or not enough. Adding in a quality proc rate scale would be nice, but I'm not sure if its possible. What @srathorsaid was a bit much, but I did honestly feel that the first time I tried out this system. It is a whole different viewpoint when you are the one hitting nodes, or running pigs to actively collect these resources then any test server buy or magical poof here is all what I need to make this...

Lastly, I know I'm an idiot 😃 and cheesy at time but I would love a different jingle for added effect when you actually proc a disc. I'm thinking more like something similar to a Final Fantasy battle finish sound. I'm simple lol but it would definitely be the icing on the cake.

Edited by CaptainSlashin
typo
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Armoursmith- I got one every 25 items, way to slow as iron is always needed (so much iron grind just to collect enough to make the items) and that was 75 items that I needed to junk til i finally got to use the belt to make reasonable items.

Edited by Fefner
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Armoursmithing - not the funnest of grinds
Weaponsmithing - too long per peice - would love to see it also proc on hilt combination
Woodworking - is horrid, the quiver grind is real, other weapons are too complex to spam craft often
Alchemy - great with the harvest potion grind
Necromancy - no, just no, this is a silly grind and in a lot of cases make useless vessels that no one wants
Stonemasonry - This grind is un-needed and way over the top
Jewelcrafting - seems to proc ok
Leatherworking - suffers like Armoursmithing does

Suggestions:
Please remove increased resource costs or make the cost reduction baseline on the common discipline, Necromancy is absurd without the reduction as is alchemy, it forces a major spam of crafts that you dont really want to get to the resource reduction, for Necromancy this is also true of the additive slot, no one wants to level a non additive green vessel.

 

Woodworking and Weaponsmith need to have additional procs to help with the long craft times, having it on the hilt/bow raiser/staff head/bound pages would still gate behind having the more complex parts but double your chance to get a disc.

Alchemy: please remove the increased resource cost for flasks, its harsh, mean and forces your alchemist with the discs to be chained to the alchemy table making common level stuff all day/

Stonemasonry: Please make the chaos ember slot for blades a standard additive on the common disc, please dont gate jewelcrafting behind making 100s of chests, these are common components with no experimentation or affect on the final product, its just a chore.

Necromancy: I hope you have something planned for Necromancy other than vessel creation otherwise this craft is technically dead within 3 months, adding in a respecc for VIP kills the need to re-roll, if that respecc could also be an item that Necromancy can craft for non-sub players then this may keep it alive. You have made the necromancy grind even larger that before, you need to grind out 10 discs (1 green disc and 9 for the upgraded belt), this is an insane amount of minerals to get for technically worthless vessels.

I dont mind to spam for a purpose, but a lot of the final products will just get vendored or sacced because their quality will be useless.

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