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Crafting Progression Item Drop Rates 6.200


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So, to max out what you used to get from the passive training you'll need 27 green disciplines per character (vessel upgrade -> new grind) for the discipline and 117 disciplines and 67500 gold for the belt. If we say 1 discipline every 10 weapons is ok then we'll need to craft over 1500 weapons and that needs over 70k resources. Sorry, but it feels kind of grindy to me.

For the harvesting part it may have sense, you're harvesting and getting resources (by the way, is the motherlode damage stat anywhere?) but for the crafting part is just a burn of resources making inferior items most of them only good for sacrificing.

One thing I noticed when I did some testing is when you craft potions in bulk it seems as the hole crafting just counts as one potion for the chances to get a soul.

Edited by Extintor
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Take a day off and have some fun Blair.  There is this new game getting worked on called Crowfall! Make up a nice untrained toon.  Log in. Get that toon ready. Go play for a bit. On a non dev

Sorry Blair, but the -whole- system felt too grindy and unneeded. Comments about the whole idea of having was -wasting- ressources to get these items was just really annoying and a general sense of :

Totally agreed. I would remove the resource cost penalty associated with not having discs/belts entirely. Making people pay double or triple to make inferior gear is awful.

I did armor, weapons, leather, and runes. Runes just takes way fewer materials so felt way easier. 

For weaponsmith, the first two weapons I crafted I got a soul, but then it took maybe another 10 items to get the third.

Armorsmith took much longer - I estimate I went through 1,000 iron to get the three souls.

Leather took the longest for me - crafted 30 plus boots.

Perhaps, add a sacrifice mechanic that gives a progress bar towards your next soul. You have a chance to loot an item but if you sacrifice "x" number of items you crafted, you are guaranteed one. Or just give a progress meter for each item crafted so there is some kind of hard limit on the number of items you have to craft to get one. 

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A thought I've had as I am reading through comments on the rune crafting, it might make sense to double (or even triple) the durability on a fully crafted rune tool and then double (or even triple) the resource cost while leaving the proc chance unchanged.

This will reduce the number of clicks to craft (which gets really redundant for rune crafters, trust me), make each rune tool more impactful (i.e. last more than 10 minutes), and effectively increase the resource cost for Rune crafting proc chances.

I'll also add our leatherworker had a terrible time crafting boots and helms to get a knowledge of the leather worker.  He crafted somewhere in the ball park of 20 pieces without a single drop.  We ended up killing thralls for 2 and buying the third.

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Reading the comments from others i feel im realy unluck.

Im a solo player (crafter none pvp )and harvest all the stuff myself. 

Runecraft took me about 100 tools. to get 3Knowledges (took forever to get the first1)

Also im at 50+ Advansed boots now (make 10X5 add boots) and only 1 Knowledge.

Only loggin only for the pasive exp not to max out. lost intrest of the game as it is now

 

Edited by Silentsong
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Alchemy - Takes way too long. I'm hundreds of potions and philo solutions in and it's only managed to get me a blue disc, blue belt, and a second blue disc, which I needed to build to replace the FIRST blue disc after using the WHIT vessel with the BLUE disc to create the philo stone for the BLUE vessel. That's roughly where crafting progression is decent enough to make blues with the current passive training.

Necromancer - Nothing about this feels good. Literally nothing about this feels good. The immense effort required to put together one vessel even at the normal resource rates is egregious to get a less than half *chance* to proc a *minor portion* of progression, again only needing to literally throw away a large portion of that progression when a vessel is replaced.

 

Consider the fact that your discipline drop rates describe an item that will be entirely deleted and farmed from scratch.

Consider the fact that disciplines are not a linear system, but a cyclical system that must be done over, and over, and over, for every single character.

Consider that vessels and passive training that exists independant of vessels was a system that actually works and placing so much progression on expensive discipline upgrades is a system that introduces constant MAJOR progression resets.

How about just using a standard XP bar in stead of this needlessly complicated and grindy mess? At least then I'd only have to stop playing the game to make a bunch of garbage once in stead of every single time I want to set up a new vessel.

How about removing necromancy and vessels and just making the game work like every other MMO so we don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops? The only reason vessels made any sense at all was the carry over of the passive trains. Without passive trains, vessels are just another grind on top of another grind on top of another grind.

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21 hours ago, srathor said:

Take a day off and have some fun Blair. 
There is this new game getting worked on called Crowfall!
Make up a nice untrained toon. 
Log in. Get that toon ready.

Go play for a bit. On a non dev account. Go mine a few things. Go skin a little. Gather up the 45 Metal for a sword. (no wait, 90) Then do it again. And again. And again.

Do it some 60+ times Click all the buttons needed. Go get the three knowledges needed to make a blue soul. 

Why don't you try it for a bit. Let us know how it goes. Get a first hand idea of what you are asking people to pay for then do.
For entertainment.

I thought the exact same thing when I read his post. 

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Just port the crafting system to the crafting stations and buildings. Simplify the recipes, but maintain most of the same combinations so the overall combinations don't change very much and bake the crafting stats into the quality/rank of the building or crafting station. This way, those who have access to crafting stations (in a campaign OR Eternal Kingdom) can feed their resources into the station, set it to "cook" and return to what they were doing. An hour or two later they would return to find a finished item. 

There's only a small percentage of the population that identifies with the "crafting" playstyle and I can't really remember the last time they were happy with the system. Reduce the pain, resource/item bloat and time required to craft items and link it directly to the city/stronghold building game. You could add rank 1 crafting stations to forts and outposts so everyone has SOME access to crafting, but the real deal should come from those strongholds people worked hard to build up. 

I think this change would probably save EK's if there difference between crafting in a max rank EK stronghold and a max rank campaign stronghold came down to an arbitrary campaign bonus. Resources would still need to be acquired in the campaign, but the tedious and time consuming crafting system would just be automated. You could even add another layer of gathering to the system by adding "broken weapons" to boss drops that could be used to create more powerful versions of crafted weapons. 

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32 minutes ago, soulein said:

Just port the crafting system to the crafting stations and buildings. Simplify the recipes, but maintain most of the same combinations so the overall combinations don't change very much and bake the crafting stats into the quality/rank of the building or crafting station. This way, those who have access to crafting stations (in a campaign OR Eternal Kingdom) can feed their resources into the station, set it to "cook" and return to what they were doing. An hour or two later they would return to find a finished item. 

There's only a small percentage of the population that identifies with the "crafting" playstyle and I can't really remember the last time they were happy with the system. Reduce the pain, resource/item bloat and time required to craft items and link it directly to the city/stronghold building game. You could add rank 1 crafting stations to forts and outposts so everyone has SOME access to crafting, but the real deal should come from those strongholds people worked hard to build up. 

I think this change would probably save EK's if there difference between crafting in a max rank EK stronghold and a max rank campaign stronghold came down to an arbitrary campaign bonus. Resources would still need to be acquired in the campaign, but the tedious and time consuming crafting system would just be automated. You could even add another layer of gathering to the system by adding "broken weapons" to boss drops that could be used to create more powerful versions of crafted weapons. 

I don't think he knows how to move these actions to the stations. They can't get factories in before launch which is basically what you are talking about; blueprints that click all the boxes for you and start a series of crafts. That doesn't seem that difficult of a tech change but last we heard it wasn't in the stars and who knows when it will be ready. 

As for EKs, people want them disconnected more and more from campaign. I'm not even sure what the value is for them given how much people want to limit the activities. I really wish they would provide some clarity into what they are going to do with those because we are a long ways off from them being valuable. 

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I have only done weaponsmith and the drop rate seemed to be anywhere between 1 every 15 crafts to 1 every 20 crafts. Farmed all the mats myself and i am still one soul away from upgrading to a blue belt. I personally like the idea of doing away with passive training and adding active progression but this felt too slow. I understand a lot of the complaints and concerns from many people. They feel as if something has been taken away from them while in my opinion its adding more to work towards. However i would prefer to do away with the rng and instead just implement xp bars for crafting professions in general. I am also a little concerned about the economy next patch. How can there be an economy for gear if everyone is able to craft whatever they want? Don't get me wrong, as someone who likes to do everything i prefer the changes. I just don't know how you can solve the economy in this situation.

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for 6.200 runes are not as mandatory as for 6.300 because in 6.2 runes give some advantages but passive training doesnt force us to get a legendary.

First of all : please use a PRD : example https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Pseudo_Random_Distribution

Why ?
because it's still random but it's more fair.

Then we will get tons and tones of trash resources ( appart from necromancer and jewelcrafter which need resources from the mother nodes ) from gatherers that will need to get their owns runes. So resources wont matter as much as now.

The crafting in bulk will be done with macros, as we dont have factories and it will just be tedious.

I personnaly wont stop farming / crafting white until i get legendary runes and belt because i dont see the point of being useless.

Now crafting runetools i had 40 by crafting only necessary tools for my guild before the 3 weeks campaign so i thinks it's ok, it will allow me to have legendart stuff in a matters of days.
crafting armor with only shoes ( to dont use too much mat. ) i got 1 on 16 try
then crafting for the craftors i got 2 on 16 try
seems pretty ok as the shoes are cheep.

for jewelcrafting i got 2 on my first two try and i stop their.

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On 12/2/2020 at 11:00 AM, Extintor said:

So, to max out what you used to get from the passive training you'll need 27 green disciplines per character (vessel upgrade -> new grind) for the discipline and 117 disciplines and 67500 gold for the belt. If we say 1 discipline every 10 weapons is ok then we'll need to craft over 1500 weapons and that needs over 70k resources. Sorry, but it feels kind of grindy to me.

For the harvesting part it may have sense, you're harvesting and getting resources (by the way, is the motherlode damage stat anywhere?) but for the crafting part is just a burn of resources making inferior items most of them only good for sacrificing.

One thing I noticed when I did some testing is when you craft potions in bulk it seems as the hole crafting just counts as one potion for the chances to get a soul.

It seems we need to add the domination dust cost to the exploration disciplines and toolkist upgrades for now. This is going to be expensive. :(

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Here are my issues:

We need to know which combines even have a chance to yield a soul. If we are crafting dozens of recipe A and not getting any drops and recipe A has a 0% drop rate, then we can omit it from our calculations.

Necromancy drop rates are off of Vessels only. While increasing this chance is good, in each profession there should be at least one more basic combine that has a drop chance. Alchemy Philosopher Stone and/or Armor coatings, Runecrafters, runic tools, etc. It should be more than just he final combine that has a chance ie. only giving a drop chance on a completed weapon is a tedious example. You could add small drop rates to each component ie hilt to compensate.

It just seems that some crafting lines have items with at least a small drop rate on items they will naturally make alot of, while other crafting lines only get the chance (though it appears to be larger) on completed items (vessels, weapons, etc.)

This is what needs to be balanced.

Example: An alchemist is going to make 4 armor coatings for an armorer to make some armor. He gets drop chances on all 4 armor coatings, and all 16 solutions he makes. If the drop chance on each is 5% he gets one drop.

If the armorer then creates 4 pieces of armor, he should get one drop also. to do this he would have to have a 25% chance on each piece of armor, or it could be less and he would need a chance on the metal scales, rings etc.

In each case, we the testers, need to know what combines have a chance, and it would be nice to know what that chance is.

That way If ACE said that philosopher solution had a 5% drop rate, i could make 100 of them on test, and if i get  5 drops then i know it is working correctly. If i get 4, maybe i had bad luck, if i get 6, i have good luck, but if i get either 1 or 10 then something is broken.

 

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Alchemy / Rune probably fine. I do think Quarrying Potions can't proc it or off in some way, made about 50+ and couldnt proc it on that potion.

Jewelry Crafting feels terrible ONLY because of the 7 combines it takes to make one final thing that has a chance to proc, additionally even making white rings etc you fail a TON.

 

I would rather you decide what you want proc chance to be overall for a craft and split it between all the subcomps, maybe putting a larger portion on the final combine. May "feel" better that way.

 

Can't speak to others, didn't try them.

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On 12/1/2020 at 4:10 PM, thomasblair said:

For those of you actively playing 6.200 I am looking for feedback on the ease of which you think the various "souls" are obtained. This will be useful for tuning the 6.300 proc values of the crafting disciplines. I have heard feedback that feels like some of the professions proc too often and others not enough.



Something like:
Armorsmithing -  Felt reasonable, saw one every 10 pieces of armor.
Weaponsmithing - Felt too slow, saw one in 30 weapons.
Alchemy -
Runecrafting - Felt too fast, saw one every 5 tools, and tools are easy to make.
Necromancy -
Stonemasonry -
Jewelcrafting -
Leatherworking -
Woodworking -
 

6.3 on TEST.
I crafted hundreds, and it was not every 5 tools, it was more like 1/20. It was VERY STREAKY.  I would go a full inventory without any, then get 4 within 20 on the next page. It actually felt about right (in total) given that to even get to crafting the tool, I had to also craft the sigils to go with the tools with no drops on those.  Took me 4 hours, burned through 5 full inventory pages of runes, with UNLIMITED resources to get to a purple rune. Resource costs were about 7k in white materials, and 2.5K in dust in addition to the gold.  I suspect the amount of actual labor required to make a single purple rune falls somewhere around 

12K * 4 Gold at 4k/hr = 12 HRS
4 HRs crafting for rune drops. (1 + 3 + 9 + 27 )
??HRs of harvesting for mats. ( I suspect it's north of 12 hours, and south of 30 hours)

Total estimated GRIND, not playing the conquest game, 30 hours or work, per purple rune. (Every vessel requires 2 exploration, or 7 total)

Time to get one vessel to full purples, 210 hours of in game time.

Extrapolate that math to 3X the number of runes for belts, and god help us all. 

What I found odd was 

1) I couldn't craft intermediate tools without the "logger" or other exploration rune equipped
2) Intermediate tools did not seem to drop runes
3) Nobody is going to want the harvesting tools I have to make to get these runes, until THEY have gotten to purple in harvesting. 


 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I crafted hundreds, and it was not every 5 tools, it was more like 1/20. It actually felt about right given that to even get to crafting the tool, I had to also craft the sigils to go with the tools with no drops on those.  Took me 4 hours, burned through 5 pages of runes, with UNLIMITED resources to get to a purple rune. Resource costs were about 7k in white materials, and 2.5K in dust in addition to the gold.  I suspect the amount of actual labor required to make a single purple rune falls somewhere around 

12K * 4 Gold at 4k/hr = 12 HRS
4 HRs crafting
??HRs of harvesting for mats. ( I suspect it's north of 12 hours, and south of 30 hours)

Total estimated GRIND, not playing the conquest game, 30 hours or work, per purple rune. 

Extrapolate that math to 3X the number of runes for belts, and god help us all. 

What I found odd was 

1) I couldn't craft intermediate tools without the "logger" or other exploration rune equipped
2) Intermediate tools did not seem to drop runes
3) Nobody is going to want the harvesting tools I have to make to get these runes, until THEY have gotten to purple in harvesting. 


 

I think it is EXTREME to require purple harvesting rune to use advanced tools. Seems like a different type of time gate just keep intermediate tools relevant longer.

 

Additionally a runemaker should be able to make EVERY type of intermediate runetool with the major. If we're forced to use intermediates atleast let our runemaker have something to do.

Edited by Ussiah
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On 12/2/2020 at 10:51 AM, Ivellian said:

A thought I've had as I am reading through comments on the rune crafting, it might make sense to double (or even triple) the durability on a fully crafted rune tool and then double (or even triple) the resource cost while leaving the proc chance unchanged.

This will reduce the number of clicks to craft (which gets really redundant for rune crafters, trust me), make each rune tool more impactful (i.e. last more than 10 minutes), and effectively increase the resource cost for Rune crafting proc chances.

I'll also add our leatherworker had a terrible time crafting boots and helms to get a knowledge of the leather worker.  He crafted somewhere in the ball park of 20 pieces without a single drop.  We ended up killing thralls for 2 and buying the third.

Cost to craft runes already went up in terms of the blank stones.  Used to be 3, now it's 9.  

It feels like all sorts of costs have gone up, while the volume inputs, which aside from the fort resources, and been pretty much been too low before now in my opinion, has remained static. 

I don't mind the idea of there being a cost reduction component to training/upgrading, but for the love of all that is holy and good, RAISE THE HARVESTING VOLUMES.  We did not back a "harvesting" game, we backed a conquest/territory control "thone war" game. 

Also, please consider that these drop rates are now no longer "account" level upgrades, but single vessels, and will have to be repeated.  Many of the different types of exporation things, with the notable exception of crafting, are going to be wanted on MULTIPLE vessels. I may want to run my Assasin for harvesting in one group, and my Templar in another, but instead of having to grind up my passive training once for both, I now have to do it for each vessel. 

Really, what is the potential HARM to the players experience and this game, if this process was made faster with less grind? What about the amount of effort that is required for this progression, makes this a better and more fun game?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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It is unfun, it will remain unfun. And I am not going to continue to do things that are unfun. They need to be willing to do what they are asking other to do.

If the devs do not have time to play the game, and see what they are asking.
Then why the custard do they think we have the time. 

This is custard supposed to be entertainment. Make it custard fun FIRST!.

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3 minutes ago, srathor said:

It is unfun, it will remain unfun. And I am not going to continue to do things that are unfun. They need to be willing to do what they are asking other to do.
If the devs do not have time to play the game, and see what they are asking.
Then why the custard do they think we have the time. 
This is custard supposed to be entertainment. Make it custard fun FIRST!.

I think we all know by now that the dev's do not play their own game and have no idea what they are doing at this point.

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