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Remove Invuln's from Ultimates


blazzen
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The recent (re)addition of invuln’s to the various ultimate abilities (including champion ultimate warriors) was a step in the wrong direction. These “get out of jail free cards” increases the numbers sensitivity of combat. And by that I mean it makes bringing more people more important than tactics. Outnumbered groups need to be able to punish people who make mistakes and frequent ultimates and invulns make that less possible. I understand the invulns were added when barriers were removed due to the Unstable Mage discipline 1 shotting people.

 What I propose is removing most of it not all of the barriers and invulns from ultimate abilities and making slight tweaks where needed. Below is a list with suggestions.

  1. Half Giant

    1. The Half Giant Racial “Blood of the Giant” is fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock and gives a nice damage/healing buff.

  2. Knight

    1. The Knight ultimate is fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock and does good damage.

  3. Templar

    1. The templar ultimate is fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock, blinds, and heals.

  4. Champion

    1. Champion Neckbreaker Ultimate is fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock and either does great damage, roots/heals, or knocks down.

    2. Champion Invincible Warrior ultimate from the Reaver discipline is fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock and provides a good heal.

    3. The various champion “warrior” abilities (brutal warrior, ultimate warrior, mighty warrior) are fine without any barrier/invuln. It’s a fairly short animation lock with a good heal and buffs.

  5. Myrmidon

    1. The Myrmidon Ultimate is a tricky one because it’s a long animation which locks you in place. It’s useful right now for the Titan and Battlerager to avoid a berserk crash but it’s really only useful for the Conqueror as a means of mitigation when Berserk isn’t up. The crash mitigation definitely needs to stay for the Titan/Battlerager but it will need something else to become useful for the Conqueror. I still suggest removing the invuln/barrier from this ability but I would increase the damage on the ability to make it competitive with a champion neckbreaker.

  6. Confessor

    1. The confessor ultimate does not need an invuln or barrier, however, I think the blink/teleport distance on it should be increased to 20m so that it can be used to get out of harm’s way. Otherwise I’m afraid the invisible effect would be quickly and easily broken. But as it stands if you were able to damage the confessor while invisible from the ultimate you’d be able to reveal them.

  7. Frostweaver

    1.  The standard frostweaver ultimate does not need an invuln or barrier as it’s a fairly short animation lock which refills ice stores and mana. 

    2. The healing frostweaver ultimate does not need an invuln or barrier as it’s a fairly short animation lock which heals. 

    3. The Frostguard “Ice Block” ultimate needs to remain an invuln ability. It’s basically the entire point of the ultimate and should be a needed buff to what was before a rather lackluster ability since so many other ultimates provided an invuln. 

  8. Druid

    1. Both druid ultimates are tricky because they’re very long animation locks which root the druid in place and the effect is only useful while the animation is playing since they’re pulsing type abilities. Since it’s a 1,000 soul power ultimate and has a long animation lock that really requires the pulsing effect I think the druid ultimate needs to retain either a barrier or an invuln. 

  9. Cleric

    1. The cleric healing ultimate does not need a barrier or invuln since it’s a short animation lock and provides great healing. 

    2. The cleric damage ultimate is a fairly long animation lock but it’s a buff that lasts a fairly long time for a significant dmg boost. It’s fine without a barrier or an invuln.

  10. Ranger

    1. The ranger ultimate is a fairly short animation lock and provides a very good lifesteal buff so it does not need any barrier or invuln. 

  11. Duelist

    1. The duelist vanish ability will likely need similar treatment as the confessor ultimate where it gets a 20m “blink/teleport” baked into the ability so that you can get out of harm’s way but lose any barrier/invuln. Otherwise it will need to retain the invuln or you’ll just get instantly popped back out of stealth. 

    2. The duelist dynamite ultimate does not need an invuln or barrier as it does good damage, no animation lock, and is a 20m leap which resets dodge. 

  12. Assassin

    1. The assassin ultimate needs the same treatment as the confessor ultimate. Lose the invuln but make the blink/teleport 20m. 

    2. The Envenom ultimate from Deadly Infector does not need a barrier or invuln. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Is it really the existence of invulns that is the issue or the frequency? There are classes that get many more invulnerabilities per fight compared to others. For instance, my healing cleric, I get one invuln if it is ready to go and I don't really have an opportunity to charge another up in one fight. The barrier does help me survive just a little bit longer but I don't get another shot at it. 

Compared to other classes that can get 10 or more ultimates during one single fight with the invuln/barriers, is it really the existence of the invulns that is the issue or is it the frequency. 

I think it is the frequency in almost all cases. 

Edited by Spawl
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Hard disagree.

The ultimate invuln is often the ONLY counterplay you can get to a lot of high damaging abilities. If target-locked "hitscan" skills are going to connect for multiple thousands of damage, a player needs to be able to react to that with *something*. You shouldn't just die because someone looked at you and pressed a button. If you see the animation, you should be able to think: "hmm. That's ~3k of damage headed my way. I should do something about that so I don't get killed".

If anything, I'd like *more* invulns. Put them on dodges! Put them on movement skills! Keep them on ultimates.

This game has precious little play/counterplay going on in it right now. I don't want it to be a game where everyone merely points at each other and presses all their buttons. Invulns are a useful tool to react to damage.

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I disagree with the changing them myself . Templar for example takes 1m 30s to charge its ult to full. If its not precharged you're most likely not building it in a fight and the fight itself will be over before you have a chance to use it.

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Yes.

This.

A thousand time.

for a good part of them they are a get-out-of-jail-free card. And i do not think that no being able to charge them pre-fight would change significantly things, just delay it.

Overall i'm in for any change that would make easier to punish people that make a bad move. Instead, and the several nerf on retaliate made it less that way, it make the group combat feel stale, i remember 20+vs20+ fights from something like a year or two ago lasting at least 10 minutes when I feel that a 5 minute fight is already too long. And my feeling is that it reward the group that make the least mistakes instead of the one that did the better calls.

1459889836-gein-william.png

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7 minutes ago, Purpearl said:

Yes.

This.

A thousand time.

for a good part of them they are a get-out-of-jail-free card. And i do not think that no being able to charge them pre-fight would change significantly things, just delay it.

Overall i'm in for any change that would make easier to punish people that make a bad move. Instead, and the several nerf on retaliate made it less that way, it make the group combat feel stale, i remember 20+vs20+ fights from something like a year or two ago lasting at least 10 minutes when I feel that a 5 minute fight is already too long. And my feeling is that it reward the group that make the least mistakes instead of the one that did the better calls.

Some classes ulti speed will need tweaked for example as above templars taking 1:30 min to charge there which is thats the case it need 2 be sped up a little but i think the game would be so much better when your not precharging ultis and have to be in the fight to get it going.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Devil's Advocate

Since the way Crowfall's combat works, you can't really avoid damage. If somebody puts their cursor on your hitbox and hits their attack, it's going to hit you. You can't dodge it, or use "skill" to avoids it unless you have an invuln.

It feels like pretending to be an action game when it is really more like a tab target feel with heat seeking missles.

Invulns seem to me the only way you can apply skill (besides line of sight before the enemy attack goes off) to make your enemy miss.

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27 minutes ago, veeshan said:

Some classes ulti speed will need tweaked for example as above templars taking 1:30 min to charge there which is thats the case it need 2 be sped up a little but i think the game would be so much better when your not precharging ultis and have to be in the fight to get it going.

I do not see why this change in particular would solve anything. Ultimately I think it would really matter for the very first burst, but we're back to step one past that with ult that are saving you from death when you are doing a really bad mistake. And i'm pretty sure that would mess with melee that are having a way harder time hitting ennemis than range. And the current meta is already giving an edge for range.

And the way to charge it at the moment is fine. some are way to easy to have, for sure but that's fine. It's the invulnerability that is the problem IMHO.

If I would add a change after deleting invulnerability, it would be to turn it into a big CD instead of having to charge it. something like 60+ one.

14 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

Devil's Advocate

Since the way Crowfall's combat works, you can't really avoid damage. If somebody puts their cursor on your hitbox and hits their attack, it's going to hit you. You can't dodge it, or use "skill" to avoids it unless you have an invuln.

It feels like pretending to be an action game when it is really more like a tab target feel with heat seeking missles.

Invulns seem to me the only way you can apply skill (besides line of sight before the enemy attack goes off) to make your enemy miss.

It apply for both players in a 1v1. What i like in this is that it would make the one who take the initiative to have an edge. And after that it is up to you to make up for the DPS, by having a better rotation and a better use of your build. Or a better use of your defensive skills if you are a tank or outhealing him if you are a heal.

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I mean, there's definitely disparity between ultimates in general, and the usefulness of invuln on each of them.
The invuln on my Champion is a lot more useful than that on Confessor or Assassin. Or rather, it's more immediately useful, since I'd be in melee still fighting, and not invis and blinking away.
I think it has its place in certain situations, but not all, and there would need to be more careful balance between how quickly you gain something with invuln vs without, and obviously which powers get it. Not just a sweeping, everything has it or none do.

Edited by Groovin

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You guys are arguing as if it's this OR that.

We need

  1. Fewer hard invulns
  2. Actual dodge mechanics
  3. Hit box reductions
  4. Hit calculations on contact with spell effect, not on spell cast (i beg everyone to test block versus fire tornados. you have to block when the tornados cast, not when you cross their path, it's absolutely horrible design). I dodge from aurora emitter when i see the cast begin, but that's too late.
  5. Balanced ults
  6. Friendly fire outside of groups

Blazzen is 100% correct that the current ult invuln mechanic makes TTK arbitrarily long, and gives numbers a MASSIVE advantage. It is essentially impossible to punish a mistake as a small group, because the confessor that dove when they shouldn't have will just ult and run away to full health. The other massive advantage for numbers is AOE hit caps. Zergs don't need these advantages, you already have more numbers and body-blocking.

Edited by McTan
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Problem i have with changing the blink distance and removing the invulnerability is that you might not blink in the right direction, with invulnerability and stealth i get to choose which direction i escape to, and i can also sprint to increase the distance.

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20 minutes ago, McTan said:

 

Blazzen is 100% correct that the current ult invuln mechanic makes TTK arbitrarily long, and gives numbers a MASSIVE advantage. It is essentially impossible to punish a mistake as a small group, because the confessor that dove when they shouldn't have will just ult and run away to full health. The other massive advantage for numbers is AOE hit caps. Zergs don't need these advantages, you already have more numbers and body-blocking.

Definetly uncapping aoe cap would help alot imo.

Dodge should be a 1second invun however the ulti should have there invun removed (Maybe 50% dmg reduction during the animation but you shouldnt be 100% immune) and ultis should decay out of combat and balance ultis around that.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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47 minutes ago, McTan said:

You guys are arguing as if it's this OR that.

We need

  1. Fewer hard invulns
  2. Actual dodge mechanics
  3. Hit box reductions
  4. Hit calculations on contact with spell effect, not on spell cast (i beg everyone to test block versus fire tornados. you have to block when the tornados cast, not when you cross their path, it's absolutely horrible design). I dodge from aurora emitter when i see the cast begin, but that's too late.
  5. Balanced ults
  6. Friendly fire outside of groups

Blazzen is 100% correct that the current ult invuln mechanic makes TTK arbitrarily long, and gives numbers a MASSIVE advantage. It is essentially impossible to punish a mistake as a small group, because the confessor that dove when they shouldn't have will just ult and run away to full health. The other massive advantage for numbers is AOE hit caps. Zergs don't need these advantages, you already have more numbers and body-blocking.

 

Your point #4 is the crux of the issue and it's why invulns should exist IMO.

At this stage of the game, I think it's unlikely that the devs will be able to change the combat system from a mostly "hitscan" target-locked one to a projectile contact one. If they can, it'd be amazing, but I don't see it happening. Point #3, hitbox reductions may help, but they don't eliminate the core problem - which is that the damage is locked in before you have a chance to react to the animation.

So what can be done? Point #2: Actual dodge mechanics. That is, make the animation of a hit line up with the damage from the skill, then apply an invuln during dodge so that players can react to animations and negate incoming damage skillfully. Personally I think this should be a true invuln, contra point #1. True invulns actually let small groups punch up better against larger numbers. As an extreme example, if 1 opponent attacks you and you only have an 80% invuln, you take 20% of that opponent's damage. If 100 players take aim at you and you only have an 80% invuln, you take 20% of 100 players' damage - still easily enough to kill you.

#6, friendly fire would be really fun, but I don't think it would play well with certain class designs (eg. inquisitor). I'd enjoy a friendly fire campaign so we could test it though.

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1 hour ago, nihilsupernum said:

 

Your point #4 is the crux of the issue and it's why invulns should exist IMO.

At this stage of the game, I think it's unlikely that the devs will be able to change the combat system from a mostly "hitscan" target-locked one to a projectile contact one. If they can, it'd be amazing, but I don't see it happening. Point #3, hitbox reductions may help, but they don't eliminate the core problem - which is that the damage is locked in before you have a chance to react to the animation.

So what can be done? Point #2: Actual dodge mechanics. That is, make the animation of a hit line up with the damage from the skill, then apply an invuln during dodge so that players can react to animations and negate incoming damage skillfully. Personally I think this should be a true invuln, contra point #1. True invulns actually let small groups punch up better against larger numbers. As an extreme example, if 1 opponent attacks you and you only have an 80% invuln, you take 20% of that opponent's damage. If 100 players take aim at you and you only have an 80% invuln, you take 20% of 100 players' damage - still easily enough to kill you.

#6, friendly fire would be really fun, but I don't think it would play well with certain class designs (eg. inquisitor). I'd enjoy a friendly fire campaign so we could test it though.

I think we are pretty aligned, so I'll be more detailed. I definitely do not want no invulns. I'd rather see classes built around invulns and some not. I don't mind dodge being empowered to be invuln, but it would further cripple the relative power of dodge versus block. If dodges are given invuln they need to be made into stamina based, IMO.

The hitscan thing can work for most spells, but not things like tornados and spells with clear and long casting times. 

The way you are talking about true invulns in small vs. large is not a complete story. Yes, a small group can invuln right now. But so can the big group. The small group can beat the big group only if mistakes by the big group can be punished in a decisive way (death). In the current setup, I have seen many sub-par confessors escape disastrous mistakes because they have an insane invuln, blink, blind, stealth double-cast. The small group might invuln and protect themselves, but as you've seen in the 2:1 and 3:1 fights Dis v MWH, it's not enough to swing any fight, because you also invuln. And every outnumbered fights turns into attrition, which is easily won by the big group.

And I'd like to say to anyone who is currently running in the larger forces, that you should be very wary, because (if the game survives) the days are coming when we will all be teeny tiny fish compared to the blobs we'll see. And suddenly, a lot of opinions will change about the balance between big vs. small & skill in the game. Now is the time for veteran PvP MMO players to scream to the devs that the current setup will not work, because the wolves will never beat the sheep outnumbered, it'll simply be a stampede of no-thought casting and invulns.

Edited by McTan
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If they take barriers and invulns off the ults then hopefully they will give I frames on dodges. Allows BS like soulsteal, blight, frost bs and other puddles to be countered for a second. Oh and no invuln on ult means some animations need to be sped up.

Edited by BehindYou
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6 minutes ago, McTan said:

The way you are talking about true invulns in small vs. large is not a complete story. Yes, a small group can invuln right now. But so can the big group. The small group can beat the big group only if mistakes by the big group can be punished in a decisive way (death). In the current setup, I have seen many sub-par confessors escape disastrous mistakes because they have an insane invuln, blink, blind, stealth double-cast. The small group might invuln and protect themselves, but as you've seen in the 2:1 and 3:1 fights Dis v MWH, it's not enough to swing any fight, because you also invuln. And every outnumbered fights turns into attrition, which is easily won by the big group.

That's true, and it's a function of this game's long-ish TTK, I think. Still, I like a small group's odds against a larger one better with 100% invuln than with partial invuln. 100% invuln does proportionally more work for the small group than it does for the large one. The small group's hope is that the large group spends their invulns frivolously and doesn't have them when they need them, meanwhile the small group stays alive against larger odds by preventing all incoming damage at critical moments.

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They used to be invulns and they took it out for a reason and changed it to barriers, but because of wreckoning they changed it to a 75% PDM instead... somewhere in there it changed to an invuln again. not sure why, the 75% PDM is fine. Even the barriers were fine, but it was a lazy fix for wreckoning.

I say go back to 75% PDM and make dodge an actual iframe like in most if not all games. right now dodge is just a gap closer pretty much

Edited by yianni
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7 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Devil's Advocate

Since the way Crowfall's combat works, you can't really avoid damage. If somebody puts their cursor on your hitbox and hits their attack, it's going to hit you. You can't dodge it, or use "skill" to avoids it unless you have an invuln.

It feels like pretending to be an action game when it is really more like a tab target feel with heat seeking missles.

Invulns seem to me the only way you can apply skill (besides line of sight before the enemy attack goes off) to make your enemy miss.

 

3 hours ago, yianni said:

They used to be invulns and they took it out for a reason and changed it to barriers, but because of wreckoning they changed it to a 75% PDM instead... somewhere in there it changed to an invuln again. not sure why, the 75% PDM is fine. Even the barriers were fine, but it was a lazy fix for wreckoning.

I say go back to 75% PDM and make dodge an actual iframe like in most if not all games. right now dodge is just a gap closer pretty much

Both of these explain the core issue that I hope the devs realize. The core issue isn't an easy fix. I'd argue there are many variables affecting this outcome but adding an iframe to dodge and the previous damage mitigation to ults is a step in the right direction (and promotes more skillful counterplay). However, it's worth noting that races with the 22 sec gap closer will be at a clear disadvantage over those that can spam an iframe more often. It's important to keep in mind that versatility will always dominate the PvP meta. The more spammable iframe fits into that perspective as you're better prepared for the dynamics of pvp combat in both large and small scale.  

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