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Templar Devotion Buff Idea


Pyetrek
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Hello Forum people.  Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but I did a quick search and didn't really see anything substantial or mention of this idea. @CrusaderW has some good ideas here, although I don't agree with them all (especially the exorcist comment.  Exorcist + devotion means capped out devotion heal for paladins, pretty sweet deal imo).

Suggestion: Keep the capped 200 heal every second on devotion, but change it so that it keeps track of past damage, and will roll any damage over the cap forward to the next interval. You can also cap this damage store at say 1000, and devotion will drain from that store 200 every second to heal yourself and your allies until that damage store runs out. There are alot of different ways you could tweak devotion to make it stronger or weaker, but the main goal is to keep healing in line, but make it feel consistent and not pigeon hole users into figuring out how to do damage every second to get the most use out of the skill.

Details/Explanations:

Let me give you an example. If I hit someone for 500 dmg, devotion will proc for 200. But the next second while I am in my next animation it does nothing, essentially wasting all that potential healing. With the suggestion implemented, that 500 dmg will get stored, the next time devotion procs, it will heal for 200, and store that extra 300 damage. If I do no more damage, devotion will proc for 200 again (storing the last 100), and then finally it will heal for 100. It's basically a slow release healing mechanic.

I was told that devotion did not have a cap at one time, and you would see crazy healing amounts from executes, making them over powered. With this change, you will see more consistent healing, even from vindicators. It doesn't matter how fast you build up your devotion damage, it will heal for a single amount, and is something that can be more easily balanced. Players too can take advantage of longer animation/cast times on skills and vary their approach to the class. Their single goal is to reach 200 dps, it doesn't matter how they do it, or when that damage gets registered (1k damage every 5 seconds or 400 every 2). In the current state I always run exorcist soul steal to make sure that devotion procs for as close to max healing as possible on my templars. Without it, you are losing out on alot of potential healing and makes you fall behind in a very competitive healing meta.

This change really affects smaller scale combat, where the field is more mobile, and the templar struggles in already.  Now, as the combat moves, and there are breaks in dps due to kiting, there is still some good healing that can be built up and feel meaningful. I think this would be a welcome buff that everyone can agree with.

The other aspect is to look at group combat.  I don't really see this change affecting group combat all that much, other than you might see more furies or vindicators. Right now, I think it is pretty easy to hit that devotion cap just with auto attacks + sprit whip or reproach, or holy warrior battle hammers, elken damage stake the list goes on.  The key here is that there are lots of people to hit, so even 50 damage/sec on 5 people adds up very quickly, and will let you cap devotion heals. What you might start to see is less focus on dps focused templars (ie. vindicator), focusing more on single target DPS and chasing executes vs trying to figure out how to add AoE dmg to their build to proc heals that every other class gets for free.

Tuning Knobs:

As previously mentioned there are a bunch of ways that this change can be tweaked over time to help keep it balanced in the game or make it feel better.  I will list the ones I can think of below:

  • Add a cap on the damage store.  A cap of 200 would make it feel exactly the same as it does today, while a cap of 1000 would give you some breathing room after landing a successful critical execute to line up some more DPS. Or, make the cap insanely high (50K +, basically unlimited), and now you set templars up to do a big damage combo, and get rewarded with a consistent heal over the next 20 seconds of devotion.
  • Change how much devotion heals. This knob already exists, but you can still change how much devotion heals each second to keep it inline with other healing mechanics.
  • Keep the healing/damage store buff separate from the devotion buff that lets you add damage to the healing store. This lets you do some funky things like make the damage store expire after 5 seconds, forcing you to do more consistent damage over the devotion period. The more exciting aspect of this is that you can have the damage store last longer than devotion itself. This would allow you to time your damage near the end of devotion to max out your damage store, and then enjoy healing from it even after devotion buff has ended and potentially (if played right) always see healing for your group.
  • Change how devotion works for each of the promotion classes. This knob also already exists and we see it in play for the paladin. If healing is too strong on the vindicator side, you can always tweak it like divine light, and have the vindicator promotion class change devotion to only heal itself, or have reduced healing to nearby allies.
  • Change the radius to which devotion can heal. Again, this knob already exists, but it can help control how groups needs to play in order to receive heals from a templar (tighter stacks, vs free-for-all).
  • Because the healing part of devotion is not so tightly coupled with how damage is done, you can more easily balance either DPS or Healing. With this change, if you were to change the execute animation time, you didn't all of a sudden buff or nerf healing for a particular templar build, it would remain unchanged. This lets you be concise about where and how you want to make changes to the game, and avoids accidental buffs/nerfs.
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I don't see the problem with devotion.  Right now it has utility + healing on 2 of the specs.  The vindicator doesn't need it (sure they can make a build with it but don't see the point).

Devotion heals can surpass the cap due to healing modifiers but it's not crazy.  What ties it down is the needing damage component which is a good thing.  It makes you think when to use it & how. 

How are people still struggling with healing and templar mobility in open field fights? All the new tools that opened up to us & builds we can create has changed alot of this.  Especially with all the skills to generate pips is +2.   Hell depending on the build you can still generate pips through the 1k healing minor for small scale & should never be empty. The only place you should be pip starved is 1 vs 1 against a ranged character & there are ways to mitigate that so you don't get destroyed.

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1 hour ago, MrErad said:

I don't see the problem with devotion.  Right now it has utility + healing on 2 of the specs.  The vindicator doesn't need it (sure they can make a build with it but don't see the point).

Why don't you see the point? As a vindicator, how do you stand toe to toe with any of the other classes? Hope you do more damage to them then they do to you and that they don't have any sort of self sustain? I am really struggling trying to play one right now, and I have played several other classes with great success including a paladin.

The way I see it is that every other melee class either has access to lifesteal, or a built in heal that scales well and makes sense in all situations.  To put the templar's devotion (primary source of healing on a vindicator) and lock it behind a weird mechanic like this makes it impossible to effectively use in small scale engagements, and really hinders specific builds in larger scale if they want to cap it out.

1 hour ago, MrErad said:

How are people still struggling with healing and templar mobility in open field fights?

I don't think templar mobility is lacking. I think that it is actually on par with other classes. Some builds may have less mobility than others, but that's the way the game works. You can't have it all.

I do think the healing is lacking in small scale, especially for vindicator (I cannot comment on fury at this time, but I imagine it is in the same boat). Why do you not think that healing is lacking in small scale for vindi + fury? Heck, even for a paladin played "properly" and capping out devotion heal, you are still healing for way less on your base kit than other classes get at the click of a button (Illuminate anyone?). So if healing in a small scale engagement is twice (exponentially?) as hard, why bother playing the class?

1 hour ago, MrErad said:

Devotion heals can surpass the cap due to healing modifiers but it's not crazy.  What ties it down is the needing damage component which is a good thing.  It makes you think when to use it & how.

I never said remove the damage component from it, I said we should be able to stack damage against it easier. Given a single judgment combo takes 2-3 seconds to fully complete, you are missing out on alot of potential healing right there. As I already explained, adding in this mechanic will not change the spirit of the ability at all, you will still need to do damage to get healed. It is, however, a huge quality of life improvement.  Feel free to prove me wrong though. I think this would be a welcome change by everyone.

 

@MrErad please fill us all in on the templar secrets. If they don't need a change, why do I see very few people playing them?

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I'm with MrErad on this one.  It's hard to justify a design change like that.  An ability that works well in certain situations is what the design team is aiming for.  If you told me that the ability is terrible in every situation then we could probably talk about why.

I would start with something along the lines of a 200 healing cap does not scale at all against the damage scaling everyone will obtain via vessels and gear.

Edited by Atraeus
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3 hours ago, Pyetrek said:

 

Why don't you see the point? As a vindicator, how do you stand toe to toe with any of the other classes? Hope you do more damage to them then they do to you and that they don't have any sort of self sustain? I am really struggling trying to play one right now, and I have played several other classes with great success including a paladin.

The way I see it is that every other melee class either has access to lifesteal, or a built in heal that scales well and makes sense in all situations.  To put the templar's devotion (primary source of healing on a vindicator) and lock it behind a weird mechanic like this makes it impossible to effectively use in small scale engagements, and really hinders specific builds in larger scale if they want to cap it out.

I don't think templar mobility is lacking. I think that it is actually on par with other classes. Some builds may have less mobility than others, but that's the way the game works. You can't have it all.

I do think the healing is lacking in small scale, especially for vindicator (I cannot comment on fury at this time, but I imagine it is in the same boat). Why do you not think that healing is lacking in small scale for vindi + fury? Heck, even for a paladin played "properly" and capping out devotion heal, you are still healing for way less on your base kit than other classes get at the click of a button (Illuminate anyone?). So if healing in a small scale engagement is twice (exponentially?) as hard, why bother playing the class?

I never said remove the damage component from it, I said we should be able to stack damage against it easier. Given a single judgment combo takes 2-3 seconds to fully complete, you are missing out on alot of potential healing right there. As I already explained, adding in this mechanic will not change the spirit of the ability at all, you will still need to do damage to get healed. It is, however, a huge quality of life improvement.  Feel free to prove me wrong though. I think this would be a welcome change by everyone.

 

@MrErad please fill us all in on the templar secrets. If they don't need a change, why do I see very few people playing them?

Vindicator has  some better options and it should kill its target before it dies with its high damage output. I currently have a white one that is working well & currently setting up a blue vessel version to see how it performs. Currently torn between battle & fire on the versions I play and wind is ok but not my favorite so far. Basically you want to increase your TTK before you expire and put as much pain on the opponent.  All the new options we have for Templars are viable across all versions.  The upside is like before each race also brings some uniqueness to each kit.  Hell I've messed with one that was using thorny warrior outputting nearly 1k spins on a Vindi and 400pt bleeds.  That was on the high end of damage but gave some interesting ideas for me to work with.

6.3 Addresses this with divine light healing the vindicator only. This is a very good change even though its a small amount of HP this will increase the sustain on said vindicator.  Devotion was ok in previous versions for the vindicator but wasn't omg healing and most the time you used it to give yourself a slightly longer TTK.  With more healing options and passives + barriers tossed around it really isnt needed.    Devotion reaches out to 50m just an fyi. Explain to me why the Vindicator needs devotion? You can still take it but you will give up a lot more than what you would be getting in return for its hp returned. All the options we have access to work better.

Problem is Vindicators aren't healers they're DPS self sustain in small scale is fine through barriers and the current skills available.  Fury is in the same boat its not a healer but can do some off healing which is ok.   Both of them can survive and increase their TTK & the fury trades plate for less dps. 

Paladins - Healing burst on my white is 1170 non crit with non player crafted gear.  Think it crits in the 1800 range.  My blue version on the other hand can crit this for nearly 2k with a junk white player made sword(might be higher since I dont pay attention). Divine light is 480/738 on the white.  This is Paladin built more toward offensive use  instead of straight healing.  Are clerics easier to play with their 50m press of a button heals? Sure.  Is a Paladin 2x as hard to play as a cleric? Not in the least.  They serve different purposes.

@PyetrekVery few people play them because they aren't easy mode.  Most people move to whats broken or currently OP & Templars dont fall into that category.

Edited by MrErad
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I don't understand how everyone has issues with Templar. MrEmad had has mastered this class. I think you weekend warriors need to stop trying to modify the class and listen to what he says and start some real testing. I disagree with him releasing his knowledge to the public. He has put in the work, no reason others can't do so. It's not like he's some savant. I thought part of these games was testing builds, learning, adjusting and trying new things. Just seems like most people look for the "broken/OP" classes and just move to the next one once it gets patched. You aren't doing yourself any favors. Play the game... do the work... stop running in a zerg and get into more small / medium fights.  

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@Darksun_ don't be rude and assume things.  I am not part of a zerg, I would consider myself decent at most video games (by far not the best), and I have put in several hours trying to make a vindicator in general work.  I have spent significant less time on any other class that I have played and they work just fine for me. Given those data points, I start to think about how to make the class more appealing to the masses.

@MrEradThanks for sharing the tips. Maybe I fundamentally just don't like the vindicator play style.  I can't help but notice that in any of your descriptions of why a particular promotion class was good you never mentioned devotion. Why is that? If the skill is truly awesome, and has no problems, why not make it part of your build.  To be clear (maybe my original post was not clear enough), the change I am suggesting is in no way a buff to the actual power of a templar, it is more a quality of life change to players, as well as an improvement to the game system that makes it easier to manage moving forward when considering balancing patches to different skills.

I think the disagreement here is not about the skill, or the change I am suggesting, but with what you think the important elements of a game like this are. For me, I personally think that this is a competitive game, and that all characters should have similar learning curves. This also means that all skills should have a similar learning curve, and are satisfying to use. For me, devotion is not in that state compared to other skills. It is clumsy to use, and the payoff of using it "correctly" (ie. maximizing its potential/being a master) doesn't give you an advantage at all. I believe that disciplines should be used to compliment your skills. In its current state, devotion requires a discipline to be used effectively. Finally, your skill and mastery of a class should come down to knowledge about the game, knowledge about your opponent, knowing how to use the environment to your advantage, and timing critical skills like your parry or ultimate to block a large chunk of damage, or get a heal at the right time.  As it stand now, devotion doesn't fit any of those criteria.

So, I guess what you guys are saying is just get rid of devotion all together? It's clearly not being used in builds, so why bother having the skill? It's just extra code that needs to be maintained for no added benefit. What would you replace the skill with? Or would you? Would that spot on the talent tree just be another stat cluster? You have not sufficiently convinced me that the skill is in a good spot, all you have told me is that templar is in a good spot (to which I agree), and that you don't care about the quality of game play, that it doesn't need to change because you figured it out (or don't use it).

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16 hours ago, Atraeus said:

I would start with something along the lines of a 200 healing cap does not scale at all against the damage scaling everyone will obtain via vessels and gear.

Why would you ever change the cap?  It is perfectly in line with other healing skills (it might be a bit too high to be honest).  On a healing oriented character you are easily seeing that jump to close to 300/sec.

Maybe you need to reread my post. It does not give any more maximum healing potential to devotion, it just makes that maximum more realistically achievable in a variety of situations.

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15 minutes ago, Pyetrek said:

Why would you ever change the cap?  It is perfectly in line with other healing skills (it might be a bit too high to be honest).  On a healing oriented character you are easily seeing that jump to close to 300/sec.

Maybe you need to reread my post. It does not give any more maximum healing potential to devotion, it just makes that maximum more realistically achievable in a variety of situations.

You're right, I shouldn't have given that as an example.  You need to make the case that devotion shouldn't ever be taken on any templar.  Otherwise your suggestions will be overlooked because folks have already found situational utility in it.

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1 hour ago, Pyetrek said:

@Darksun_ don't be rude and assume things.  I am not part of a zerg, I would consider myself decent at most video games (by far not the best), and I have put in several hours trying to make a vindicator in general work.  I have spent significant less time on any other class that I have played and they work just fine for me. Given those data points, I start to think about how to make the class more appealing to the masses.

@MrEradThanks for sharing the tips. Maybe I fundamentally just don't like the vindicator play style.  I can't help but notice that in any of your descriptions of why a particular promotion class was good you never mentioned devotion. Why is that? If the skill is truly awesome, and has no problems, why not make it part of your build.  To be clear (maybe my original post was not clear enough), the change I am suggesting is in no way a buff to the actual power of a templar, it is more a quality of life change to players, as well as an improvement to the game system that makes it easier to manage moving forward when considering balancing patches to different skills.

I think the disagreement here is not about the skill, or the change I am suggesting, but with what you think the important elements of a game like this are. For me, I personally think that this is a competitive game, and that all characters should have similar learning curves. This also means that all skills should have a similar learning curve, and are satisfying to use. For me, devotion is not in that state compared to other skills. It is clumsy to use, and the payoff of using it "correctly" (ie. maximizing its potential/being a master) doesn't give you an advantage at all. I believe that disciplines should be used to compliment your skills. In its current state, devotion requires a discipline to be used effectively. Finally, your skill and mastery of a class should come down to knowledge about the game, knowledge about your opponent, knowing how to use the environment to your advantage, and timing critical skills like your parry or ultimate to block a large chunk of damage, or get a heal at the right time.  As it stand now, devotion doesn't fit any of those criteria.

So, I guess what you guys are saying is just get rid of devotion all together? It's clearly not being used in builds, so why bother having the skill? It's just extra code that needs to be maintained for no added benefit. What would you replace the skill with? Or would you? Would that spot on the talent tree just be another stat cluster? You have not sufficiently convinced me that the skill is in a good spot, all you have told me is that templar is in a good spot (to which I agree), and that you don't care about the quality of game play, that it doesn't need to change because you figured it out (or don't use it).

Don't get me wrong the Vindicator Style is a little awkward these days. I think the old versions we had better discipline choices.

The reason I never mention devotion is that its good enough on the other 2 promotions.  Paladins can heal very well off it & get a cleanse,  Fury gets some minor off healing + movement cleanse for the group.  For the vindicator is would be a wasted talent pick for how little you would get in return.  Applying Sin when its not guaranteed on each strike bites especially if you're trying to pair it with prosecute.  For some reason the devs think this is ok but the confessor can basically count 5 hits then absolution you. 

See I disagree with your statement on devotion don't fit any of the criteria and only partial agreement with the vindicator if chosen doesnt really fit.  Knowing when to sync the devotion with your skills to heal matters.  50m range with healing towards the group is nice even if its tied into me having to do damage.  What I would advocate for is why is SIN so useless on a templar?  Our Censure now applies 1 stack , devotion has a chance but we get no benefit from it.  The only way it does anything is paired with the Convictor Major with the chance to apply sin making it questionable when to pop off the Prosecute. 

We could ask for a buff to devotion to make Sin something but it would have to be good enough to make a vindicator want it but the other 2 will benefit automatically from said choice.  Devotion is a matter of when to use instead of I need to use it which is fine. Sometimes on my Paladin I sync it with my divine light and other skills sometimes I weave it in with other skills when divine is down.  Other times I use it for the cleanse aspect.  You could advocate for a promotion to it for the Vindi so more doors open and another hard choice happens.    So far Vindi is the only spec I wouldn't waste my time picking up devotion on. It doesnt mean there isnt a build out there that could use it though but I could never give up the execute & fire damage bonus plus a few others for an on activation skill that will allow me to heal a little.  This doens't mean with the 6.3 changes that it would be a bad choice either. I haven't tested it again with the divine self healing + devotion on test to see what type of performance I can get out of the Vindi (maybe I'll do this later).




 

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Just now, Tofyzer said:

Devotion is fine as it is imo, i even run it on my Vindicator Test server build

Yeah I just rolled one up on test to see what kind of healing output I can get on it.  Seems fine for what its doing.  Still wouldn't take it on my vindicator but I could see a few builds to pair up with it.

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4 hours ago, MrErad said:

50m range with healing towards the group is nice even if its tied into me having to do damage

The suggested change completely maintains this aspect.

I am curious what you guys think about this particular aspect of the change:

Quote
  • Because the healing part of devotion is not so tightly coupled with how damage is done, you can more easily balance either DPS or Healing. With this change, if you were to change the execute animation time, you didn't all of a sudden buff or nerf healing for a particular templar build, it would remain unchanged. This lets you be concise about where and how you want to make changes to the game, and avoids accidental buffs/nerfs.

I am also curious what non-templar mains think about the suggestion.

Does anyone know if there is a crowfall manifesto or game design vision document around how the team wants to game to function and what their intentions are?  I see comments like "An ability that works well in certain situations is what the design team is aiming for," but is there anywhere this is actually documented or are people just guessing? That particular comment I would argue is just not true based on 99% of skills being useable in any situation.

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4 minutes ago, Pyetrek said:

The suggested change completely maintains this aspect.

I am curious what you guys think about this particular aspect of the change:

I am also curious what non-templar mains think about the suggestion.

Does anyone know if there is a crowfall manifesto or game design vision document around how the team wants to game to function and what their intentions are?  I see comments like "An ability that works well in certain situations is what the design team is aiming for," but is there anywhere this is actually documented or are people just guessing? That particular comment I would argue is just not true based on 99% of skills being useable in any situation.

Not that I'm aware of. Most of the stuff we have no clue if that was the intentions for a skill.  Upside is devs are currently balancing things so you never know what will change.  Execute animation time is a problem?  Any faster and I would start feeling bad for the leather users.

 

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Just now, MrErad said:

Not that I'm aware of. Most of the stuff we have no clue if that was the intentions for a skill.  Upside is devs are currently balancing things so you never know what will change.  Execute animation time is a problem?  Any faster and I would start feeling bad for the leather users.

That was used as an example.  I'm not saying it is or it isn't.  What I am saying is if you implement my suggestion, you have decoupled the healing mechanic from the damage mechanic for devotion.  So, if you were to (for example) change animation times for DPS skills, you can be sure that you did not inadvertently affect the healing from devotion and make it unbalanced. It's a pretty nice side effect in my opinion for the system design side of things.

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I may be taking this out of context, but this is what I typically reference

"I will say as a caveat to this is when you give people hard choices and you give them this amount of variety in builds, there are builds that are going to be good, and there are gonna be builds that are bad, and there are going to be builds that are great and builds that are terrible.  That is part of the design approach.  You embrace the fact that not all builds are created equal.  Now we still do have our overriding idea that no build should be the best, no one build should be the best in every situation, but you will have builds that are the best in particular situations." - J. Todd Coleman, October Q&A 2020

 

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