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Crafting is dead


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5 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I honestly think that the whole promise of being able to "keep up" as a casual was bait that would only trap the unwize

I understand your point and thanks for sharing your view as a dedicated crafter in the "Belt Age".
You addressed with fine arguments my complaint and reduced my frustration.

You missed just a main issue, which is the lack of an account progression.
From 6.3* onwards, do you think a skillful crafter can sustain himself out of a main guild, while such guilds can conjure similar crafter at will?

It is unwise for a casual trying to "keep up" with a player who spend a daily amount of time on this game.
On the other hand the "Belt Age" is going to create an incolmable gap between a casual which play as a dedicated crafter in a large guild and a casual which play as a dedicated crafter in a small guild.
Do you think I'm wrong? 

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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I accept that Crowfall has a long way to go. I accept change has to be as it is healthy for evolution. I do NOT accept removal of PASSIVE SKILL TREES. For as much as Devs have to suit the needs '

I don't agree with you. I enjoy crafting and being a merchant in every game I play. The time lock on crafting and gathering made it so I couldn't do anything I enjoyed doing and create self progress.

the problem is with the current system of grinding to get disciplines isnt fun and seems like a chore, mostly because of so much clicking that needs to happen in addition to the amount of resources th

They just need a system that doesn't revolve around RNG. Even as a placeholder the current system is terrible. The game, overall, is better without the passive progression.

Edited by Helix
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My opinion is crafting is more alive now than it was with the Passive system.  I am a crafter, I actually play this game, and I've been around for several wipes. 

I never have agreed with the premise that someone should get an unfair advantage simply because they bought a game earlier than someone else.  If a catch-up mechanic was ever introduced, it would have been buried behind a paywall which I would consider pay to win.  People being forced to buy multiple accounts to craft is not a feature, its a huge red flag when trying to attract new gamers.  Any person who took combat seriously, would also be forced to not craft on that account as the gains from Combat/Exploration trees are too great to pass up on the long term.  The time you also needed to wait to whack nodes, to dig graves, to make simple gear better than wartribe drops was very restrictive.

I am a guild primary Leatherworker, here is where i currently am at in "Belt Age."

I have consumed 2500 dust making white leather boots unrolled.
Progression for efficiency is Green Disc >>> Blue Belt >>> Legendary
In 3 crafting sessions ranging between 2-3 Hours, I have procced a total of over 40 green leatherworker disciplines.  Considering material Investment, gold investment and time investment, this is a good balance for this professions grind.  I am where i was at in the passive system, actually fairing slightly better.  Without a campaign table, i am making better combat armour (and gathering) than wartribes, with higher armour.  At this point the "grind" is officially over and it becomes a personal goal to improve my crafter further, not a guild objective.  I won't stop the progression, but i will not put an active drain on guild resources to do so as its unnecessary.

I will get my epic belt, i will then get my Legendary belt, then i will then upgrade a vessel, and then get another legendary discipline.  The cycle is still there for long term growth of crafting, all there is now is a clamp on the rate in which guilds can increase their powercreep due to the gold required.  Smaller guilds gain much from this, as the loss of a crafter normally hits them hardest, now you do not need to wait on an account to level up, you can get together as a guild and grind out a competent replacement crafter within a day of concentrated effort, especially if a guild is responsible and holds disciplines for long term stability.  Remember, everything is happening at once right now, so equipping a whole roster with gather/crafting belts and discs at once will not be how it is once the system has matured.

Now there are small issues, but they aren't the end of the world, as this is a beta.  Gathering discs/belts tried too hard to mimmick the trees perfectly that now a single persons day grind can get a harvester bringing in over a stack of dust and an excessive amount of resources.  Runecrafter needs its advanced tool disc drop rate upped, roughly needs a 30% increase in drops to bring it in line with other crafts.  Also RNG needs to go, make its backend xp based, that way it can easily be tuned and peoples opinions wouldn't be based on very few drops or lucky rng streaks.

To end this wall of text, i'll say that every mmo i've played (been mmo gaming since 2003), crafting either was lackluster and generic, or required significant grind and wasted materials, this one at least you can use basic materials to grind out what you need to do.

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They need to do away with RNG on disc drops.

and they need to rework resource distribution aswell as recipe distributions. Blacksmithing and ores is to prevelant over the other resource types by alot. need to share the love between all resource types and profession a little better.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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19 minutes ago, mcfizzlestag said:

 

I have consumed 2500 dust making white leather boots unrolled.
Progression for efficiency is Green Disc >>> Blue Belt >>> Legendary
In 3 crafting sessions ranging between 2-3 Hours, I have procced a total of over 40 green leatherworker disciplines.  Considering material Investment, gold investment and time investment, this is a good balance for this professions grind.  I am where i was at in the passive system, actually fairing slightly better.  Without a campaign table, i am making better combat armour (and gathering) than wartribes, with higher armour.  At this point the "grind" is officially over and it becomes a personal goal to improve my crafter further, not a guild objective.  I won't stop the progression, but i will not put an active drain on guild resources to do so as its unnecessary.

I farm 750-1000 dust an hour when im farming for gold sooo that dust cost isnt to bad tbh.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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10 hours ago, RikForFun said:

I understand your point and thanks for sharing your view as a dedicated crafter in the "Belt Age".
You addressed with fine arguments my complaint and reduced my frustration.

You missed just a main issue, which is the lack of an account progression.
From 6.3* onwards, do you think a skillful crafter can sustain himself out of a main guild, while such guilds can conjure similar crafter at will?

It is unwise for a casual trying to "keep up" with a player who spend a daily amount of time on this game.
On the other hand the "Belt Age" is going to create an incolmable gap between a casual which play as a dedicated crafter in a large guild and a casual which play as a dedicated crafter in a small guild.
Do you think I'm wrong? 

That sir, is a very good question.

The answer I think is, they are missing a few systems to support a good economy market, that will make it really hard.  Not impossible, but hard. 

The biggest hurdle to getting belts is gold, so I think the real question is, "Can a skillful solo player make enough gold to build a business on".  In reality, that is exactly what it would be like. If you want to start a new business, you need a base investment before things turn on.  The "bait" that passive training was, was that investment simply came to you over time.  You will need seed capital to start up, get established, and then make sales to "customers" who are players outside of a guild that are high enough profit to continue progression, without relying on hours of personal gold farming. 

The game certainly lacks marketing support, and will make it harder, but I suspect that with enough drive a person will be able to find a market for goods amongst the players.  


 

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I've read most of your comments, I saw that some of you mentioned the issue of RNG; missing the multiple crafting skills on one character. I've come up with some thoughts regarding this.
tl;dr

  • dropping RNG factor to Upgrade Discs, but still having it for fun
  • XP system for crafting
  • Major Disc Slot available for Exploration Discs as well

Crafting RNG for fun not for improving crafting skills

RNG most of the times is just annoying, but in certain scenarios can be rewarding, take for example unique drops, you have to grind, but once you get the item it feels special and can raise your reputation in the community.
In crafting/gathering I'd have the RNG factor be present as a rewarding experience. It could drop a cosmetic component which could be used to make your crafted gear more unique. This could lead to different colored items, ice looking blades, fancy armors... you know what I mean. People who aren't interested in this don't have to grind since there is no stat based benefit, but people who are into this can have a rewarding experience. 

XP System for crafting

Someone of you mentioned it in a comment before, that instead of depending on RNG there should be a some kind of a leveling system for Crafting. I imagine that while doing crafting/gathering you could level up or gain XP for the equipped Exploration Disc. This system could also lead to a "Crafting Talent" which could be kind of a mix between earlier passive tree and the current active system.

What is common in both RNG and Leveling is that you have to craft "mindlessly". Which to be honest isn't such a bad thing, because if you think about it, in IRL as well you have to practice something to master it or to be better in it.

Major Disc Slot available for Exploration Discs as well

I've also read something that in earlier passive system you could focus entirely on crafting, even learning lot of crafting skills which is now limited to two. What if Major Disc slots could be used for Exploration Discs as well? Then you would have to sacrifice some cool combat skills with a character to have more crafting/gathering. 

With this you could have a character more versatile in crafting. This would lead to characters being less of a fighter but more crafter. So you still could defend yourself, but less effectively especially vs someone else who is combat focused. Maybe you should have to have someone as a bodyguard or need a group in heavy pvp zones.

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On 12/15/2020 at 3:11 PM, Jah said:

You mean on one character? You have six character slots. You can master all the crafting professions now. Before you would have had to wait literally years to master all crafting professions via passive training.. And even then you'd want multiple characters for those professions, because some race/class combos are better than other for different crafting professions.

It  kills the need for dedicated crafters. This game was supposed to be the bees knees when it came to crafting and they have fallen well short of that. A robust crafting system needs to reward crafters who dedicate game time and allow them to separate themselves from the pack of part time crafters. In all their promo video's and post kickstarter video's they imagined out loud about "mercantile empire's" similar to what we saw in SWG. In opinion they are falling well short of what was promised and fall well outside the vision they originally portrayed. Now instead of admitting they made a broken game, they are going to double down with more bad idea's. 

 

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- Man, do you remember when this game was PVP???
> Shut up and keep harvesting!!
 

* Hey!!!!!, how long do you need to bring more skins ???
> I'm goinggggg...

 

"Black chronicles"

____ Xuten RR ______________________________

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the problem is with the current system of grinding to get disciplines isnt fun and seems like a chore, mostly because of so much clicking that needs to happen in addition to the amount of resources that are being wasted for crap gear thats not as good as tribe gear and now chest gear in dregs. so basically youre wasting time, and resources in the hopes to get disciplines to upgrade them. 

a salvage system would help to at least get some poorly made dergs back from the crap that gets crafted but even then its still a waste

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On 12/16/2020 at 1:56 AM, Jah said:

No doubt. In Crowfall the definition of "zerg" is basically just any guild that actually shows up and plays with 10 people. I've been called a zerg enough times that I'm not going to deny it anymore.

Lord Lirik will save this game, u have my paws. 

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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On 12/21/2020 at 7:57 PM, yianni said:

the problem is with the current system of grinding to get disciplines isnt fun and seems like a chore, mostly because of so much clicking that needs to happen in addition to the amount of resources that are being wasted for crap gear thats not as good as tribe gear and now chest gear in dregs. so basically youre wasting time, and resources in the hopes to get disciplines to upgrade them. 

a salvage system would help to at least get some poorly made dergs back from the crap that gets crafted but even then its still a waste

*I mention this 4 years ago when Necromancy was about to be implemented in CF.. In Shadowbane it was an own unique class.. -_-

However in Crowfall we need to harvest and upgrade, but some of us will hit the end game eventually to peeveep until we roll a new spec. characters. I dont understand the point with Necromancy, it is the most hot garbage game feature of Crowfall including the whole passive training which has been fixed recently. 

What if "Necromancy" was a power, summon the dead, spell power, a simple power Rune! I am really annoyed about Necromancy and how it was implemented, because it is obvious to me the game in whole lack content with such short cuts so players have to do something to compete and be active in an mmo.  

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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On 12/15/2020 at 2:53 PM, PopeUrban said:

No, you won't.

We've got table rolled blue vessels and weapons on vendors.  This weekend, we'll have epics available too! :D

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The game was pitched as a PvP game where crafting would be important, not the other way around. Honestly, I think with keeps being the way they are now they should have never added crafting in the first place. Stuff like holding resource nodes and sacrificing items earned from PvP and rare PvE spawns should be how players get favors from the gods in the form of weapons and gear, sometimes some that are only unique to a campaign that pass many hands as battles rage on.

It'd be like an RTS game, where hurting and defending economy are valid strats, but the farming/building is mostly automated by worker drones while players do the attacking, defending, planning. 

I'm not sure why they saw the need to add such a complicated crafting system, but it should never have been allowed to get this far out of control. I'm sorry that, as a crafter, the experienced is ruined for you, but I don't think this was ever supposed to be Crafting the MMORPG, and many PvE MMOs are far better suited for crafting and crafters (especially since they really like to whine when attacked while harvesting), like FFXIV.

The game's more a trade war simulator than it is a throne war simulator atm, so I don't agree with you. Crafting needs to get kicked in the balls and become a far less important part of the game, as it's just one of the too many grinds and will never fit perfectly. A guild will have its one or two god crafters with a billion alts/accounts that they funnel resources to and everyone else will get laughed at, or everyone will have to be their own crafters because there simply aren't enough people who care to form a real economy.

Either way, I only see it getting in the way. I get that they're taking inspiration from older games, but those games are dead for a reason and the inspiration should really be just that and then modernized.

Basically, these guys used a war game's loop as an example for the whole premise behind how they're designing the game, but based what I'm seeing now, they've never actually played one. Resources should be asymmetrical to the extreme and guilds/factions should start thinking about strategic issues right away, like how they're going to get stone or food come winter, etc.

You know, the kind of stuff that kingdoms actually fight over. Right now it's just the same 'ol keep trading sieges every other PvE MMO already does better with a whole lot of boring grind in between, and all for the vague hope of being in the top 3 otherwise you remain stagnant.

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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