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Player Retention


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Agreed. However, smaller map will not help, that hurts the newer players and smaller guilds. You need the newer players to stick around and continue progressing after 3-4 months. If they run against the zerg from day one, they won't stick around. More map = more resources to fight over  = more players having a chance to actually DO SOMETHING = more players sticking around.

I have been part of a small hardcore gaming clan that has basically given up and moved on now because the Devs have completely ignored CF's major and yet fundamental flaws to the game. We were some of the stubborn few having stuck through it all, continually bashing our heads against the zerg-wall, asking for changes to promote a better gaming experience for ALL, hoping the designers would figure it out over time. Alas, the game has been around long enough to know that this design team only will listen to the 2-3 larger guilds' voices believing this is the "community input" they promised. Complete and total failure on the design team. We log into CF for this last campaign, and you have One guild running around STILL in groups of 20 killing every 3 man, 5 man, 7 man guild that is clinging for life in this game. There is your "community", ACE. Enjoy.

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I approve this message, and I've been saying it for a while now. Your game is openly hostile to the majority of its player base in its current form. You need a working difficulty ramp. You need a

Crowfall has many problems, i know youre working on some of them ACE but you seem woefully ignorant of others. Player retention for crowfall is the worst ive seen in a game, there are some problems wi

Make dregs guild only. As it stands Earth, Moon, and Sun only exist as cannon fodder for bigger guilds. Before you say no, go scroll through the leaderboards on earth sun and moon and look at the amou

6 hours ago, Helix said:

As much as it hurts me (and my wallet) to say this, I think the game is just inherently flawed. The devs were banking on the players being the content, but the things they have in the world are not interesting or fun, so people just don't do them. It's a vicious cycle that feeds into itself and we end up with people either bored, disinterested, or disillusioned. Part of the reason they removed passive training is to get people out in the world and progressing their trade, but I'm not sure that will pan out like they want. It's a sad thing, that the game in the trailer (on the front page) looks more interesting than the actual game itself.

I think my biggest issues with the game is that combat feels more watered down; most likely due to technical limitations. Gear is way too important, and this factors in to the game revolving around "who has more"; both stats power wise and man power. The generic nature of the world just caps off the generic and bland feeling of everything else in the game.

I think it's fixable, but by the time they do fix it I'm not sure anyone will really care. Mortal Online 2, Profane and even Corepunk look way more interesting.

100 percent agree. 

The foundation of this game is poor. I'd almost say they should pivot at this point and build a siege game without the robust crafting/gearing/resource aspect of it. Turn it into a feudal survival type game, but with big groups.

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When I see vet alpha/beta testers talking about player retention the first thing I think of is that they have already invested 4+ years into a game that was unfinished and could change at any moment. If the Alpha state can retain you guys for that long... I have no worries that when its actually done an meant to be played as hard as you guys tested it, that the people playing it will stay just as long.

 

Some of you guys need to take a step back play something else for a year. I don't know a single game that I could play for 4 years and not feel burned out on.

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2 hours ago, TheMap said:

When I see vet alpha/beta testers talking about player retention the first thing I think of is that they have already invested 4+ years into a game that was unfinished and could change at any moment. If the Alpha state can retain you guys for that long... I have no worries that when its actually done an meant to be played as hard as you guys tested it, that the people playing it will stay just as long.

Some of you guys need to take a step back play something else for a year. I don't know a single game that I could play for 4 years and not feel burned out on.

Don't believe I've ever left a game because I was burned out.

Major game changes I don't enjoy, low population, game flaws that I can't stand, and simply something new and shiny coming along are usually what gets me to drop games.

I'm in no way burned out on Crowfall, I want to enjoy it, but several of the above reasons do apply to why I don't.

Considering plenty have come and went after hours, days, weeks, a month it doesn't seem like it is mainly a burn out reason for the state of the population and the feedback being provided.

Haven't heard of any plans in the coming updates or "years" to change what is happening.

Seems like the game is hitting a stride for launch, but overall it isn't going in a direction that will lead to a successful game.

Just because a handful of folks have put up with or actually enjoy what Crowfall has been for the last 5 years doesn't mean they or more important the much larger player base will in a year or whenever.

 


 

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With the business with the new entity for the game engine, my guess is ACE realizes they are failing to make a game people want to play, are setting up their investors to cash in from the licensing of the tools they've created, and have already started working on the concept for their next game.

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You can't retain players without a game for them to play. Literally everyone who gets a free beta invite (including me) expects the game to be late beta, not mid alpha. Practically nobody who signs up for these beta invites is interested in testing (this is the rule I am an exception to), they want to try playing the game before release.

 

The two extremes of feedback I have seen are roughly:

1) this is a straight up money grab and not a serious effort at game development

and

2) wow, earlier in development than I was expecting but I checked it out anyway, here are the most glaring issues I found and here are some things I like; looks like this could become a decent game and I will check back in a year or so to see how it has progressed.

 

My own initial view was per #2 but the more I have seen of development and the more I have learned about the game from testing the more I gravitate towards #1. I do not ascribe any malice to the developers, I see enough to make me think the developers are sincere in their efforts but just lacking in competence/clarity of vision.

 

All of the socks here are poorly made and some socks are completely missing. Some of the poorly made socks (like PvP) are less poorly made than others, but all are poorly made. Not horribly bad for a game in mid alpha, but it is horribly bad for a game in late beta.

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A game sold as a PVP game, increasingly focusing on PVE.
What we see today: instead of looking for ideas that promote PVP, you are looking for ideas to promote PVE.

On the other hand, the game is boring. There's nothing to do.
Harvest, harvest, harvest, ...

You have been developing the game for more than 5 years. What is the final idea of this project? Tell us! Or are you changing on the fly?

What is the plan?. To play PVP will we have to dedicate 80% of our time to PVE? is that the final idea of the game?

Edited by Xuten

____ Xuten RR ______________________________

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Long time since I have posted or truly played Crowfall. Came in to test the new stuff quickly and left just as quickly.

Original view on how Crowfall should be and feel was great, yet at some point during the road the "game" started to feel more and more impossible to achieve and staying further from the original path.

I won't start listing all the issues the project has, as all of that has been covered more than a dozen times on the forums by others. I will however say this: I lost hope of this project ever reaching the status of a complete game a long time ago and haven't truly seen anything to re-insure me that it would turn around. Just seems like a project that will never finish, or if it does it will be a incomplete wreckage just to cash in the last dollars before the funeral.

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2 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

With the business with the new entity for the game engine, my guess is ACE realizes they are failing to make a game people want to play, are setting up their investors to cash in from the licensing of the tools they've created, and have already started working on the concept for their next game.

Quite a few systems in crowfall that were changed or added make no sense unless it was to flesh out the engine for another game that needed such a system. For a time i believed some of the changes were to help monetize the game later on...

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11 hours ago, Nervontuxis said:

Just seems like a project that will never finish, or if it does it will be a incomplete wreckage just to cash in the last dollars before the funeral.

"I pray that you are wrong." And fear that you are right. - A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand 

Edited by RikForFun

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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I approve this message, and I've been saying it for a while now.

Your game is openly hostile to the majority of its player base in its current form. You need a working difficulty ramp. You need a reason for people to care about dregs divine favor beyond the top 3 scoring awards. You need to figure out how to engage the majority, not the minority of players with your core throne war systems. You need to decide if you're making a game about throne war or a game about grinding items for the majority of the time to engage in campaign goals the minority of the time. You need to decide if you're building a game around rapid resetting campaigns with minimal connective tissue or a sisyphean economic marathon.

5 Buddy codes are good for nothing at this point as everyone I know is already in my guild, and the majority of them have quit until you, and I quote "un-f*ck" the game.

Crowfall is somehow less fun than it has ever been. I have less desire to log in than ever. My guild scarcely plays together any more because they're all chasing individual advancement doing individual disparate activities, and interacting mostly through EK chests if they play at all.

You said you axed passive training without really trying to meaningfully iterate on it because it "wasn't fun" and that is an excellent reason to make sweeping changes to core systems. I encourage you to look at every system in the game under this lens. And ask yourself who finds each system fun, and if that is enough people to justify its current state.

I implore you to take a hard look not at individual systems but the entire closed loop of your game and ask yourself if it is fun. New players overwhelmingly don't think it is fun. Still. Even with the new active progression. Veterans in a growing ratio are telling you it isn't fun for one reason or another, and are telling you you're missing the mark with the fixes you are applying more often than not. Your insistence on over-complicated grind and a binary haves and have nots victory system is serving a miniscule portion of your player base. Those are the only players you are retaining. Everyone else is simply logging off and failing to log back in in ever larger numbers.

The customers you are attempting to monetize don't care what the excuses are. Don't claim you're not trying to monetize them. You are. You're constantly running sales, promotions, sponsored streams, and giving away beta keys. You're putting new stuff in your cash shop. You are selling a product, and the only thing that is going to sell that product is making that product something people want to buy.

That's it. No matter what the version number of label is, you're selling a product that people are only going to buy if it is fun.

Your creative director is retweeting threads about how nobody truly understands the development process. He's right. Consumers don't. They also don't care how hard it is. They also aren't going to give you money on the basis of charity. You are selling a video game so they want a fun video game, and they don't care how hard it is or what the excuses are.

You chose to open the gates to get data and the data you got told you your game was not ready. You are responsible for the current state of the game and how it affects your bottom line and release schedule. You are responsible for the fact that after five years you still can't push a significant version update without major game breaking bugs. You are responsible for your consistently low player numbers. Not your community not bug reporting enough. Not your pet influencers not hyping it enough. Not your backers not inviting enough friends.

You.

You currently have a game that only a few hundred people actually want to play. That is the state of the game.

I really want to feel excited to log in again, and I really want to see worlds filled to the brim with adventure and rivalry and dynamic player interactions and harrowing fights. I believe everyone at ACE wants that too.

Unlike some here I don't think you're just half arsing your way to the finish line so you can dump the game and become middleware providers. I think you've missed the forest for the trees with your noses to the grindstone and need to just take a moment, breathe, and honestly assess what you've made and what you're making and simply ask why it isn't getting the result you want.

I have given my perspective, but your perspective on the matter is the only one that really matters so I implore you. Get some perspective.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Hum. Yeah, also feeling that the game took a bad turn somewhere last year. I think ace should close the live service for another 3-6 months to rework the integration of all concepts.

The main problem right now is that they are micromanaging, trying to answer all the small and big issues players have with their unfinished game. How can they put in place a complete integration of the pieces while having to manage live all the problems each changes are bringing?

To ace, do like last year. Close the live service and work on revamping the game and putting the pieces together. In 6 months, most players will return to try 7.0. Keeping a live service right now is doing more harm than good. It's eroding the community and burning out veterans.

I still think the game has the pieces to work but it will take time and inspiration to put the game back on track. At the end, all players (and dev more than all) want a fun throne similator experience. Hard to find inspiration when most of the community is criticizing, day after day. Close live servers, take a deep breath, read community comment, analyze them, select the best ideas and add them to yours. Reopen in 6 month and most will return!

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

I approve this message, and I've been saying it for a while now.

Your game is openly hostile to the majority of its player base in its current form. You need a working difficulty ramp. You need a reason for people to care about dregs divine favor beyond the top 3 scoring awards. You need to figure out how to engage the majority, not the minority of players with your core throne war systems. You need to decide if you're making a game about throne war or a game about grinding items for the majority of the time to engage in campaign goals the minority of the time. You need to decide if you're building a game around rapid resetting campaigns with minimal connective tissue or a sisyphean economic marathon.

5 Buddy codes are good for nothing at this point as everyone I know is already in my guild, and the majority of them have quit until you, and I quote "un-f*ck" the game.

Crowfall is somehow less fun than it has ever been. I have less desire to log in than ever. My guild scarcely plays together any more because they're all chasing individual advancement doing individual disparate activities, and interacting mostly through EK chests if they play at all.

You said you axed passive training without really trying to meaningfully iterate on it because it "wasn't fun" and that is an excellent reason to make sweeping changes to core systems. I encourage you to look at every system in the game under this lens. And ask yourself who finds each system fun, and if that is enough people to justify its current state.

I implore you to take a hard look not at individual systems but the entire closed loop of your game and ask yourself if it is fun. New players overwhelmingly don't think it is fun. Still. Even with the new active progression. Veterans in a growing ratio are telling you it isn't fun for one reason or another, and are telling you you're missing the mark with the fixes you are applying more often than not. Your insistence on over-complicated grind and a binary haves and have nots victory system is serving a miniscule portion of your player base. Those are the only players you are retaining. Everyone else is simply logging off and failing to log back in in ever larger numbers.

The customers you are attempting to monetize don't care what the excuses are. Don't claim you're not trying to monetize them. You are. You're constantly running sales, promotions, sponsored streams, and giving away beta keys. You're putting new stuff in your cash shop. You are selling a product, and the only thing that is going to sell that product is making that product something people want to buy.

That's it. No matter what the version number of label is, you're selling a product that people are only going to buy if it is fun.

Your creative director is retweeting threads about how nobody truly understands the development process. He's right. Consumers don't. They also don't care how hard it is. They also aren't going to give you money on the basis of charity. You are selling a video game so they want a fun video game, and they don't care how hard it is or what the excuses are.

You chose to open the gates to get data and the data you got told you your game was not ready. You are responsible for the current state of the game and how it affects your bottom line and release schedule. You are responsible for the fact that after five years you still can't push a significant version update without major game breaking bugs. You are responsible for your consistently low player numbers. Not your community not bug reporting enough. Not your pet influencers not hyping it enough. Not your backers not inviting enough friends.

You.

You currently have a game that only a few hundred people actually want to play. That is the state of the game.

I really want to feel excited to log in again, and I really want to see worlds filled to the brim with adventure and rivalry and dynamic player interactions and harrowing fights. I believe everyone at ACE wants that too.

Unlike some here I don't think you're just half arsing your way to the finish line so you can dump the game and become middleware providers. I think you've missed the forest for the trees with your noses to the grindstone and need to just take a moment, breathe, and honestly assess what you've made and what you're making and simply ask why it isn't getting the result you want.

I have given my perspective, but your perspective on the matter is the only one that really matters so I implore you. Get some perspective.

@ACE-Tiggs @jtoddcoleman @Tyrant Please read the above post by @PopeUrban I too believe that you WANT to make a game that players will enjoy. How about a survey ASKING those who have stopped logging in why they have stopped?

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29 minutes ago, Communist_Puppy said:

They did that. See here.

 

That wasn't ACE reaching out to those who stopped playing. That thread was posted by @Durenthal . I posted in that thread

ACE May well have looked at the 109 replies in that thread but that's a far cry from reaching out to the Thousands that no longer log in.

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27 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

That wasn't ACE reaching out to those who stopped playing. That thread was posted by @Durenthal . I posted in that thread

ACE May well have looked at the 109 replies in that thread but that's a far cry from reaching out to the Thousands that no longer log in.

You are wrong. Thread was moved there by Tiggs and older players that left were asked to give feedback. On why. 

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On 12/21/2020 at 9:19 AM, TheMap said:

When I see vet alpha/beta testers talking about player retention the first thing I think of is that they have already invested 4+ years into a game that was unfinished and could change at any moment. If the Alpha state can retain you guys for that long... I have no worries that when its actually done an meant to be played as hard as you guys tested it, that the people playing it will stay just as long.

 

I've stuck around because of sunk cost fallacy, I've put more than $1,000 into this game, I'd like to see it come to fruition.

But the majority of people I've played CF with over the last 4 years no longer play it, so I don't think your assertion really stands.

I would venture a guess that 95% of the people who have played CF the last 4 years no longer participate in the community or the beta. Just a number that I pulled out of my butt that feels right compared to the number of people I played with that no longer show up.

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2 hours ago, Galahorn said:

Hum. Yeah, also feeling that the game took a bad turn somewhere last year.

 

In my opinion, the moment it felt quite certain to me that this game was going downward before launching, was when the beta release happened and instead of all of the thousands of people being super psyched, within weeks they were all quitting again - complaining about performance and lack of compelling gameplay. 

ACE got a ton of renewed excitement with the Dregs launch, and blew it IMHO

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On 12/20/2020 at 6:54 PM, Sirktivo said:

Like the issues with chest at forts? Then adding chest to outpost?

 

The new chests in outposts have driven all sorts of activity.  It's a "big prize" a solo can grab, "reasonable" for a group to travel to pick up, and a good reason to try to maintain control of an area.  

They also scaled back the amount of resources you can refine from chest block from 125 to 50.

The BIG problem with the forts was gold/dust chests, which are now gone. 

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The new chests in outposts have driven all sorts of activity.  It's a "big prize" a solo can grab, "reasonable" for a group to travel to pick up, and a good reason to try to maintain control of an area.  

They also scaled back the amount of resources you can refine from chest block from 125 to 50.

The BIG problem with the forts was gold/dust chests, which are now gone. 

Also only get like 50 or something per ingot and so on which isnt too much either now, i still think harvesting drops need to be increased a wee bit in campaigns. 50% bonus for factions vs faction (When we get those again) and 100% for GvG

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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