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What happen with the disciplines?


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5 hours ago, yneternum said:

Please, clarify new vessel system and disciplines... Q&A was really unclear.

This. 

Are we going to lose all disciplines again? Will it be a FULL wipe, or just vessels? Will those disciplines currently equipped also be deleted?

Pretty crappy that it was stated in a previous Q&A that the last wipe would be before launch, now we get hit with another one. 

Bad business to lie to your customers.

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6 minutes ago, Gravy said:

This. 

Are we going to lose all disciplines again? Will it be a FULL wipe, or just vessels? Will those disciplines currently equipped also be deleted?

Pretty crappy that it was stated in a previous Q&A that the last wipe would be before launch, now we get hit with another one. 

Bad business to lie to your customers.

The last wipe will be before launch. 

They never promised there would be only one wipe before launch, or that the latest wipe was the second to last, only that there would be a final wipe right before launch.

They have always said they wipe when they need to, but try to keep it as infrequent as possible. 


Not at all pleasant for us, in fact it really sucks, but also not a lie. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not at all pleasant for us, in fact it really sucks, but also not a lie. 

That's an understatement.  If they don't take the time to figure out how to send all disciplines to the bank, then I and several others at least will be done with this game for good.  It's lazy, rushed development to push wipe after wipe on your beta testers.  I've been playing mmos since D&D online started just before Asheron's Call and none of the games had multiple "beta" wipes like this.  Saying "we want everyone to experience the game from the beginning" is just an excuse.  People will make new characters and experience it anyway.

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41 minutes ago, Gravy said:

This. 

Are we going to lose all disciplines again? Will it be a FULL wipe, or just vessels? Will those disciplines currently equipped also be deleted?

Pretty crappy that it was stated in a previous Q&A that the last wipe would be before launch, now we get hit with another one. 

Bad business to lie to your customers.

You might be correct but I bet they meant the last wipe would be before launch. Would be very foolish to promise no wipes from now until then with so much work to be done. Sounding like launch is a long way off still. To expect them to continue to update the game as needed which is requiring significant overhauls without wipes is a bit too much. 

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Just now, nihilsupernum said:

I think it'd be a nice compromise if after the wipe, players started with enough level dust to get 2-4 characters to 30, as well as some special currency that could be used to buy 1-2 characters a full set of blue discs (and obviously a vendor to sell them all).

But then how would they see the same players play the same first couple months of the game for the umpteenth time?

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2 minutes ago, APE said:

But then how would they see the same players play the same first couple months of the game for the umpteenth time?

 

Not sure if you played this last round, but the whole starting feeling has changed very dramatically.  There is no umpteenth time, because it's only been a few weeks since that dramatic change. 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not sure if you played this last round, but the whole starting feeling has changed very dramatically.  There is no umpteenth time, because it's only been a few weeks since that dramatic change. 

What has been the dramatic change?

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13 hours ago, APE said:

What has been the dramatic change?

Passives gone. Discs attainable by doing things. However, heavy RNG makes it feel bad at times, and too easy other times. 

The grind for resources to have a chance to proc a disc is rough, since you have no idea how long it's going to take or how many resources you're going to need. I've procced discs with weapon smith after 3 weapons, and then made 19 until another proc. 

However, re-grinding resources to test how (obviously) bad the weapons are from white-blue is not something I'm a fan of, especially since it was stated that a wipe wasn't needed until launch. 

I had to forgo a lot of pvp simply to farm, since the system is so grindy and with the latest Q&A, it seems I'll need to do that again if I had the will to. I won't however, as it simply is not enjoyable to redo all that work not knowing if they'll decide to wipe a couple more times, since it seems they do it on a whim and go back on their word. 

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

For someone who is constantly pontificating about what direction you think the game should go and what is wrong with it, you are pretty ignorant of the actual state of the game. 

No. I simply don't find any of the recent changes to be considered "dramatic" so was wondering what you consider to be.

Removing passive training and adding more RNG grinding has not turned the game upside down.

Didn't realize I was pontificating by providing feedback. I'll bury my head in the little sand this game offers. Everything is fine. 😶

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On 1/6/2021 at 11:41 AM, APE said:

No. I simply don't find any of the recent changes to be considered "dramatic" so was wondering what you consider to be.

Removing passive training and adding more RNG grinding has not turned the game upside down.

Didn't realize I was pontificating by providing feedback. I'll bury my head in the little sand this game offers. Everything is fine. 😶

Moving economy skills from passive to active is what I would call really dramitic, since the production of the results of those economy skills is what drives the effective power of players in the PvP arena.

Prior to that change, there was literally NOTHING a person could do to speed the process up. However now that process can be sped up through effort, to the degree that a well organized guild can work together to have a crafting account with max "skills" in a very short time, instead of periods measured in months. 

A solo player can in a matter of less than a week of dedicated "work" (yes it's more like work than play currently), be further ahead than 8-10 months of what passive training used to give. 

The potential reduction of skill up time by 95% or more seems like a pretty dramatic change to the starting game to me. 

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Moving economy skills from passive to active is what I would call really dramitic, since the production of the results of those economy skills is what drives the effective power of players in the PvP arena.

Prior to that change, there was literally NOTHING a person could do to speed the process up. However now that process can be sped up through effort, to the degree that a well organized guild can work together to have a crafting account with max "skills" in a very short time, instead of periods measured in months. 

A solo player can in a matter of less than a week of dedicated "work" (yes it's more like work than play currently), be further ahead than 8-10 months of what passive training used to give. 

The potential reduction of skill up time by 95% or more seems like a pretty dramatic change to the starting game to me. 

With the removal of passive training players were given control of how fast they progress, the actual process and end goal hasn't changed.

Grinding mobs/crafting/harvesting for disciplines/belts and other resources already existed and has not changed, the amount of the grind has simply increased with more RNG drops. Having to do more of the same isn't what I consider dramatic, but I do agree removing passive training does have a large impact on all players and their ability to compete on their terms. 

The 6.4 changes are in the same boat. Leveling, vessels, stats, etc still function the same for the most part. There will be less 1-30 leveling, can't skip vessel quality (AFAIK), and stats will be tweaked. Sounds like it will require more of the same, but same none of the less.

Overall the game loop and experience has not changed. Players complain there isn't enough to do, especially in the PVP side and they give more PVE grinding.

I like the removal of passive training since they weren't able to do it well and trying to decrease the repetition of creating and progressing vessels.

Sounds like I'll have to wait until at least 6.5 for actual changes to the game loop and experience with JTC alluding to territory control and other such things. Adding more grinding and chests hopefully isn't the best answer they have.

I don't care about trying to win beta, I'm looking at launch and long term. Skip a head X months when many are running high quality characters. Does the game look any different? 6.3 and 6.4 haven't done much if anything to address this. They can reswizzle the starting experience and early game a million times, but eventually people make it to mid-late game. With the removal of passive training, the speed at which mid-late game will be the norm is going to increase. End game being unfinished or not enough has always been an issue for MMOs. I care about the end, not the means to the end even if the means is an on-going part of the game.

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44 minutes ago, APE said:

With the removal of passive training players were given control of how fast they progress, the actual process and end goal hasn't changed.

Grinding mobs/crafting/harvesting for disciplines/belts and other resources already existed and has not changed, the amount of the grind has simply increased with more RNG drops. Having to do more of the same isn't what I consider dramatic, but I do agree removing passive training does have a large impact on all players and their ability to compete on their terms. 

The 6.4 changes are in the same boat. Leveling, vessels, stats, etc still function the same for the most part. There will be less 1-30 leveling, can't skip vessel quality (AFAIK), and stats will be tweaked. Sounds like it will require more of the same, but same none of the less.

Overall the game loop and experience has not changed. Players complain there isn't enough to do, especially in the PVP side and they give more PVE grinding.

I like the removal of passive training since they weren't able to do it well and trying to decrease the repetition of creating and progressing vessels.

Sounds like I'll have to wait until at least 6.5 for actual changes to the game loop and experience with JTC alluding to territory control and other such things. Adding more grinding and chests hopefully isn't the best answer they have.

I don't care about trying to win beta, I'm looking at launch and long term. Skip a head X months when many are running high quality characters. Does the game look any different? 6.3 and 6.4 haven't done much if anything to address this. They can reswizzle the starting experience and early game a million times, but eventually people make it to mid-late game. With the removal of passive training, the speed at which mid-late game will be the norm is going to increase. End game being unfinished or not enough has always been an issue for MMOs. I care about the end, not the means to the end even if the means is an on-going part of the game.

Well at least now I understand your "umpteenth time" comment. 

Totally disagree about the impact, since passive offered almost nothing for achievers, and now there is quite a bit to work towards, so that changes rather dramatically how it feels while doing the same things. Specifically, when you drop a new harvest/craft rune, you get a sense of progress and small dopamine hit that was totally missing from the passive "experience" (if you could even call it that).

You might be surprised to realize, there are actually a set of people out there who enjoy that process. It's what many of the phone and casual MMO's games appeal to, and make a great deal of money on if done right. "No grind" certainly has an appeal, but it leaves out, or gates behind crafting RNG, the achiever's emotional fix.

Prior to this, you were totally reliant on others for your own progress, or time you couldn't speed up, which while I appreciate a certain level of interdependence, the volume and level of cross requirements all tied to finding the right passively trained person/group to support you, was very daunting and discouraging. 

The content itself hasn't changed much, but the way and how it feels as you move through it has. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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35 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Well at least now I understand your "umpteenth time" comment. 

Totally disagree about the impact, since passive offered almost nothing for achievers, and now there is quite a bit to work towards, so that changes rather dramatically how it feels while doing the same things. Specifically, when you drop a new harvest/craft rune, you get a sense of progress and small dopamine hit that was totally missing from the passive "experience" (if you could even call it that).

You might be surprised to realize, there are actually a set of people out there who enjoy that process. It's what many of the phone and casual MMO's games appeal to, and make a great deal of money on if done right. "No grind" certainly has an appeal, but it leaves out, or gates behind crafting RNG, the achiever's emotional fix.

Prior to this, you were totally reliant on others for your own progress, or time you couldn't speed up, which while I appreciate a certain level of interdependence, the volume and level of cross requirements all tied to finding the right passively trained person/group to support you, was very daunting and discouraging. 

The content itself hasn't changed much, but the way and how it feels as you move through it has. 

I belong to a large guild who have played together for 20 years in many MMOs. Some of our player members have lots of time so like the more active game. Some have little time to play and liked passive.

macdeath_sig.png

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1 minute ago, coolster50 said:

You know, they could've kept the passive tree and added this system on top of it. Either wait months to cap your stats, or grind for a month and cap your stats. Best of both worlds, imo.

I think that would have been a better solution.

  • Old passive tree
  • Harvesting/Crafting drops some item that can be cashed in for passive XP (maybe even an existing item like dust or chaos embers).
  • Hard cap so you cannot fill out the entire tree and have to choose to specialize
  • Respec as part of VIP
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