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With the announcement of an incomming wipe, you can forget about getting players returning now... A lot of people are not playing the game, more and more are notifying that they are going to leave till live or for good. The amount of testers leaving because of the course you are plotting is just ridiculous.  The scary thing is this doesn’t even seem to be something you’re aware of.


You refer to Vessels and character progression:
What if I want to change race on the vessel?  Then I must level again anyways, and what's the point then it makes absolutely no sense?!? What do you get is a new level with all the vessels stat… Right.
Instead of giving the character a new level - you should just automatically make all Crafted vessels level 30. Period.  To prevent players from opening a new account and just getting advanced vessels you can make all accounts “locked” – meaning you unlock a class by leveling it once to 30, and forever after that the class of the same type you create regardless of quality are level 30. (So yes you would have to level one of each class .. which we could survive I bet)

You define progression as leveling…
This fascination with wanting people to level it has to stop, you're the only ones wanting this. You keep writing about the progression and comparing to an MMO. Well in an MMO there is a story written guide, in the form of Quests. That is your character progression.
In Crowfall your character progression are the legacy of the things you have crafted. The battles you have fought. The poorly made dergss and giggles you've had while harvesting. You need to take the grind out of the game and make it an enjoyable encounter with others through the opposition of PvP. Not wasting our time with having to level and grind our buns off.

How the t
he leveling experience plays out…
 Then open up for a batch of Beta testers, give them more than 1 month to test the game.  You don’t need to force this upon the entire community, since the leveling experience is -not- what is keeping players in the game – What keeps players in the game _IS_ where your focus should be at right now.  If you want to see how it plays out then think about how you can make it more aware to new players that being in a guild or having a network is much more important in Crowfall than in other games. 

Does this really spell out “wipe”?
So i
f you absolutely must Wipe :
You could focus on doing it on a character/crafted level only.
Bbefore you do so you could implement that ppl can remove disciplines – without destroying them.
You could remove the "account only" tag on toolbelts.
You could ease the change a lot.. because though the vessels are great, it’s the grind for the disciplines and belts that is hurting everyone the most.
Ressources you should keep.
Crafted gear since stats are influenced greatly I can see why they would have to go…
This would make a wipe much more acceptable to many I’m guessing.

This doesn’t appear to be what you’re doing though - which makes what you’re doing feel like a kick in the balls.

 

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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I've been an MMO tester since UO beta in the summer of 97, so you MIGHT think I enjoy being kicked in the balls. I don't. I like to find out how things work in an upcoming game and I like to provide feedback to the devs and to try to influence the shape of the game to be. 

Wipes during beta, IMO, are to be expected and no big deal. BUT... many guilds have been treating Crowfall as a game to play rather than some systems to test. Most of their members will now take a break, Some of them will never come back. Don't do a full wipe unless it can't be avoided.

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I'm of multiple minds here:

1. Have it SMITE style - everything fast and easy to reach max stats! Makes it easy to get into but very little emotional attachment to pixels.

2. Have it LINEAGE style - everything is A GRIND! Hard to get into but builds best emotional attachment to pixels due to sheer effort to get them.

3. Have it KOREAN style - where RL cash will buy you actual progression and subsequently power. 

 

I hate the 3 option with all my being.

I think the best solution is a good marriage between 1 and 2 - and luckily enough ACE seems to go for the same thing. How much is too much is a matter of opinion and for the Hard Pushers of Crowfall every wipe is like a Freight Train running them over. I know that pain directly with my own personal efforts in the pixel world and also my guild where we have pushed for a few legendary discs and belts already on crafters and gatherers. However at every opportunity I remind myself and my guys that we play a Beta and What's the nature of that beast.

Am I Happy with the Game Mechanic changes? ABSOLUTELY - for the long term game health I think is a move in the right direction to keep good game mechanics relevant like vessels in this case. I think that a buff to mineral drops is required and not a big exp need for 31-35 levels - but this is a matter of BALANCE and not a matter of GAME MECHANIC.

Also a Wipe will widely open up the doors again:
1. People going out because they lost their hard earned pixels - understandable but it's on them for treating this like a live game.
2. People coming in because now they are not behind the development curve and also New People not stepping directly in an environment where they are at a stats disadvantage.

All in all I'm thrilled with the changes and I can't wait to get my hands on 6.4 on test.

/salute

Edited by Prometeu

Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.ro

 

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Lemme get this straight.

You want leveling a mino brigand to allow you to skip leveling a wood elf archer? That makes no sense. Race is THE fundamental function of the vessel you're upgrading. The necromancer literally requires different resource nodes for different vessels. This system is being put in place to get RID of the concept of deleting characters as a thing you're expected to do. Not make it more attractive.

The way this system works you only have to level that character literally one time. No more "level a green, and then delete it and level a blue" You level one mino brigand one time and that's it for all the mino brigands you will ever have ever. You never have to level it again, never have to grind out discs again, you can take that guy and progress from white to full on legendary vessel and legendary discs without ever repeating any of that grind. The only reason to even care about levels 31-35 is to upgrade the vessel. Those levels literally do nothing else.

Six characters on your account means you will level six characters, ever, under this system unless you choose to literally delete them. Under this new system the only reason to delete them is if you actually don't want to play them. You don't need to delete them to use a new vessel, you just hit max and apply the higher tier vessel, keep all your discs and xp, and get one more level that does nothing but allow you to apply the next rarity.

I really don't see why you'd expect to get a completely different character which requires a string of completely different vessels made from completely different materials by leveling something else. That doesn't make any sense. 6 slots. Level six times. EVER. Deleting a character under this system doesn't make sense unless you're literally messing around with whites or are prepared to give up SUBSTANTIAL amounts of time and effort developing that character.

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35 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Lemme get this straight.

You want leveling a mino brigand to allow you to skip leveling a wood elf archer? That makes no sense. Race is THE fundamental function of the vessel you're upgrading. The necromancer literally requires different resource nodes for different vessels. This system is being put in place to get RID of the concept of deleting characters as a thing you're expected to do. Not make it more attractive.

The way this system works you only have to level that character literally one time. No more "level a green, and then delete it and level a blue" You level one mino brigand one time and that's it for all the mino brigands you will ever have ever. You never have to level it again, never have to grind out discs again, you can take that guy and progress from white to full on legendary vessel and legendary discs without ever repeating any of that grind. The only reason to even care about levels 31-35 is to upgrade the vessel. Those levels literally do nothing else.

Six characters on your account means you will level six characters, ever, under this system unless you choose to literally delete them. Under this new system the only reason to delete them is if you actually don't want to play them. You don't need to delete them to use a new vessel, you just hit max and apply the higher tier vessel, keep all your discs and xp, and get one more level that does nothing but allow you to apply the next rarity.

I really don't see why you'd expect to get a completely different character which requires a string of completely different vessels made from completely different materials by leveling something else. That doesn't make any sense. 6 slots. Level six times. EVER. Deleting a character under this system doesn't make sense unless you're literally messing around with whites or are prepared to give up SUBSTANTIAL amounts of time and effort developing that character.

Level an Elven ranger, only to find you want a Mino ranger, and then have to level that anyways.  Right the current proposed solution to leveling is sooo much better. With the proposed solution you still have to grind and repeat everything it solves nothing.

Upgrading a vessel.. Gotcha, so you get the extra points from the vessel (like I already stated) yeah, but having to level to get those points even one level is still pointless.   It will be even worse if they have made it so you have to go through each vessel to be able to level up.

Deleting a character only feels bad cause the connection to the “Crow”hashen completely removed.  Its not the crow tht matters anymore.  Its what “host you inhabit”.  

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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3 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Level an Elven ranger, only to find you want a Mino ranger, and then have to level that anyways.  Right the current proposed solution to leveling is sooo much better. With the proposed solution you still have to grind and repeat everything it solves nothing.

Upgrading a vessel.. Gotcha, so you get the extra points from the vessel (like I already stated) yeah, but having to level to get those points even one level is still pointless.   It will be even worse if they have made it so you have to go through each vessel to be able to level up.

Deleting a character only feels bad cause the connection to the “Crow”hashen completely removed.  Its not the crow tht matters anymore.  Its what “host you inhabit”.  

Its not a proposed solution to leveling. Leveling isn't considered a problem that they're trying to fix. New characters require leveling, and that leveling is intentionally fast in order to get you through the "lets test drive this" phase.

It's a proposed solution to having to repeat levels 1-30 and redo the NPE just to upgrade a vessel. That was an actual problem with the vessel system, having to re-do the same "test drive" phase for the same exact character.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the problem they were actually trying to solve here man. They were never trying to make maxing out characters quick and easy.

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

Its not a proposed solution to leveling. Leveling isn't considered a problem that they're trying to fix. New characters require leveling, and that leveling is intentionally fast in order to get you through the "lets test drive this" phase.

It's a proposed solution to having to repeat levels 1-30 and redo the NPE just to upgrade a vessel. That was an actual problem with the vessel system, having to re-do the same "test drive" phase for the same exact character.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the problem they were actually trying to solve here man. They were never trying to make maxing out characters quick and easy.

Re-Maxing out character - and switching race.  Tell me again where the fix is at.  

Edit : know it's the maxing out u mean I just call it leveling cause that is what it is.

 

 

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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1 minute ago, Soulreaver said:

Re-Maxing out character - and switching race.  Tell me again where the fix is at.  

Edit : know it's the maxing out u mean I just call it leveling cause that is what it is.

 

 

There isn't a fix because that isn't a problem.

Those are two remarkably different characters, with different powers, different disc options, made from entirely different body parts. You may was well be expecting to switch classes too.

You have invented a problem and become angry that it wasn't fixed despite nobody claiming to have fixed it or even considering it was a problem.

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

There isn't a fix because that isn't a problem.

Those are two remarkably different characters, with different powers, different disc options, made from entirely different body parts. You may was well be expecting to switch classes too.

You have invented a problem and become angry that it wasn't fixed despite nobody claiming to have fixed it or even considering it was a problem.

Invented a problem?  You should look at the forum more, as well as talk to people.  Then you would see/hear the annoyance with -having- to level in the first place.  

Maybe the leveling isn't a problem to you, but then again perhaps you're the minority here.  The problem has been presence since the "leveling" was introduced.  It wasn't part of the initial concept and it was made so ppl could connect to their "character" as well as give people a "new player experience".    

As for the idea/proposed way to go around it.  Not by far saying it's ideal, but sure as hell is better than what we have and what is proposed.


 

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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11 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Invented a problem?  You should look at the forum more, as well as talk to people.  Then you would see/hear the annoyance with -having- to level in the first place.  

Maybe the leveling isn't a problem to you, but then again perhaps you're the minority here.  The problem has been presence since the "leveling" was introduced.  It wasn't part of the initial concept and it was made so ppl could connect to their "character" as well as give people a "new player experience".    

As for the idea/proposed way to go around it.  Not by far saying it's ideal, but sure as hell is better than what we have and what is proposed.


 

I mean I've seen those posts but lets be real here. The game has had leveling far longer than it didn't. It takes literally a few hours to get all your talents, slots, and everything that composes your build. If this is the hill you want to die on don't let me stop you, but it seems like a pretty goofy hill.

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I didn't quite get some of the changes.

If you upgrade to a purple body, then you see a better purple body (necro makes better/differing quality/stats now as his/her skill is better), can you replace a low quality purple vassal with a better stat'ed same color vassal? - Or will all vassals now have the same base stats, if they are the same color/race etc.

 

If all the same base on making, then this makes the necro a bit of a crafter-in-a-box?

 

Point me to the wall. I will run head first if required :)

Edited by Kowhai
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1 minute ago, Kowhai said:

I didn't quite get some of the changes.

If you upgrade to a purple body, then you see a better purple body (necro makes better/differing quality/stats now as his/her skill is better), can you replace a low quality purple vassal with a better stat'ed same color vassal? - Or will all vassels now have the same base stats, if they are the same colour/race etc.

 

If all the same base on making, then this makes the necro a bit of a crafter-in-a-box?

 

Point me to the wall. I will run head first if required :)

If I understood correctly, though I'm not 100% sure about it (just writing the whole process out here, correct me if I'm wrong):

Vessel-crafting works the same as before. You get a crafted vessel with whatever stats and additives you wanted and then equip it once you meet the requirements in level. Though I have no idea how common vessels are crafted, maybe common bodyparts are a thing now.

You follow rarity from poor > common > uncommon > rare > epic > legendary.
Newly equipped vessel completely replaces existing vessels, including all stats.

Reaching max level on each rarity allows you to equip a vessel of the next higher rarity. This means you have to progress in that rarity order and you can't go straight from e.g. common to legendary, that's what's forced on us now.

Whether you can have an epic vessel and then switch to a better or different epic vessel of the same race is something I would like to know as well.

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1 minute ago, Kowhai said:

I didn't quite get some of the changes.

If you upgrade to a purple body, then you see a better purple body (necro makes better/differing quality/stats now as his/her skill is better), can you replace a low quality purple vassal with a better stat'ed same color vassal? - Or will all vassals now have the same base stats, if they are the same color/race etc.

 

If all the same base on making, then this makes the necro a bit of a crafter-in-a-box?

 

Point me to the wall. I will run head first if required :)

Yeah. Basically if you can equip a purple, you can replace it with a better purple without losing anything, but if you wanted to move up to a legendary you'd have to get that last level (35) that the purple unlocks.

Levels 31-35 exist only to unlock higher tier vessels as I understand it, they grant no talent or attribute points. 30 is still the effective cap in terms of gaining power from leveling, and you only have to do that once on the free one.

What IS different is that you have to go through the progression from one vessel tier to the next since you can't actually level to 35 on a green, since it can only level to 31. This means everyone needs more vessels. I raised this is a problem as it means everyone needs more vessels and suggested we bring down the mineral crafting cost of vessels to balance this. Basically, if you want a purple, you first need a crappy version of the lower tiers to get access to levels 31-34, so if they don't change the ambrosia costs this could really add a lot of grind, which would be bad.

We also don't know how much XP those extra 5 levels require, and how much grind they add. Hopefully its not much, and at any rate should be less boring than grinding a purple from 1-30 like you did before since you can just play the maxed out blue.

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I think the changes are going in the right direction even if other  people don't. We have to realize we are testing the game here and a wipe is a great way to see how changes will affect launch.  

That being said I too am curious to see all of the changes to the necromancer, and I too would love to get a for sure confirmation on if you can replace a blue with another blue without releveling.  

All in all I am very excited to  get into 6.4.

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5 hours ago, Soulreaver said:


You define progression as leveling…
This fascination with wanting people to level it has to stop, you're the only ones wanting this. You keep writing about the progression and comparing to an MMO. Well in an MMO there is a story written guide, in the form of Quests. That is your character progression.
In Crowfall your character progression are the legacy of the things you have crafted. The battles you have fought. The poorly made dergss and giggles you've had while harvesting. You need to take the grind out of the game and make it an enjoyable encounter with others through the opposition of PvP. Not wasting our time with having to level and grind our buns off.

Yeah the leveling is hard to see as the progression in this game if you play the game actively. Leveling a character to 30 to me is just reaching the requirement to properly participate in the PvP element of the game.

This is how I see progression inside the game now:
The majority of the progression is the crafting/harvesting system.
Making this active led to everyone grinding it out who was willing to grind it out pre-launch because reaching the stat ceiling provided by crafting professions is now just a matter of time spent grinding.

==> Since the option to grind is there, the most "competitive" guilds will do it and set the level of the playing field by doing so. If you are not willing to grind it out, you are very likely fighting people with a significant stat difference.
However, that whole progression is done upfront and once only. You "bear" with it till all your crafters are legendary/legendary/legendary and now you always go for purple/legendary gear with every new campaign. This is imo the main problem: dying worlds but permanent progression.

I think there should be a harvesting, crafting and combat progression inside campaigns as well, which does not transfer to permanent progression.
I quite like the "starting fresh" feel in other games, where they wipe after seasons and everyone starts from scratch, so I would like to have a bit of that as personal progression in campaigns as well.

At the moment you can progress your crafters and harvesters to legendary disc & belt  without even entering a campaign.
Keep some of the permanent progression, but also take some out and put it into campaigns - would appeal to me at least.


Maybe make belts a campaign-only item which you can only progress in campaigns and can't be exported. Harvesting would progress the harvesting belt, crafting the crafting belt and pvp the combat belt, which could integrate the lost combat passives from pre-6.3. Level it with kills & assists or sacrificing skulls or something, idk too lazy to think about it properly - just throwing ideas at a nonexistent wall.

 

/edit:
Also a bit curious why ACE adds active progression, gates it behind a massive grind that needs to be tested from scratch and then few weeks later wipes that progress again while we haven't even fully gone through it.
It's already a difference between a beta and a launch environment because you do not face the same level of competition for resources. Right now there are no resources to fight over because there are enough resources for the population, so people can grind at full speed. This will obviously change if more than a 100 people decide to play the game at the same time. 

If all of this is going to be reset once again, it needs to be increased massively in progression speed. Otherwise no one will be willing to invest the time in it anymore until the game is launched. 

Edited by Koerpermilch
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Every other MMO makes you reroll to select a different race and/or class, so complaining that you can't change your race is ridiculous. Decisions still need to matter.

Regarding the wipe, I don't see it as a problem, but I haven't been playing anyway due to the state of crafting. Speaking of which, I was surprised and disappointed that they didn't mention anything about crafting in 6.400, beyond making some recipes less interdependent.

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1 hour ago, Bryant_H said:

That being said I too am curious to see all of the changes to the necromancer, and I too would love to get a for sure confirmation on if you can replace a blue with another blue without releveling.  

The only requirement is the minimum level. So it makes complete sense you can change vessels in a variaty of ways. You can swap for better vessels of the same rarity but with better rolls, but you also can technically downgrade your vessel.

The only constraint is hitting the required level. It would be weird to lock players on the very first vessel they equip.

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The way I see it:

The Vessel Progression change takes leveling grind away (escpecially if you are sticking with your race/class combo). So this is a good thing. Will it be enough? I'll give feedback, when I tested it instead of starting to gripe about it in advanced based on my assumptions.

I love the new LOBBY! ❤️ Can't wait to see it in animated form.

I am afraid that progressing in Harvesting and Gathering will be too grindy, but same there: I'm hesitant to give feedback before I played it.

Regarding that last point: I assume the DEVs are aware that they drive a part of the population away with Wipes. On that (after some reflection) I'm with MacDeath...

6 hours ago, MacDeath said:

Wipes during beta, IMO, are to be expected and no big deal. BUT... many guilds have been treating Crowfall as a game to play rather than some systems to test. Most of their members will now take a break, Some of them will never come back. Don't do a full wipe unless it can't be avoided.

 

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