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Long Time Motivation ? after Launch


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Hello, if I understood yesterday's Q&A correctly, all systems are now in game for the start of the game.
My concern now is, how can you get players excited about more than one or two campaigns after the game is released?
At the moment all campaigns are the same. Minimal differences due to the winning cards, but they all play absolutely identically.
Build Keep, run caravans, conquer forts, conquer outposts, farm / kill X for the winning cards
Personally, I lack the variety here or I don't see the long-term motivation that should arise here.

As an old Shadowbane player (approx. 2 years) we had defended our city it all the time.

In Crowfall I find the motivation to build an identical castle like all other guilds for every campaign, not very enthusiastic.
I miss different landscapes, such as Desert, swamp, mountains, lava, tundra, ice. 
Best combined with special unique monsters that only appear there.
These could then e.g. special crafting ingredients that only add a graphic effect to the look of the armor / weapons
flaming, ice vapor, poison mist, etc.)
Then as a guild you would want to be in the region once and the next campaign in another region.
I also loved the ability to find different contracts for Crafter and Guards from other races in Shadowbane. 
It would be great for Crowfall too if you had Elven or Elken Ranger Guards on the wall instead of Humans everywhere.
 
Edited by Famelor
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

ACE has build so far the stage, the puppets and the strings. What we've been watching/playing are the first 5 minutes (on repeat) of a many hours show. 

So far they have build tools. Now they are getting close to actually using them. I think this whole show is about to be unraveled and it might actually turn up into a roller-coaster. 

Edited by Prometeu

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  • Famelor changed the title to Long Time Motivation ? after Launch
21 hours ago, Famelor said:

Personally, I lack the variety here or I don't see the long-term motivation that should arise here.

 

19 hours ago, Prometeu said:

I think this whole show is about to be unraveled and it might actually turn up into a roller-coaster. 

These appear to be the two main perspectives of the game.

There is the reality of the current version which doesn't seem to have long term appeal, if even short term.

Then there is the hope of what could come if ACE pulls a rabbit out of a hat and what I assume most of us want to happen.

ACE can promise and say whatever they want, but until hope becomes a reality, we have what is in front of us. I want to be surprised, but my hype bubble burst a long time ago. Good thing is development can't go on forever and they'll either have to launch or not at some point. 

 

 


 

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1 hour ago, APE said:

 

These appear to be the two main perspectives of the game.

There is the reality of the current version which doesn't seem to have long term appeal, if even short term.

Then there is the hope of what could come if ACE pulls a rabbit out of a hat and what I assume most of us want to happen.

ACE can promise and say whatever they want, but until hope becomes a reality, we have what is in front of us. I want to be surprised, but my hype bubble burst a long time ago. Good thing is development can't go on forever and they'll either have to launch or not at some point. 

 

Man, Star Citizen is laughing so hard right now...

In all seriousness, my hype was never high, but I was hopeful. Too many things changed, there's been too much focus on leveling, grinding, person and safe zones, farming, and crafting and not a whole lot on actual competitive open world PvP. It's easier to get into and funnier to play in PvE-focused games right now, which is outright sad.

So you're right, there kind of is no long term or short term motivation at the moment, and I'm honestly not sure what the pitch is going to be for this game. It definitely doesn't feel like an open world PvP throne war simulator in the slightest. 

 

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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3 minutes ago, Nightmarian said:

Man, Star Citizen is laughing so hard right now...

In all seriousness, my hype was never high, but I was hopeful. Too many things changed, there's been too much focus on leveling, grinding, person and safe zones, farming, and crafting and not a whole lot on actual competitive open world PvP. It's easier to get into and funnier to play in PvE-focused games right now, which is outright sad.

So you're right, there kind of is no long term or short term motivation at the moment, and I'm honestly not sure what the pitch is going to be for this game. It definitely doesn't feel like an open world PvP throne war simulator in the slightest. 

I wonder how many SC fans will still be a live by the time it launches. Seems more likely we'll all be living in VR before it does.

Still want to play this game if it comes together but I try to think how I would convince someone to play it and I lack the marketing smoke n mirrors to pull it off. Buzz words and superficial appeal only go so far. 

 

 


 

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41 minutes ago, APE said:

I wonder how many SC fans will still be a live by the time it launches. Seems more likely we'll all be living in VR before it does.

Still want to play this game if it comes together but I try to think how I would convince someone to play it and I lack the marketing smoke n mirrors to pull it off. Buzz words and superficial appeal only go so far. 

 

I'd try it to say I was there, but I'm expecting another Cyberpunk 2077. Whole lot of time and hype to deliver what is barely a mediocre game with serious issues that might have been visually impressive (and nothing else) years ago. From what I hear about the development process, things are kind of a mess. But hey, they keep making money and that's kind of key, so they might be the one different case. Most games run out of funding and then end up with something that can't generate more, so they panic, and release an finished piece of garbage.

My issue with Crowfall is that, due to a previous job I had, I've been in a whole lot of alphas and betas, and I'm seeing all the same signs of games that ultimately burned gloriously, like Hellgate London. Most of the turn-arounds are usually extremely popular IPs backed by huge publishers with dozens of revenue streams, like FFXIV, Rainbow Six Siege, and ESO. Even then, release garbage now and then make a real game later after all the suckas pay to be your alpha testers for a "finished" game isn't exactly a development process to be proud of.

This has made me more realistic about game development. I can pretty much guarantee CU isn't going anywhere. Crowfall is a worse laughing stock than New World right now, and boy was that game a mess in the alpha and beta stages (and still is now), and the developers weren't really taking suggestions well either, so I'm not sure where it's going now that it's been delayed. 

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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1 hour ago, APE said:

I wonder how many SC fans will still be a live by the time it launches. Seems more likely we'll all be living in VR before it does.

Still want to play this game if it comes together but I try to think how I would convince someone to play it and I lack the marketing smoke n mirrors to pull it off. Buzz words and superficial appeal only go so far. 

 

I was a professional Marketer for many years, and a very good one. I can convince most people of most things. However, I can't bring myself to TRY to convince my guildmates that they SHOULD want to play Crowfall if it continues down the path they seem to be on. I keep testing and hoping  but I stopped HYPING several patches ago. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 5:33 AM, MacDeath said:

I was a professional Marketer for many years, and a very good one. I can convince most people of most things. However, I can't bring myself to TRY to convince my guildmates that they SHOULD want to play Crowfall if it continues down the path they seem to be on. I keep testing and hoping  but I stopped HYPING several patches ago. 

I'm an Amber backer and basically haven't played in more than a year. When you say "continues down the path they seem to be on". What do you mean by that? What path are they on? What is wrong/right about that path?

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with the remove of "passive training" and the grind for crafting/harvesting discs (and the gold needed) large guilds will snowball hard compared to smaller guilds with gear.

the campaign rewards are now crafting/harvesting discs so the biggest guilds can snowball even faster.
the devs talked about avoiding a "uncle bob scenario" in the first backer video, but they did a full 180 turn on that.

(I liked the passive training, it was a usp for me)

ingame mechanics that where ok but needed balance and polishing got deleted and replaced with rushed solutions.

bugs that where fixed already 3 times now need weeks instead of days to be fixed, 

GvTm2yj.gif

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22 minutes ago, Kunter84 said:

the devs talked about avoiding a "uncle bob scenario" in the first backer video, but they did a full 180 turn on that.

Despite making what I consider a big deal about it originally, they've never had anything to deal with "uncle bob" directly.

Campaigns ending and having no or low import is about as far as they've gone. Passive training didn't really do much.

Now without passive there is even more value and power put into permanent vessels/disciplines, it's a huge advantage for those that have them to bring in.

Sounded good but having permanent progression and rewards that carry over pretty much goes against any chance of "uncle bob" not showing his face. Must stick with eSport/lobby formats to avoid such things.

 


 

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Despite making what I consider a big deal about it originally, they've never had anything to deal with "uncle bob" directly.

Campaigns ending and having no or low import is about as far as they've gone.

That is exactly what the uncle bob video was about. It explained why they thought temporary campaigns that end, like a strategy game, was an improvement over permanent servers for an open world pvp mmo.

People read a lot more into it, and made a bigger deal of it, than ACE did.

 

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basically we need more biomes, siege schedules and free city building. things we've been asking for a long time... at least me and a few others. campaigns ending is a great idea . just need the other stuff

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43 minutes ago, yianni said:

basically we need more biomes,

We need more interesting terrain. Just look at all the videos showing up on these last few days, all on open field. I wouldnt be able to separate one from the other...

How comes we dont have caves? Or trenches in places? Those walkways we use to cross canyons would make a super interesting place to fight at.

Yeah, having a desert biome or a Winter world would be nice but if all it amounts to is differently colored background open fights then that wont be worth the trouble.

And those arent exactly difficult ideas to add.

The caves would be basically be a stylized underground temple. Those are caves but not really. Honestly those dont even need to be underground so even easier.

The trench idea came to me when I ran across a small natural depression. just a elongated hole where I could see I wouldnt be visible to anyone around. Just imagine the interesting troop movement proper trenches on a area would create. Even small scale would be completely different.

And those wooden walkways on canyons are just being wasted. Those could create all sort of insane 3 dimensional battles. Our worlds are floating islands ffs, how can we not have those?

Hell, even Tree houses or whatever with rope bridges. Wait! Move the Aracoix to those! Please make this happen...

Honestly I could come up with dozens of ideas of interesting terrains. Just think of something interesting and try to add it ingame. The lack of interesting terrains here is inexcusable considering the cost/benefit.

Hell, just add EK pieces and I will make levels ACE can copy and add to their to map generator as pieces

Just give me:

Trench piece (5m lengthx2m wide x2m deep terrain)

Those walkways used on Canyons.

Wooden platform to be used to make wide fight areas on those.

Tree houses. (Stylized Towers would suffice for now)

And make those connect to each other of course.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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19 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

We need more interesting terrain. Just look at all the videos showing up on these last few days, all on open field. I wouldnt be able to separate one from the other...

How comes we dont have caves? Or trenches in places? Those walkways we use to cross canyons would make a super interesting place to fight at.

 

We have interesting terrain, but we don't fight in it.

  • Players don't ride through the woods because hostile bog bears everywhere means they're likely to get attacked and dismounted. Then they'll have to fight, clear the bears, and re-mount. It's a huge annoyance and is much slower than just avoiding the forest entirely.
  • Players don't ride through towns for the same reason. Mobs will attack and ruin any potential time saved by taking that shortcut. Furthermore, if they're stuck in combat, they're at a disadvantage if another group were to show up.
  • Canyons can be even worse. They either require longer inefficient zig-zagging paths to go over top across bridges, or roundabout maze-like paths full of hostile mobs down below.
  • Aside from pigs, there are no other objectives in mountainous/forested/urban areas, so they pretty much only see fights if one group aims to attack another group running pigs or farming/harvesting). Otherwise players avoid this terrain as if it were lava.

 

I'd love to see some of that terrain along with fewer mobs, or even no mobs, and reasons for players to be there - outposts, forts, keeps, etc.

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On 1/6/2021 at 4:11 AM, Famelor said:

Hello, if I understood yesterday's Q&A correctly, all systems are now in game for the start of the game.
My concern now is, how can you get players excited about more than one or two campaigns after the game is released?
At the moment all campaigns are the same. Minimal differences due to the winning cards, but they all play absolutely identically.
Build Keep, run caravans, conquer forts, conquer outposts, farm / kill X for the winning cards

Personally, I lack the variety here or I don't see the long-term motivation that should arise here.

As an old Shadowbane player (approx. 2 years) we had defended our city it all the time.

In Crowfall I find the motivation to build an identical castle like all other guilds for every campaign, not very enthusiastic.
I miss different landscapes, such as Desert, swamp, mountains, lava, tundra, ice. 
Best combined with special unique monsters that only appear there.
These could then e.g. special crafting ingredients that only add a graphic effect to the look of the armor / weapons
flaming, ice vapor, poison mist, etc.)
Then as a guild you would want to be in the region once and the next campaign in another region.
I also loved the ability to find different contracts for Crafter and Guards from other races in Shadowbane. 
It would be great for Crowfall too if you had Elven or Elken Ranger Guards on the wall instead of Humans everywhere.
 

Historically there are about 15 games you can play on a checkerboard.

ACE has the checkerboard and game pieces made, but right now you can only play ‘Three Faction Circle Standing’, or ‘GvG Card Points’. Crowfall supposedly has a modular design and the ability to alter rules, kinda like using a checkerboard and checkers to play Koname, Tablut, Seega, or Bagh Chal instead of checkers.

Well it’s my opinion that almost everyone who has 200 bucks or more invested into this game will show up for launch. Even the dastardly, much maligned, and multiple banned Krat will show up on one of his 36 accounts. ACE has 3 months max after launch to win hearts and minds, if they don’t they will end up where 80% of MMO’s go to die. 


Campaign worlds are to Crowfall what Dungeons are to WoW. Dungeons are constantly added to World of Warcraft with new content every expansion. So too will ACE have to add and update PvP campaign rulesets. However it seems to me that nobody at Crowfall is that far down the development pipeline to worry about it. And Atraeus posted a thread about it a few months ago which got very little feedback or ideas from the community at large. If you want to see what I had to say about it, here’s the link 

https://community.crowfall.com/topic/28763-what-dregs-ruleset-do-you-want-to-see/

To me having a quiver of proven ruleset changes ready to go in that 3 month ‘make or break’ interim is mandatory. That is not the time to experiment with unknown rulesets like ‘Push Pull’. You guys remember that don’t you? 

Crowfall has other biomes. I haven’t seen the swamp biome since the Big World patch 3-4 years ago. I could speculate why we don’t see varied biomes on the map, but I personally think it’s a small concern because ACE spent much fanfare reporting to us about their parcel generating conveyor belt, they spent half a Q&A on it, and they were proud of it. This was years ago but I think they said they could add in handcrafted parcels whilst generating the cookie cutter parcels. Anyway don’t sweat it, worry more about performance with rocks and trees popping up in front of your mount. And all those glowy particle effects they put on resource nodes that you can’t see now, until you ride into it with your mount, and bounce off. 

2 years? What a lightweight I’ve been defending some Keep or another for going on 5 years now :) 

ACE has done a lot of work on Crowfall and sometimes I too wonder where it all goes. But I watched a youtube vid called 30 upcoming MMO’s for 2021 and Beyond and 27 out of 30 games will never see a nickel out of my pocket. It's that bad out there for Massively Multiplayer. I’m playing Bannerlord on the side, it has permadeath, I want to marry my Heir off cause I’m going to be playing him soon, there is dialogue for doing just that, but it doesn’t work, it’s not enabled. I can’t give my vassal a keep, it's not enabled, but in their predecessor game M&B it’s a feature. Many things are in the game but not enabled, and Bannerlord has been in development for 7-8 years.

You get my drift, 

Cheers,

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On 1/14/2021 at 1:34 PM, Jah said:

That is exactly what the uncle bob video was about. It explained why they thought temporary campaigns that end, like a strategy game, was an improvement over permanent servers for an open world pvp mmo.

People read a lot more into it, and made a bigger deal of it, than ACE did.

Campaigns ending was the big new cool idea but that video and other early talk had a good amount more that played into the concept of getting away from uncle bob:

Some of their comments of which some exist, some barely do, and some certainly do not:

  • Intensity of GOT (GOT has a scoreboard?)
  • Allies, enemies, alliances, betrayal, conquest
  • They showed a pretty conquest map animation of forces spreading across the land (Not standing in circles for points n chests)
  • Would be dozens of campaigns with unique maps, rulesets, and victory conditions (players could control outcomes and length of campaigns)
  • New worlds would have fog-of-war, need to be explored, dynamic landscape with different oceans, mountains, filled with ancient ruins, towns, caves
  • Different rules: Strength of magic, available races and technology
  • Survival - Seasons bring about harsher conditions (scary), THE HUNGER!!!
  • Passive Training keeping at least a chunk of player progression/power semi fair
  • No leveling.
  • Shallow power curve which does sort of exist but with the increase of RNG and grinding, the power curve is very time dependent still.
  • Destruction of Worlds (voxels): Creating and then knocking over sandcastles, claim TERRITORY, political power, fealty system, Bend the Knee

I'm sure guilds like yours would do well regardless, but for others, these features give more hope that one campaign to the next might be more then it is now. Even if those winning and carrying over advantage won, at least the experience would look and play differently.

What they've created is basically their Risk example but Uncle Bob starts each new game with a X% advantage over others. Might not be dominating without effort, but the carryover and lack of variation doesn't drastically decrease the issue these games don't seem to be able to get away from. Instead of a 10 year risk match it's a bunch of smaller ones with similar outcomes and experiences.

Win conditions preset, siege preset, no conquest, no building, no destruction, no passive training, same rules, nearly the same worlds, no environmental danger, no mystery, no political features, heck little social features.

Clearly there is a game with things to do, but I'd say ACE's hype, promises, and alluding to what would be has not come close yet.

Edited by APE

 


 

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