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6.3 Knight feedback. Attempt #3450918


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 @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman @ACE-Tiggs @Rhea

Knight Feedback

In short the Knight is lacking in Damage, sustain and design across the board. Anything the Knight can do other classes can do better. The Knight is poorly designed compared to other classes and has remained so from lack of attention. It's design has remain largely unchanged since hunger dome days. It may be in need of a total from the ground up rework like the assassin got, the worst thing that could happen is if the Knight gets another half baked "We'll improve 1 or 2 abilities" change that leaves the class mediocre for another 6 months. Short of a total rework these are the current problem areas IMHO with the Knight currently. 

  • Not enough Damage for a class that MUST get in close to the enemy
  • Not enough sustain via endurance / Resolve / Valorous Strike lifesteal
  • Awkward ability chains (Noble blood -> Oath of will) / (Onslaught) or Abilities that don't do much for their cooldown (Retribution strike) 
  • Obliterate Bleeds don’t stack.
  • The Knight has very little in the way of "Ramping up" ability. Only juggernaut which stacks to 5. There's very little ability to warm up compared to other classes that get stronger as they fight. 
  • Default shield blocking before upgrades is terrible and needs to be better. By blocking for a few seconds, you run out of stamina and are then CC'd to death.
  • 70-80% of Discipline and Domain choices are mediocre and not interesting at all. All Disc choices generally just give you extra melee attacks rather than much interesting. Fix existing mediocre stuff in Justice / Battle, then squeeze interesting options like barbed stakes, traps and other stuff into the Knight somewhere along the way.  
  • Lack of a central theme, mechanic or gameplay element to build around. Is it block? Bleeds? CC? Short cooldown spam abilities? Who knows...

Other than that, read ahead for my opinion on individual nodes on the talent tree.

 

 Chain Pull- Still messing up if and where the pull actually works. It needs to be fixed and reliable in a game where people can instantly dodge away 20-30m or Ult into stealth.

 

 Martial Weaponry - This is a confusing setup between +9 Weapon damage and +75 AP. Convert everything to AP which should equal around 165 AP. Further for a damage bonus this is outright weaker than both Myrmidon / Champion stat nodes and may be weaker than the Assassin node.
Champion = +150 AP / Basic attack +7.5%
Myrmidon +255 AP!  / +6% Basic attack damage 
   Fix1: 150 AP + 300-450 Health
   Fix2: 150 AP + 7.5% Basic Attack Damage
   Fix3: 200 AP + 5% Crit damage

Vitality - This is still bad. +450 Health and +150 Physical resist is still not really worth taking at all compared to….
Myrmidon Brawny: +450 Health / +375 Resist all        
Templar Grace : +400 Health / +300 Resist all
Assassin Shadowheart : +450 health +150 Attack power
    Fix1: +450 Health + 300 Physical Resist
    Fix2: +450 Health + 100 Attack Power
    Fix3: +600 Health + 200 Physical Resist

Retribution strike - A weak ability that isn’t worth very much other than getting to the stat block behind it. It has a 45 second cooldown, 15s uptime and only hits 1 target. 
    Fix: Increase targets to 3, increase damage done on hit, reduce cooldown to 25-30s. Possibly give it the Valorous strike treatment and give it a second ability that adds a barrier or something.

Noble Blood / Oath of will - An awkward weak ability that you have to spam constantly to regenerate energy and actually get your promotion bonus. This to me seems like a “Push button twice to actually play your promotion class how you want to” ability. Oath of will does not feel like a good ability on it's own. It feels like it's just a placeholder for Promotion upgrades. It feels simultaneously weak and necessary. Not a good combination. 
    Fix: Make an area attack instead of cone, combine the yell damage, barrier bonus and energy recovery into a single ability then adjust values to be better damage / barrier wise. Remove the dependency of Swordsman / Secutor oath of will upgrades and bake those upgrades into the promotion classes somehow or replace with something else for those two promotion classes. 

Endurance - The single thing that makes the Knight playable and barely sustainable. Currently it’s still awkward if you consider the fact that to heal the Knight has to put themselves in even MORE danger to get stuns to heal. And with resolve CC resistance, ongoing Minotaur CC immunity due to engine lag not recognizing positioning etc etc I’m not sure how effective it is in giving the Knight sustain compared to other Melee classes.
    Fix: I don’t know but it’s not enough to make the Knight sustainable. I'm not sure if it's the amount or the method but it is not as good as Champ / Myrm sustain. Knights can't dive in for nearly as long or nearly as far in as other classes can.    


Hardiness - An utter joke. +15 Health regen / 100 physical resist is a joke and whoever designed it should be put in the timeout corner for a few days.
    Fix1: +300 Physical Resist + 450 Health
    Fix2: Literally ANYTHING is better than current

    
Onslaught - Onslaught is a long winding 3 ability chain that is often canceled by getting stunned midway and has cooldowns on every portion. Compared to Templar’s Reproach ability. The first and 2nd tier abilities have ZERO cooldown on Reproach so if you are canceled out of the chain you can at least try to get right back into it without dead air of 2-3 seconds. Further the cooldowns on both final abilities are around 15s / 12s after the 30% cooldown reduction. The Bleed aspect of Obliterate is an all or nothing ability that often won’t even apply bleeds to targets since bleeds STILL don’t stack. 
Fix: Reduce cooldown of all 1st and 2nd tier nodes to zero. Fix Bleeds....

Bleeds: Bleeds need to be fixed. Previously Blair said that bleeds may refresh other bleeds but that is a terrible solution. Bleeds refreshing bleeds does nothing but drag out DoT’s and is “overlapping / canceled out” dps between classes.

Fix: Instead create “Rupture” damage. If a bleed is applied to an enemy that already is bleeding, then that target takes (Bleed tick damage x 2-4) instantly. 

 


Promotion class feedback

Swordsman- The swordsman feels like the only promotion class that is somewhat well rounded and fun to play. Though it lacks damage and sustain compared to other DPS classes that can do more damage and do that damage in more dangerous situations, the Swordsman has to play far more cautiously in comparison. Pursuit at least makes it fun to play.  Domain and Disc choices are boring.

 

Sentinel- The sentinel does great CC but feels like it suffers heavily in damage compared to other CC dedicated classes. Music is nice but the other domains are meh. 

 

Secutor- The Secutor just feels boring to me as a promotion class. Which is a shame because it's domain selection is the most interesting out of all of the promotion classes. 

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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This post certainly outlines the pain points of the Knight class. I personally like the general design of Knight abilities, And I enjoy that it's one of the harder classes to play in terms of amount skills being used and cd's being managed.

 

For me i think the general base damage of core knight skills is abysmal. this should definitely be brought up.

Endurance is a cool mechanic, but it's value is far too low given the distinct lack of access of way to trigger it. Expand this to trigger from applying snare, daze or slow, and it will make endurance feel significantly better.

Obliterate's entire combo animation time needs a serious look at, on top of this it's massively energy intensive to use, probably one of the most expensive skills in the kit.

Retribution strike just sucks with the current way thorns is. Make it something closer to the Templars ranged reflect, and it might be a bit more interesting.

Blocking on the knight feels half arsed. For a class that is supposed to be the king of blocking, It's actually pretty terrible. The block bonus mechanic doesn't last enough to be useful, and the sheer stamina consumption just punishes even a good secutor that manages their Oath of Will well. Why is the Block King a worse blocker than a dude with a greatsword, that just makes no damn sense. I would like it if blocking got moved to a separate resource from stamina, but I'm sure I will never here the end of the whining from a certain subset of players.

Speaking of the secutor, can well talk about the complete and utter redundancy of the retribution buff attached to redirected strike. It's completely redundant. I will repeat my suggestion, change the retribution portion of this skill to a physical monolabe effect, that reflects our weapon damage on physical hits during the duration.

 

Further on the secutor, Full Strength is absolute garbage. as outlined the knight doesn't have enough sustain or staying power to ever make a skill that requires us to be above 70% hp ever viable. Nevermind that 25% damage bonus isn't even enough to stop the secutor hitting like an absolute wet noodle. This node should just be completely changed t something more interesting, maybe a third barrier skill that applies to the group since the Secutor is all about mitigating damage.

 

I will wait to see what the stat changes bring, but as it stands, outside the Swordsman ( which is barely hanging in there) the knight is in an extremely poor spot.

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31 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

This post certainly outlines the pain points of the Knight class. I personally like the general design of Knight abilities, And I enjoy that it's one of the harder classes to play in terms of amount skills being used and cd's being managed.

 

For me i think the general base damage of core knight skills is abysmal. this should definitely be brought up. Agreed. Guild mates have recommended I switch from Knight due to this, because no matter how well I play, I'm still wasting time playing the underperforming class.

Endurance is a cool mechanic, but it's value is far too low given the distinct lack of access of way to trigger it. Expand this to trigger from applying snare, daze or slow, and it will make endurance feel significantly better. Having it act as a weaker heal that applies on CC application and on receiving CC you mean?

Obliterate's entire combo animation time needs a serious look at, on top of this it's massively energy intensive to use, probably one of the most expensive skills in the kit. I never thought about the Energy drain. Good point

Retribution strike just sucks with the current way thorns is. Make it something closer to the Templars ranged reflect, and it might be a bit more interesting. Yep

Blocking on the knight feels half arsed. For a class that is supposed to be the king of blocking, It's actually pretty terrible. The block bonus mechanic doesn't last enough to be useful, and the sheer stamina consumption just punishes even a good secutor that manages their Oath of Will well. Why is the Block King a worse blocker than a dude with a greatsword, that just makes no damn sense. I would like it if blocking got moved to a separate resource from stamina, but I'm sure I will never here the end of the whining from a certain subset of players. Yep

Speaking of the secutor, can well talk about the complete and utter redundancy of the retribution buff attached to redirected strike. It's completely redundant. I will repeat my suggestion, change the retribution portion of this skill to a physical monolabe effect, that reflects our weapon damage on physical hits during the duration.

 

Further on the secutor, Full Strength is absolute garbage. as outlined the knight doesn't have enough sustain or staying power to ever make a skill that requires us to be above 70% hp ever viable. Nevermind that 25% damage bonus isn't even enough to stop the secutor hitting like an absolute wet noodle. This node should just be completely changed t something more interesting, maybe a third barrier skill that applies to the group since the Secutor is all about mitigating damage. Agreed. 25% damage on something that has no damage to start with is..... bizzarre to say the least

 

I will wait to see what the stat changes bring, but as it stands, outside the Swordsman ( which is barely hanging in there) the knight is in an extremely poor spot.

 

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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I agree with a lot of this here.

  • Endurance is nice, but it's not enough. Knights (or more specifically Sentinel) can get a hefty amount of Stuns and Knockdowns, but Swordsman and Sentinel take heavy trade-offs to get to a similar level. Endurance would feel better if it proc'ed off Pulls, Dazes, and Roots too. (Roots might be a little much given how spammable Throw Illusion Shield is)
  • Resolve just isn't impactful. It heals 1200HP, regens 80 Stamina and 100 Energy over 4 seconds. In the heat of combat, that 1200 is gone in a flash and when you die, you wonder if it ever proc'ed in the first place.
  • Noble Blood and Oath of Will is a very awkward chain and is better off being 1 ability that applies a Barrier and regens Energy (along with applying Oath of Destruction/Oath of Protection) rather than 2 separate powers. The damage can be removed from this power if the power becomes bloated (no one uses it to apply damage anyway)
  • Retribution Strike is just a useless power and is completely outclassed by Thornshield. Retribution Strike applies a 15s Thorns buff on a 45s (reduced to 32s) cooldown and Thornshield applies the same Thorns buff for the same duration on a 23s (reduced to 16s) cooldown. The silver lining here is that they stack, but if you were going to use Retribution Strike, it's better just to take Thornshield instead
  • Knight's Block is just generally bad. More often then not, you're delaying the inevitable rather than accomplishing anything. And it's even more depressing when you compare it to other classes and powers. Templars can drop Divine Light and parry indefinitely while also healing themselves, Clerics can heal allies for the damage they block, Myrmidons can still attack and use other abilities while they essentially ignore damage while Berserk, and Champions pretty much get on-demand healing with Mighty/Ultimate/Brutal Warrior. Knights, on the other hand, get a damage bonus for the damage they block, but it only lasts long enough for 1 attack and they're most powerful attack, Obliterate, is at the end of a 3 part combo, so the damage bonus almost always goes to waste. Since I doubt Knight is getting a redesign before launch, the remedy I'd suggest is swapping out Resolve for Molon Labe, or just making Molon Labe baseline with Block.  
  • Uneven terrain nerfs Chain Pull hard :(. Rocks are understandable, but a little blimp of a hill negating the pull is very frustrating
On 1/12/2021 at 11:33 AM, Ranik said:

Martial Weaponry - This is a confusing setup between +9 Weapon damage and +75 AP. Convert everything to AP which should equal around 165 AP. Further for a damage bonus this is outright weaker than both Myrmidon / Champion stat nodes and may be weaker than the Assassin node.

I actually like the +9 WD/ +75 AP, it means AP debuffs are less impactful to a Knight than other classes, but not having +Basic Attack Damage really hurts Knight's damage

On 1/12/2021 at 11:33 AM, Ranik said:

Promotion class feedback

Swordsman- The swordsman feels like the only promotion class that is somewhat well rounded and fun to play. Though it lacks damage and sustain compared to other DPS classes that can do more damage and do that damage in more dangerous situations, the Swordsman has to play far more cautiously in comparison. Pursuit at least makes it fun to play.  Domain and Disc choices are boring.

 

Sentinel- The sentinel does great CC but feels like it suffers heavily in damage compared to other CC dedicated classes. Music is nice but the other domains are meh. 

 

Secutor- The Secutor just feels boring to me as a promotion class. Which is a shame because it's domain selection is the most interesting out of all of the promotion classes. 

 

On 1/12/2021 at 3:50 PM, UnderGrowth said:

Speaking of the secutor, can well talk about the complete and utter redundancy of the retribution buff attached to redirected strike. It's completely redundant. I will repeat my suggestion, change the retribution portion of this skill to a physical monolabe effect, that reflects our weapon damage on physical hits during the duration.

 

Further on the secutor, Full Strength is absolute garbage. as outlined the knight doesn't have enough sustain or staying power to ever make a skill that requires us to be above 70% hp ever viable. Nevermind that 25% damage bonus isn't even enough to stop the secutor hitting like an absolute wet noodle. This node should just be completely changed t something more interesting, maybe a third barrier skill that applies to the group since the Secutor is all about mitigating damage.

I gotta agree. The Secutor's powers and passives are poorly thought out to an insane degree.

  • Oath of Protection: Doesn't work. Has never worked. It only reduces the cost of the first tick, but none after that. At this point, it's probably easier to just give Secutor +50 Stamina rather than trying to get this to work. Not taking Big Hit Cost does have value and I wouldn't mind if it replaced Molon Labe on Stalwart
  • Redirected Strikes: The idea behind this power is good, but the order of operations is wrong. The Devs probably intended for this power to make you near invulnerable while reflecting the damage that you would have taken, but how this power actually works is your enemies reflect 60% of the damage that was reduced by 90%. If an enemy hits you with a power than does 500 damage, it gets reduced by 90% to 50 damage, then 60% of 50, or 30, damage is reflected back. This power is it's own bane. Never mind that this power has a 6s effect on 48s cooldown, after the 30% Cooldown Reduction. Even assuming you hit Chain Pull every time it's off cooldown, that's still a 20% uptime. Thornshield has a better uptime and reflects more damage more consistently
  • Full Strength: I can't believe this needs to be said, but Secutor barely has more than 100 AP. You do 0 damage. 25% of 0 is still 0. Secutors can't make use of this passive in any way. If this was just a stronger Sturdy, then it'd be fine, but damage bonus on Secutor is laughable.

I think we'd be better off if you combined Secutor and Sentinel and make Secutor a Control Defense rather than a Melee Defense. Drop Full Strength and Redirected Strikes for Macemanship and Paralyzing Shout, combine Bulwark and Commanding Vow (if this is bloated, drop the +18% Hard Crowd Control), combine the promotion stats and replace the Movement Control with the Hard Control (drop the +30% Control Defense if this is bloated) and swap in the Sentinel Enhancements over the Secutor ones.

At the end Secutor should look like: Stat Adjustments: Health +1500, Stamina +30, Final Mitigations Cap +15%, Hard Crowd Control +18%. Traits: Unchanged. Enhancements: Noble Blood now applies a Root, Pursuit now grants a barrier and stuns the next target with a shield attack, Chain Pull now applies a Root. For the Capstone: Slashing/Crushing Damage Bonus & Cap +10%, Power Efficiency & Cap +15%, Personal Damage Modifier +4.5%. The domains can stay as Death, Justice, and Nature.

 

Now I'm sure you're wondering, "What happens to Sentinel then?" Good question! For that, I only have 2 words: Bow! Knight! 0f6bfe8bc8f2059b3cd785809c942251_origina

In the Kickstarter, Sentinel was teased as a Ranged spec, and I see no reason why we can't make Sentinel a Ranged Defense spec. Sentinel would give Knights access to the Ranged Tray as well as Recurve and Compound Bows (so they're not dependent on Sharpshooter for them). For power enhancements, Noble Blood/Oath of Will can increase Bow Charge Speed, Chain Pull pulls allies instead of enemies and applies a barrier to the target, and Block can be used in the Ranged Tray. For a power, they can probably get a Barrage-like power that applies AoE weapon break (like Archer used to have pre-6.2). And for a passive, they have a chance to act like they're blocking when charging bow shots, or something. The domains can probably stay as Battle, Justice, and Music, though I'm not sure how well Battle will mesh, might need to swap it with War or Dark. I am very much in love with the idea of Bow Knight :D

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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42 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

Now I'm sure you're wondering, "What happens to Sentinel then?" Good question! For that, I only have 2 words: Bow! Knight! 0f6bfe8bc8f2059b3cd785809c942251_origina

In the Kickstarter, Sentinel was teased as a Ranged spec, and I see no reason why we can't make Sentinel a Ranged Defense spec. Sentinel would give Knights access to the Ranged Tray as well as Recurve and Compound Bows (so they're not dependent on Sharpshooter for them). For power enhancements, Noble Blood/Oath of Will can increase Bow Charge Speed, Chain Pull pulls allies instead of enemies and applies a barrier to the target, and Block can be used in the Ranged Tray. For a power, they can probably get a Barrage-like power that applies AoE weapon break (like Archer used to have). And for a passive, they have a chance to act like they're blocking when charging bow shots, or something. The domains can probably stay as Battle, Justice, and Music, though I'm not sure how well Battle will mesh, might need to swap it with War. I am very much in love with the idea of Bow Knight :D

 

Honestly I can see the Knight promotions being reworked that way if the devs wanted to put in the effort. They made a close range confessor with Sanctifier, they can make a long range Knight. Keep Swordsman as DPS (Current swordsman) and Crusader (Secutor + Sentinel) would be fairly easy to do dev time wise.  Then give the new "Sentinel" Ranged tray abilities on the promotion node and some useful ranged abilities. Currently it feels like Knight is stretched too thin between it's abilities being hastily repurposed for each current promotion class. 

 

Currently the sentinel has the odd trait of gaining more CC which -> more heals -> More sustain.... So the CC promotion is potentially as tanky as the Tank promotion. Two promotion classes are inadvertently competing for the "Tank" position. One via CC / Heals the other by CC + Block. It may be better to roll the CC and Tank into one for a more cohesive Tank / Control class then proceed with the Sentinel as a Melee / Range hybrid. 

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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18 minutes ago, Ranik said:

Currently the sentinel has the odd trait of gaining more CC which -> more heals -> More sustain.... So the CC promotion is potentially as tanky as the Tank promotion.  It may be better to roll the CC and Tank into one for a more cohesive Tank / Control class then proceed with the Sentinel as a Melee / Range hybrid. 

That's what I'm saying. Combine Secutor and Sentinel for a better Melee Tank, and then turn Sentinel into a Ranged Tank. I've felt like Secutor and Sentinel should've been 1 spec since they were introduced, but pre-6.2 there was a distinct role for both to play. However Secutor has felt lost since they moved it's key abilities to disciplines. (Which I like actually. It always felt like Shieldmanship should be a Knight thing rather than a Secutor one)

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2 hours ago, coolster50 said:

Retribution Strike is just a useless power and is completely outclassed by Thornshield. Retribution Strike applies a 15s Thorns buff on a 45s (reduced to 32s) cooldown and Thornshield applies the same Thorns buff for the same duration on a 23s (reduced to 16s) cooldown. The silver lining here is that they stack, but if you were going to use Retribution Strike, it's better just to take Thornshield instead

Not really. All of Retribution Strike, Thornshield and Blood Rose increase thorns. Thorns is capped at 75. There is another stat called thorns bonus, which is capped at 100, but AFAIK, there's currently no way to increase that stat.

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24 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Not really. All of Retribution Strike, Thornshield and Blood Rose increase thorns. Thorns is capped at 75. There is another stat called thorns bonus, which is capped at 100, but AFAIK, there's currently no way to increase that stat.

What I meant was, Thornshield and Retribution are both 50 Thorns, but used together they hit the 75 cap. They don't overwrite each other.

Edited by coolster50

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On 1/15/2021 at 7:09 PM, Arkade said:

Not really. All of Retribution Strike, Thornshield and Blood Rose increase thorns. Thorns is capped at 75. There is another stat called thorns bonus, which is capped at 100, but AFAIK, there's currently no way to increase that stat.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 7:34 PM, coolster50 said:

What I meant was, Thornshield and Retribution are both 50 Thorns, but used together they hit the 75 cap. They don't overwrite each other.

I can see why they have it capped but Thorns being capped at 75 and Bonus thorns being non-existent is an odd setup.

 

Regardless of that, In the OP I was speaking to Retribution strikes actual ability to do damage. It just feels meh when you do the swing itself. If they did 2-3 of the following...

 

  • Buffed number of targets from 1 -> 3
  • Increased Damage of hit
  • Decreased cooldown 
  • Added an ability chain rather than a single use strike. 

 

then I think Retribution strike would be less awkward in rotation. Look at Valorous Strike pre and post ability chain. Before it was altered it was a meh strike attack at best. Now it's easily the swordsmans neatest feature. Just do the same for Retribution strike as follows.

 

1a. Cone, 3 targets, Thorns for 15s   :2a Cone, 3 targets, grant barrier

                                                             :2b Cone, 3 targets, suppression or stamina drain

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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